Jump to content
railfan4072

7000-series - Procurement

Recommended Posts

Well, whoever gets the contract(Bombardier or some other company), I'm sure the CTA will want to have these cars as closely matched to the 5000's they will be able to train with. So, I'd expect the following:

  • Color LED Destination Signs(this is a given, unless there is something better out there around the same price)
  • Stainless Steel exterior(no color, striping, etc... nothing but a CTA logo)
  • Fluted Sides. These started with the late 2200's, were reintroduced to the CTA with the 3200's and continue with the 5000's. To look more streamlined and trainable with the 5000's, I'd look for fluted panels on the 7000's too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, whoever gets the contract(Bombardier or some other company), I'm sure the CTA will want to have these cars as closely matched to the 5000's they will be able to train with. So, I'd expect the following:

  • Color LED Destination Signs(this is a given, unless there is something better out there around the same price)
  • Stainless Steel exterior(no color, striping, etc... nothing but a CTA logo)
  • Fluted Sides. These started with the late 2200's, were reintroduced to the CTA with the 3200's and continue with the 5000's. To look more streamlined and trainable with the 5000's, I'd look for fluted panels on the 7000's too.

The last, according to Krambles with regard to the 3200s, and undoubtedly the second, are to deter graffiti, about which someone can report whether it actually worked. Seems like the best deterrent is a Target wrap (which was mentioned on some Canadian car show on channel 24.1 in connection with the same company wrapping their transporter).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

The #5000 deliveries should end by Sept 2015 if they go with 4 cars a week. So I don't know how they can expect to have #7000's when the end of #5000 deliveries happen. It's going to take at least a year for the prototype and they haven't even selected a winning bid. Then you state that it would take a year of prototype testing. So if they did want to start up with #7000 deliveries when #5000's end that window passed in Sept 2013 and each month of inactivity on the #7000's bid delays it another month. I personally think the two orders will be at least a year or two from each other. Maybe more we all know the punctuality of CTA projects.

I assumed the couple year gap (see above)--at least 3.3 years from the contract date, which probably now puts us into 2017.

The time for exercising Option 5 (156 cars) is 1790 days (about 5 years) after the contract date, or maybe 2019, and Option 6 is 2130 days (about 6 years) from the contract date, or maybe 2020. As I noted in connection with what is apparently a 10 year life extension rebuild of the 3200s in 2015, whether deliveries pursuant to those options come within that time frame, that implying a 4 or 5 year manufacturing time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if the 7000s will have LED interior lights. Hopefully testing that on the 3200s will tell the CTA if it's a good idea for them. I've heard they have the benefit of extended life and not needing special disposal procedures like florescent tubes, but cost more to buy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if the 7000s will have LED interior lights. Hopefully testing that on the 3200s will tell the CTA if it's a good idea for them. I've heard they have the benefit of extended life and not needing special disposal procedures like florescent tubes, but cost more to buy.

It looks like everything rail and automotive is now going to LED. I doubt that even compact florescent bulbs will be around for much longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still has to be approved by the board (but if the bid checks out, we know the board is a rubber stamp).

The surprising thing indicated in the article is that the price per car is about $1.64 million, while up to now CTA was saying stuff like $2.5 million. That was supposedly the justification for exercising all the options on the 5000s when CTA did (at about $1.4 million a car), and undoubtedly for Hilkevitch's statement that the contract had been estimated at $2 billion instead of the actual $1.39 billion. So, inflation was apparently not as bad as first feared.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well that's really good news. :) They should try and put the #3200's rehab on the fast track, even if all they do is put the led destination signs in place, as they may not have all the parts yet. I was noticing alot of the front destination signs on cars are not backlit, so it makes them hard to see at night especially with a dark color like the Brown line or Purple line. They are supposed to be, but no one seems to be fixing them. #2651 actually has one that works. It's like wow, that car looks kind of new. :P Also kind of cool is the fact you can see these led equipped signs about a 1/2 mile - mile down the track. It makes it nice on multiple lines because you have the ability to see what train it is from a distance. With these bus rehabs and purchases and now the "L" car upgrades, they will soon have a system that is kind of modern.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well that's really good news. :) They should try and put the #3200's rehab on the fast track, even if all they do is put the led destination signs in place, as they may not have all the parts yet. ...

