Pace Board Meetings

[Busjack]

As I said, I attended the Pace Board meeting, and you can guess why--primarily to find out about the 40 foot bus procurement and the reports on routes 619 and 630.

However, that was a waste. They got to "consent agenda...do we have a motion to accept the consent agenda...roll call...passed...next."

Then "you have reports in your board packet...next."

So, I guess you and I will have to wait until it gets posted on the Awarded Bids page.

A few other observations:

• Most drivers (except one from North Shore) knew how to smile and show their Million Mile Award plaque to the camera.
• They said they got federal money for 9 more buses to add to the budget. I wonder which ones?
• Several members of the ADA community addressed the board, basically saying that they should be putting 40 foot buses on various S and NW routes. One seemed to be rambling, but then concluded with "If nothing else, if you can't otherwise get 40 foot buses on 606, take it away from River and give it to Northwest." Hence, they knew what they were talking about.

[Busjack]

Well, the answer is finally in on what was in the board packet.

And, according to the minutes, the winner is [drum roll]............

ElDorado National California, Inc., for the purchase, manufacture, and delivery of forty foot low floor diesel transit buses, in an

amount not to exceed $167,974,976.00.

So, you are going to get a lot of Axess. Bus 2010, then...

Still wonder why it hasn't gone up on the Awarded Bids page yet.

$401K for a bus seems pretty cheap these days.

[BusHunter]

Well, the answer is finally in on what was in the board packet.

And, according to the minutes, the winner is [drum roll]............

So, you are going to get a lot of Axess. Bus 2010, then...

Still wonder why it hasn't gone up on the Awarded Bids page yet.

$401K for a bus seems pretty cheap these days.

That's a nice looking bus. They must be happy with the eldorado buses. They sure do beat the Optimas CTA has. Hopefully they can get more of the Axess in the future, these are probably going to end up at South.

[Busjack]

... Hopefully they can get more of the Axess in the future, these are probably going to end up at South....

Unless the failure to post the award is like the 900 CTA bus debacle, they seemed locked in with the prices for options for the next 5 years. However, since there was the discussion in the September minutes where Director Montana asked about CNG buses, apparently the NABI Compobus pitch stuck in at least her mind, although Ross indicated that any would be at least two years off and probably involve a new division.

And up to now (and in connection with Powell's comment) it was pretty much implied that the first ones were going to South.

[Busjack]

On the other subject, Public Hearing Notices have gone up for 630, as well as the two Deerfield Metra ones (576 and 622). Nothing yet re 619.

I guess Hewitt must have pulled out.

[artthouwill]

Well, the answer is finally in on what was in the board packet.

And, according to the minutes, the winner is [drum roll]............

So, you are going to get a lot of Axess. Bus 2010, then...

Still wonder why it hasn't gone up on the Awarded Bids page yet.

$401K for a bus seems pretty cheap these days.

1. Exactly how many buses have been ordered? That math of 401K per bus doesn't add up to 167 mil.

2. I see they approved the 301 and 747 merger, which goes into effect with the Dec. pick.

What will happen to South's 2400s? Will they be scrapped or sent to North (Waukegan) to live out there lives as they could use some 40fts. Their 35fts seem to be in good shape for NABIs. Maybe those 40ft 2400s can retire some of those old Orion Is.

[Busjack]

1. Exactly how many buses have been ordered? That math of 401K per bus doesn't add up to 167 mil.

2. I see they approved the 301 and 747 merger, which goes into effect with the Dec. pick.

What will happen to South's 2400s? Will they be scrapped or sent to North (Waukegan) to live out there lives as they could use some 40fts. Their 35fts seem to be in good shape for NABIs. Maybe those 40ft 2400s can retire some of those old Orion Is.

The contract was for from 9 to 416 buses, so I divided the $167 million by 416 (since they were to bid on the entirety in annual installments, with a grand total for five years' worth).

I'm not in a position to say what will happen to what, but I assume that the 2400s would be scrapped. More than likely, South would get an overallocation of the ENCs, and 6162s and 6600s would probably be transferred from South to North or North Shore, especially since it seems to be a given that not even 35 foot buses belong in South. After all, the 2012 budget called for 1721 buses, although I think some of them may be OTRs, given the shift of them to 755/855.

Update: See here my discussion of what could be replaced, based on 163 buses in the preliminary budget.

[rotjohns]

The contract was for from 9 to 416 buses, so I divided the $167 million by 416 (since they were to bid on the entirety in annual installments, with a grand total for five years' worth).

I'm not in a position to say what will happen to what, but I assume that the 2400s would be scrapped. More than likely, South would get an overallocation of the ENCs, and 6162s and 6600s would probably be transferred from South to North or North Shore, especially since it seems to be a given that not even 35 foot buses belong in South. After all, the 2012 budget called for 1721 buses, although I think some of them may be OTRs, given the shift of them to 755/855.

Update: See here my discussion of what could be replaced, based on 163 buses in the preliminary budget.

