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49 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

I'm aware of the service in the area, on a map level. I guess what my actual question was, why isn't the 331 two separate routes: split in pairs at 5th & Roosevelt? And was this because of established riding patterns I was unaware of (such as consistent transfers to/from Metra, riders who need Hines/Loyola, so on & so forth)? I was just wondering why I route that long didn't have a direct CTA connection on it's southern end.

Most of Pace West routes trace their origin to the suburban bus agency called West Towns which includes Cumberland/5th.  I don't know what the north end Terminal was prior to the extension of the  Congress/Douglas/Milwaukee (now the Blue Line) to O'Hare.   If you really think about it, 5th Ave is about 2 miles west of Desplaines Ave.  Like I said earlier,  the 331 serves Loyola Medical and Hines VA as well as Brookfield Zoo.   Thus Maywood has direct access to those places and the hospitals still have direct access to Forest Park Terminal via the 308.

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On 9/28/2019 at 2:50 PM, NewFlyerMCI said:

Does anyone know why the 331 doesn't serve Forest Park and the southern portion south of Madison or Roosevelt isn't covered by another route? Are there consistent transfers to/from Metra at Maywood & Brookfield I'm just unaware of?

The history of the 308 and 331 are intertwined. The 308 is the older route with the 331 being formed from the 308 in 1969. No reason why the route should have a cta connection when it a major north/south connector in the inner suburbs as are the 330 and 332.

308 - Medical Center - was West Towns route #8. Bus route was introduced by Speedway Auto Bus 9/9/21 and included service north of Hines Medical Center (Speedway Hospital) via 5th Ave to Lake St. From 6/22 service extended to Hillside via Lake,19th, Butterfield, Hillside & Harrison but was withdrawn 5/16/23. Speedway sold to West Towns 7/1/30. In 1969 5th Ave segment transferred to new route #6, now Pace #331. 

331 - Cumberland-5th Ave. - was part of West Towns #8 operated between Lake St and Hines VA Hospital via 5th Ave. In late 1960’s became separate #6 and extended north to Triton College in River Grove. From 5/24/76, route was extended and renumbered, basically creating present Pace route #331. That route operated north to the Park Ridge train station until 2/27/83, when the CTA rapid transit extension was opened, serving Cumberland Ave. On that date, route #290 replaced route #331 between the Cumberland station and Park Ridge. By 2000 operating from Cumberland Blue line via Cumberland, Grand, Triton College, 5th, Hines, C, Loyola, 1st, 31st to loop Maple, Ogden, Prairie, Washington & Maple in Brookfield. From 1/2/2004 rerouted between Hines & Loyola via Roosevelt and 1st. From 8/12/2019 service south of 1st Ave/31st St split into two branches M-F daytime. One branch to Brookfield Village Hall via 31st, Maple, Grand & Brookfield and the other to La Grange Metra via Ridgewood, Washington & La Grange partially replacing 304.  M-F day & eve, S day.

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5 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Are Pace services at Harvey & Des Plaines set up for timed transfers? And if so, is it between routes or between Pace/Metra or both?

Harvey is a pulse point for buses. Metra is a secondary consideration, but the timing there seems to be OK.

Des Plaines is not a pulse point.

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Upcoming Pace changes:

  • 305, 311: Posted Stops Only
  • 353, 358, 364: will no longer enter River Oaks Mall "to improve operating performance". The inference is probably that the mall is nearly dead and it is no longer worth direct service for whatever ridership remains.
  • 550, 600, 603, 605, 607, 610, 616: Timing changes to improve connections; some cuts to 610.
  • 612: There was a public hearing yesterday for elimination of this route, to be replaced by expanding 599 On Demand service hours.
  • 832, 834: Stop relocations in Lockport. The city had requested the stops be moved to 9th/Canal a few years ago, but now they are being returned to where they were before.

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5 hours ago, Pace831 said:

Upcoming Pace changes:

  • 305, 311: Posted Stops Only
  • 353, 358, 364: will no longer enter River Oaks Mall "to improve operating performance". The inference is probably that the mall is nearly dead and it is no longer worth direct service for whatever ridership remains.
  • 550, 600, 603, 605, 607, 610, 616: Timing changes to improve connections; some cuts to 610.
  • 612: There was a public hearing yesterday for elimination of this route, to be replaced by expanding 599 On Demand service hours.
  • 832, 834: Stop relocations in Lockport. The city had requested the stops be moved to 9th/Canal a few years ago, but now they are being returned to where they were before.

For all the work the 353 is about to do, they probably could've left it in the mall. Not sure there's actually gonna be a time improvement for that route specifically.

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12 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

For all the work the 353 is about to do, they probably could've left it in the mall. Not sure there's actually gonna be a time improvement for that route specifically.

I wish the 290 would stop entering the Lincolnwood Town Center Mall.   It takes 8 minutes to go through that foolishness & then end up back on Touhy. 

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3 minutes ago, strictures said:

I wish the 290 would stop entering the Lincolnwood Town Center Mall.   It takes 8 minutes to go through that foolishness & then end up back on Touhy. 