But that still gets back to the contradiction that the 3200s are supposed to be a 10 year rehab, but the article says that the deliveries of 7000s are supposed to be complete by 2022, and the 846 number includes 256 to replace the 3200s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Still has to be approved by the board (but if the bid checks out, we know the board is a rubber stamp).

The surprising thing indicated in the article is that the price per car is about $1.64 million, while up to now CTA was saying stuff like $2.5 million. That was supposedly the justification for exercising all the options on the 5000s when CTA did (at about $1.4 million a car), and undoubtedly for Hilkevitch's statement that the contract had been estimated at $2 billion instead of the actual $1.39 billion. So, inflation was apparently not as bad as first feared.

 

Bombardier had real competition on the bid. They also have most of fixed costs of production covered by the 5000 series cars, so the price per car should be lower, and the timing is such the line won't be shut down long (or at all? too busy to check...), which keeps staff replacement costs lower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

   

Bombardier had real competition on the bid. They also have most of fixed costs of production covered by the 5000 series cars, so the price per car should be lower, and the timing is such the line won't be shut down long (or at all? too busy to check...), which keeps staff replacement costs lower.

It also brings back the question whether the 7000s would have to go through the one year trial if Bombardier gets a contract for something essentially the same as the 5000s.

While I see your point that Sumitomo probably couldn't underbid them, the stuff about "Buy America" promises is a bit of a smokescreen because anyone would have to be Buy America Act compliant, but I wonder if Sumitomo has any leverage because its plant is in Illinois. Probably not if federal money is involved.

I'm also a bit surprised that Alstom didn't enter into the mix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It also brings back the question whether the 7000s would have to go through the one year trial if Bombardier gets a contract for something essentially the same as the 5000s.

I was wondering the same thing. If Bombardier is making them, will there be any other major differences, aside from the seating layout?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was wondering the same thing. If Bombardier is making them, will there be any other major differences, aside from the seating layout?

I don't know what was in the last 9 or so addenda, but the general theme was that the two series were to be compatible, and they upgraded a few things, such as using flatscreen displays for maps instead of the mylar map in front of all the dots.

Others can say better, but it appeared that the main things being tested were clearances, cab signals, audio announcements, and the like, and I can't conceive of those being changed, or, as brownliner indicates, any reason for Bombardier to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if they will be delivering all #7000's to the Blue and Brown lines or will they mix the #5000's between all the yards? If they delivered non longitudinal seats to all one place, places like the Red line will still have all longitudinal seats. Being that the #7000's are going to be from Bombardier, I don't see much differences either mechanically, although Bombardier really makes technologically advanced cars for other cities. I think that's why the low bid. Bombardier can now shop in higher quantity lowering the price for shells and parts. All parts manufacturers have been established, it's just a matter of ordering more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I was wondering the same thing. If Bombardier is making them, will there be any other major differences, aside from the seating layout?

 

There's some engineering work to make the cars work with the different seating layouts. (how much, I don't know, and can't guess until I see the layouts, but not a huge amount, in any event.) I can't imagine them changing anything that really matters, like the controls or the propulsion system, or the basic shell above the floor. Everything else (maps, lights, signs,...) is easy enough to change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think there will be much changes regardless of manufacturer who wins the bid. This following paragraph from the Tribune here I think is for whoever wins the bid...

The aesthetic proposals submitted for the stainless-steel exteriors of the 7000 Series rail cars are similar to those of the existing CTA fleet. The CTA specified in its request for proposals that the 7000 Series cars must be compatible to operate with the 5000 Series cars.

The 7000-Series exteriors will be similar to the 5000-Series exteriors, which almost mirrors the 3200-Series exteriors. Fluted sides will be on the 7000-Series exteriors. Windows might differ a bit, depending on manufacturer, but the important thing is that they are the same power source as the 5000's(A/C) so they can be trained. That makes me think that the CTA may have 7000's and 5000's on the same line. And since Blue and Brown are not going to be getting the 5000's in the immediate future, does that mean they might in the future, as well as some 7000's, becoming the first line to have two different series of A/C powered railcars that are trainable?