While nobody really knows for sure, it does seem logical the remaining 2300s North has as well as all 2400s everywhere else should be toast. I've seen 2400s that really look bad at South and can't imagine the ones up North are any better. And especially with more 6600s appearing up there, it seems likely to move the ones from South up there. The bigger question would be the school runs in that area and what to do with overcrowding. As mentioned before, put a 6600 on a school run and you have a recipe for disaster. But if the budget is talking up to 172 buses, that means at least 1/2 of the 6000s would also be retired.

UPDATE: I misread the budget. It's calling for 40 of the new 40-foot buses. So only the 2400s will be toast, for now.

[Busjack]

UPDATE: I misread the budget. It's calling for 40 of the new 40-foot buses. So only the 2400s will be toast, for now.

I don't see where you got that. The only thing I saw remotely similar in the 2012 budget was

172 Fixed Route Replacement Buses ($80.130 million)

– The program provides Federal 5307 funds for 45 fixed route buses, and Federal State of Good Repair (SOGR) funding for 35 fixed route buses. In addition, Pace will use State IDOT funds to purchase 92 buses. [page 38]

Also, on page 40, these line items are indicated as NR=Normal Replacement.

So, if you found something different, please give the page number.

[rotjohns]

I don't see where you got that. The only thing I saw remotely similar in the 2012 budget was

Also, on page 40, these line items are indicated as NR=Normal Replacement.

So, if you found something different, please give the page number.

I see what's said as far as the 2012 budget now, but I was looking at the minutes from the last meeting. It's on page 4, the very first ordinance on the top of that page.

[Busjack]

I see what's said as far as the 2012 budget now, but I was looking at the minutes from the last meeting. It's on page 4, the very first ordinance on the top of that page.

It doesn't say that. I made the same mistake with the hybrids. It says forty foot low floor diesel transit buses, not forty forty foot ... buses. See post 2.

[BusHunter]

The contract was for from 9 to 416 buses, so I divided the $167 million by 416 (since they were to bid on the entirety in annual installments, with a grand total for five years' worth).

I'm not in a position to say what will happen to what, but I assume that the 2400s would be scrapped. More than likely, South would get an overallocation of the ENCs, and 6162s and 6600s would probably be transferred from South to North or North Shore, especially since it seems to be a given that not even 35 foot buses belong in South. After all, the 2012 budget called for 1721 buses, although I think some of them may be OTRs, given the shift of them to 755/855.

Update: See here my discussion of what could be replaced, based on 163 buses in the preliminary budget.

It would seem to me the contract is for up to 416, if they exercise all the options. $167 million pays for all that based on $401K per bus. With the budget calling for only 163 buses this year, it looks like this is a multi-year contract. Although they would only need about 260 buses if they planned on retiring #6000's, #2400's and the #2300's that are left. The only reason to order beyond that would be to expand the fleet.

[Busjack]

It would seem to me the contract is for up to 416, if they exercise all the options. $167 million pays for all that based on $401K per bus. With the budget calling for only 163 buses this year, it looks like this is a multi-year contract. Although they would only need about 260 buses if they planned on retiring #6000's, #2400's and the #2300's that are left. The only reason to order beyond that would be to expand the fleet.

I said that it was a five year contract. The end of the 5 years would bring you to 2016 or so, which means anything acquired in 2003 would be eligible for replacement, i.e. all the 6162s and 6600s. So, add another 182 buses to your calculation (plus I guess 6156-6161, listed as 2004).

[rotjohns]

I said that it was a five year contract. The end of the 5 years would bring you to 2016 or so, which means anything acquired in 2003 would be eligible for replacement, i.e. all the 6162s and 6600s. So, add another 183 buses to your calculation (plus I guess 6156-6161, listed as 2004).

What this all boils down to everything that's being said in the budget and board meetings is circling around the fact Pace is going back to 40 footers for the future, which I am glad because clearly they have no clue what to do with the 6600s as they are all over the place.

[Busjack]

What this all boils down to everything that's being said in the budget and board meetings is circling around the fact Pace is going back to 40 footers for the future, which I am glad because clearly they have no clue what to do with the 6600s as they are all over the place.

That seems to be the case, although I still wonder about Waukegan, which seems too big for 30 footers, but only has marginal need for 40 footers for school routes and maybe 565. However, for the reason you state, I've always claimed that the 35 foot low floor was a mistake, unless there was some justification based on the back door, but it is apparent that in 2003, Pace had 84 35 footers of the 2000 series, so they bought that many 6600s.

For that matter (and closer to you), did putting the 2742s in Joliet indicate that there never was any need for the direct replacement of 35 and 40 footers with NABIs of the same size in 2003? Or did ridership just drop that precipitously?

[rotjohns]

That seems to be the case, although I still wonder about Waukegan, which seems too big for 30 footers, but only has marginal need for 40 footers for school routes and maybe 565. However, for the reason you state, I've always claimed that the 35 foot low floor was a mistake, unless there was some justification based on the back door, but it is apparent that in 2003, Pace had 84 35 footers of the 2000 series, so they bought that many 6600s.