WB 290 right? Doesn't it go to the entrance on Touhy to serve the mall and then loop around and then out on McCormick? If so, why? No left turns from Touhy onto McCormick? I used to think the bus used the Touhy entrance of the mall exclusively

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22 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

For all the work the 353 is about to do, they probably could've left it in the mall. Not sure there's actually gonna be a time improvement for that route specifically.

Since the mall is the end of the route for the 353, this seems to make no sense.  If the route can't service the mall, the eliminated all of those trips and send all 353s to Homewood.

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On 12/4/2019 at 5:55 AM, Pace831 said:

Upcoming Pace changes:

  • 305, 311: Posted Stops Only
  • 353, 358, 364: will no longer enter River Oaks Mall "to improve operating performance". The inference is probably that the mall is nearly dead and it is no longer worth direct service for whatever ridership remains.

I'm sure the 358 and the 364 won't be missed.   The 364 also serves River Oaks West.  I'm assuming that portion will be eliminated as well.

I suppose the only reason for 353 not serving River Oaks mall is to connect with the 364.  If the mall is the end of the route  (353), it should serve the mall.  It will still have to use mall property to turn around and layover. The alternative is to eliminate the River Oaks trips altogether and send all 353s to Homewood. 

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1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

Since the mall is the end of the route for the 353, this seems to make no sense.  If the route can't service the mall, the eliminated all of those trips and send all 353s to Homewood.

I'd totally forgotten that many of the trips end at the mall

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

I'm sure the 358 and the 364 won't be missed.   The 364 also serves River Oaks West.  I'm assuming that portion will be eliminated as well.

I suppose the only reason for 353 not serving River Oaks mall is to connect with the 364.  If the mall is the end of the route  (353), it should serve the mall.  It will still have to use mall property to turn around and layover. The alternative is to eliminate the River Oaks trips altogether and send all 353s to Homewood. 

The 353/364 connection could just as easily be achieved at 162nd/Cottage Grove. My guess is that they don't want to cut service to 170th St, especially since I don't think 353/358 connections are being made all that often. I do agree that it should just stay inside the mall though.

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River Oaks Mall seems to be in decline. It reminds me of how Lincoln Mall looked in its final years. I doubt the mall itself is as big of a ridership generator as it used to be. 353's new routing shouldn't add more time, as the bus would have to turn around and lay over at either location. There are several stores and two residential facilities west of Torrence that people may actually ride to, and the revised route is still close enough to the mall to serve those who want to go there.

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3 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Any reason why 366 and 367 aren't one route?

EDIT: Also, if the 353 takes Bishop Ford, why doesn't the 359 use I-57?

At one time,  the 359's north Terminal was 119th/Halsted.  The route was extended from there to run Express to 95th Red Line.  It is quicker to just stay on Halsted rather than go a mile west on 119th, then take I-57 to Halsted and then continue route.  Besides,  during rush hour, I-57 backs up starting around 111th.  The current route also keeps the 359's Calumet Park service intact. 

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On 12/4/2019 at 12:14 PM, NewFlyerMCI said:

WB 290 right? Doesn't it go to the entrance on Touhy to serve the mall and then loop around and then out on McCormick? If so, why? No left turns from Touhy onto McCormick? I used to think the bus used the Touhy entrance of the mall exclusively

Both the WB &EB 290 make this insane circle around the mall.  Why the bus doesn't go to the nearest mall entrance has never made any sense, because then it could go right back onto Touhy.  It takes 8 minutes to go through the mall & back onto Touhy, with the WB 390, stopping twice at Touhy/McCormick. 

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24 minutes ago, strictures said:

Both the WB &EB 290 make this insane circle around the mall.  Why the bus doesn't go to the nearest mall entrance has never made any sense, because then it could go right back onto Touhy.  It takes 8 minutes to go through the mall & back onto Touhy, with the WB 390, stopping twice at Touhy/McCormick. 

Perhaps the mall has something to do with that.  At Yorktown,  only the 322 lays over there.  The 313, 722, and 834 all lay over at Branding/Finley.   Perhaps the mall doesn't want buses stopping at their doors.  

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38 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Perhaps the mall has something to do with that.  At Yorktown,  only the 322 lays over there.  The 313, 722, and 834 all lay over at Branding/Finley.   Perhaps the mall doesn't want buses stopping at their doors.  

It's not the issue of the stop, its the routing the bus takes while in the mall. I can't imagine Lincolnwood Town Center asking for the 290 to serve this circuitous route, it would be better for them for it to take the quickest way in and out the mall.

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36 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

It's not the issue of the stop, its the routing the bus takes while in the mall. I can't imagine Lincolnwood Town Center asking for the 290 to serve this circuitous route, it would be better for them for it to take the quickest way in and out the mall.

There has to be some explanation for that routing.  Outside of the mall, or some connection,  I have no idea.