Forum members say the 5000's will fully stock the Red Line. They fully stock the Green, Pink and Yellow, and will eventually fully stock the Purple, since they need only about 90 cars. Orange will have some 5000's eventually, but will also need some 7000's to retire any older fleet cars at a future time, making them also a line that will have two different series of A/C powered railcars that are trainable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think there will be much changes regardless of manufacturer who wins the bid. This following paragraph from the Tribune here I think is for whoever wins the bid...

The aesthetic proposals submitted for the stainless-steel exteriors of the 7000 Series rail cars are similar to those of the existing CTA fleet. The CTA specified in its request for proposals that the 7000 Series cars must be compatible to operate with the 5000 Series cars.

...

If you had read the beginning of this thread, this is not news.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I know. It may been to soon to figure out which manufacturer will be placed on the 7000s but I prefer not Bombardier. Such strong words about the 5000s being the 3200s knockoff though LOL :P

You can read up and see that its is Bombardier. They are working off CTA specs, many of which refer to the 3200s. Otherwise, the specs refer to the 5000s, but seating layout spec got changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can read up and see that its is Bombardier. They are working off CTA specs, many of which refer to the 3200s. Otherwise, the specs refer to the 5000s, but seating layout spec got changed.

In which I know about the seating specs but it's unofficial. I like that idea of it but I feel that Bombardier isn't the one to me because of the flaws dating back of 2011. I don't know any other manufacturers when it comes to rail cars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In which I know about the seating specs but it's unofficial. I like that idea of it but I feel that Bombardier isn't the one to me because of the flaws dating back of 2011. I don't know any other manufacturers when it comes to rail cars.

Tribune said it was the low bidder. In that there isn't an ordinance yet, you are correct that it isn't official. However, the Tribune said that the only other bidder was Nippon Sharyo/Sumitomo, which is manufacturing the Metra cars.

The article said that Kawasaki didn't bid. Another manufacturer which hasn't been successful bidding lately is Alstom (they rehabbed the 2600s).

I had listed here the manufacturers who appeared at the prebid meeting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tribune said it was the low bidder. In that there isn't an ordinance yet, you are correct that it isn't official. However, the Tribune said that the only other bidder was Nippon Sharyo/Sumitomo, which is manufacturing the Metra cars.

The article said that Kawasaki didn't bid. Another manufacturer which hasn't been successful bidding lately is Alstom (they rehabbed the 2600s).

I had listed here the manufacturers who appeared at the prebid meeting.

I think Nippon Sharyo/Sumitomo would be an extraordinary fit for the 7000s. It was a great acquisition when Metra got the 6000s and 8500s by them nearly a decade ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Nippon Sharyo/Sumitomo would be an extraordinary fit for the 7000s. It was a great acquisition when Metra got the 6000s and 8500s by them nearly a decade ago.

I say Kawasaki.Give me a R142A in a 5000 series shell with the Bombardier MITRAC 1508C and I will be happy...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Nippon Sharyo/Sumitomo would be an extraordinary fit for the 7000s. It was a great acquisition when Metra got the 6000s and 8500s by them nearly a decade ago.

Wouldn't make much difference because all the Japanese then provided were the shells. The cars then were assembled by Super Steel in Wisconsin, the ME ones by somebody else in Rochelle, Ill.

Unless our lying governor comes up with the money (like it is his) to keep it in state, I don't think CTA wants to pay the extra $137 million between the two bids, unless Bombardier is NABI bad, which it isn't. CTA accepted about 150 cars after the last flack.

I'm sure trainman can tell us if the ME cars are defect free.

I say Kawasaki.Give me a R142A in a 5000 series shell with the Bombardier MITRAC 1508C and I will be happy...

Considering that they didn't bid, and any bid would have to be on the CTA spec, wouldn't that be pretty out of the question?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Similar Content

    • By MetroShadow
      I was trying to see if there were any remants of old driver paddles, when I stumbled onto an old "manual" for the first-gen 7000 Man Articulated series. Take a look. There are a bunch of photos (interior and exterior).
      Edit: Including the classic Flyers in the thread too
×