For that matter (and closer to you), did putting the 2742s in Joliet indicate that there never was any need for the direct replacement of 35 and 40 footers with NABIs of the same size in 2003? Or did ridership just drop that precipitously?

Every time I go down to downtown Joliet (which isn't often), I never ever see any buses with standing room only. And that includes rush hour. 501 and 507 are their busiest routes aside from the 834, but they also have a couple of school routes. I've never seen the crowd on those school routes, but I would think if there was an overcrowding problem, Pace would have rectified it by now. So I don't think ridership is the issue, it's never been historically that busy. Even when the 834 is busy, I never see anyone standing. I think Pace just felt there's no reason to put the 35-foot Nabis there anymore and probably never needed to in the first place. Same could probably be said for Aurora and Elgin. So as a result, the 6600s seem "out of place."

It has been said that a 35-footer for a school route in Waukegan would be a mistake. But what buses could possibly go up there other than a 6000 or one of the 2003 Nabis? That's why my thought was to take a few 2400s from South and put them up there to retire the 93 Orions.

[Busjack]

It has been said that a 35-footer for a school route in Waukegan would be a mistake. But what buses could possibly go up there other than a 6000 or one of the 2003 Nabis? That's why my thought was to take a few 2400s from South and put them up there to retire the 93 Orions.

As I said above, South gets an overallocation of the new buses and sends some 6162s in that direction. Certainly precedent for that (such as South sending 6116-6144 to NW).

Then we can hear from pace2322 if the Axess buses are worse than the NABIs. :D

[BusHunter]

I said that it was a five year contract. The end of the 5 years would bring you to 2016 or so, which means anything acquired in 2003 would be eligible for replacement, i.e. all the 6162s and 6600s. So, add another 182 buses to your calculation (plus I guess 6156-6161, listed as 2004).

So that would come out to around 440 buses. So there may be a couple left. That would end the white/yellow Pace liveries (almost) and they would then have almost all buses in the blue livery. With that many buses they would basically be at every garage around here (S,SW,W,NS,NW,N, and maybe Elgin) and be most of the pace fleet. Eldorado would be to Pace what NF is to CTA.

[artthouwill]

1. Exactly how many buses have been ordered? That math of 401K per bus doesn't add up to 167 mil.

2. I see they approved the 301 and 747 merger, which goes into effect with the Dec. pick.

Already there are 301 signs posted on Roosevelt westbound between Summit (Villa Park) and Park (Glen Ellyn).

The 747 signs are still up eastbound.

Along York Rd, 301 has replaced 747 on the signs as well.

New 301 schedule:

http://www.pacebus.com/pdf/previews/FP-301.pdf

http://www.pacebus.com/pdf/previews/301back.pdf

[RJL6000]

What this means is that when all is said and done, only certain #301 trips on weekdays will continue west of Ardmore Avenue in Villa Park. In addition, service east of Ardmore will be more frequent - roughly every half hour versus the roughly hourly intervals west of Ardmore.

[Busjack]

After 4 months the Eldorado National California 40 foot bus order is now on the Contract Awards page. From the $26.6 million amount stated there, it looks like that reflects 65 buses for year one according to the proposal, but based on the budget I wonder if more are intended in a year.

[BusHunter]

After 4 months the Eldorado National California 40 foot bus order is now on the Contract Awards page. From the $26.6 million amount stated there, it looks like that reflects 65 buses for year one according to the proposal, but based on the budget I wonder if more are intended in a year.

And guess what bus is on the web page for EN California? 2010. I hope that bus pictured is in a kneeling position or how will it make some of these dips. The #606 WB routing out of Woodfield may have to be changed. The back underside of the current eldos bottom out there now.

[ibebobo]

http://www.creativebussales.com/piggyback_bus_contracts/piggyback_contracts.php

[Busjack]

And guess what bus is on the web page for EN California? 2010. ...

That's been there a while.

The usual thing (maybe it is just my computer) is that if you go to Product Line, only the exterior Axess gallery loads in Firefox, but all the galleries load in Google Chrome. Thus, the second interior picture is the Pace bus.

I might also mention (I'm not using this for commercial purposes) that one of the mutual fund groups in which I have my IRA lists Thor Industries, sometimes under "Good Ideas That Worked" and other times as "Good Ideas at the Time." Of course, Thor owns ElDorado National. So, I can hope that it becomes a "Good Idea" that again works.

Update: I edited the above, since there was a noncommercial use for the link. However, I doubt that some paratransit reseller is selling Pace 2010.

[Busjack]

To remove one thing from speculation, the Pace Minutes state:

Director Wells asked when the new buses are expected at South Division. Ms. Metzger said deliveries begin in November.

Of course, at the rate they get buses out of the prep area in South Holland.............