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11 hours ago, artthouwill said:

There has to be some explanation for that routing.  Outside of the mall, or some connection,  I have no idea.

I've always thought that at any mall, the most logical location for the bus stop is at the mall entrance to the food court.  That way, those waiting for the bus, which can be a long time at some malls, would have a place to sit & also spend some money on food.  Yet most malls, if any do this!

I'm sure it's the malls that want these bizarre locations for bus stops.  Go to Golf Mill & except for the Niles Free Buses, the Pace buses stop south of JC Penney, out in the middle of the parking lot!  When I complained to Pace about this, years ago, I never received a reply, but a shelter was then installed in the middle of the parking lot a couple of weeks later.

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52 minutes ago, strictures said:

I've always thought that at any mall, the most logical location for the bus stop is at the mall entrance to the food court.  That way, those waiting for the bus, which can be a long time at some malls, would have a place to sit & also spend some money on food.  Yet most malls, if any do this!

I'm sure it's the malls that want these bizarre locations for bus stops.  Go to Golf Mill & except for the Niles Free Buses, the Pace buses stop south of JC Penney, out in the middle of the parking lot!  When I complained to Pace about this, years ago, I never received a reply, but a shelter was then installed in the middle of the parking lot a couple of weeks later.

I still believe it's the mall's also.  Since a lot of malls have Pace routes that connect to the city or CTA, I believe the malls fear a certain element may be attracted to their malls and a nearby bus stop is not only a quick getaway, the bus stop itself becomes a prime opportunity for criminals.  Putting a bus stop further away creates less of a crowd around the entrances and makes it easier to identify suspects  (as though criminals don't have cars).  Even Ford City built a transit Center away from its entrances.  

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56 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I still believe it's the mall's also.  Since a lot of malls have Pace routes that connect to the city or CTA, I believe the malls fear a certain element may be attracted to their malls and a nearby bus stop is not only a quick getaway, the bus stop itself becomes a prime opportunity for criminals.  Putting a bus stop further away creates less of a crowd around the entrances and makes it easier to identify suspects  (as though criminals don't have cars).  Even Ford City built a transit Center away from its entrances.  

Malls and transit have always had a contentious relationship. Another example is Yorktown and Orland Square not allowing the buses to lay over on the property due to pavement damage. They don’t want to kick the buses out entirely due to the potential loss of customers, but also recognize that the benefit of keeping them is small. A large portion of bus riders who pass through there will not spend money at the mall. I’m not convinced that the malls directly view buses as a crime generator, but they do have to consider the potential biases of car-driving customers who may feel unsafe walking past the bus stop.

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1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

I still believe it's the mall's also.  Since a lot of malls have Pace routes that connect to the city or CTA, I believe the malls fear a certain element may be attracted to their malls and a nearby bus stop is not only a quick getaway, the bus stop itself becomes a prime opportunity for criminals.  Putting a bus stop further away creates less of a crowd around the entrances and makes it easier to identify suspects  (as though criminals don't have cars).  Even Ford City built a transit Center away from its entrances.  

If the mall is the "element's" destination, the circuitous routing isn't going to deter them. However, I can't fathom why the mall would insist on this routing in particular, leading to me thinking it was a Pace decision for something like reducing left turns, but WB 290 actually makes more going this way. It's also not to serve any other stops in the mall (such as the 210 stop at the McCormick exit) or any stops on McCormick. I tried doing a wayback on the system map and the 290 map to see if that would provide any additional insight, but the exact detailing of the mall route wasn't even included in the schedule until 2016. Anyways, I personally believe that this is one of the few times the mall wasn't responsible for this and its just Pace having yet to correct a decision.

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2 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

If the mall is the "element's" destination, the circuitous routing isn't going to deter them. However, I can't fathom why the mall would insist on this routing in particular, leading to me thinking it was a Pace decision for something like reducing left turns, but WB 290 actually makes more going this way. It's also not to serve any other stops in the mall (such as the 210 stop at the McCormick exit) or any stops on McCormick. I tried doing a wayback on the system map and the 290 map to see if that would provide any additional insight, but the exact detailing of the mall route wasn't even included in the schedule until 2016. Anyways, I personally believe that this is one of the few times the mall wasn't responsible for this and its just Pace having yet to correct a decision.

The original route of all 290s in Lincolnwood Mall was to enter off of Touhy & then go along the west drive, past the senior building, which had a stop & then turn at the far end of Carson's & then stop at the mall entrance.  They then retraced that route to exit to Touhy.  Not very short, ut still about half the length of the current weird & long route!

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13 minutes ago, strictures said:

The original route of all 290s in Lincolnwood Mall was to enter off of Touhy & then go along the west drive, past the senior building, which had a stop & then turn at the far end of Carson's & then stop at the mall entrance.  They then retraced that route to exit to Touhy.  Not very short, ut still about half the length of the current weird & long route!

This makes me believe the mall  told Pace they can't stop at the mall entrance.   Its then up to Pace how to route their buses, so long as they don't stop at (or use the road to) the mall entrance. 

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