CTA Blue Line Crash at O'Hare

[BusHunter]

Again more confused stuff here. If you mean the operator, she is only entitled to workers' compensation. Any papers CTA made her sign would have to be with regards to terminating her. The only recourse would be to the grievance procedure, but as I noted yesterday, Kelly has already poisoned that well.

Unless she is a Hispanic with a workers' compensation claim, Peter Francis Geraci only handles bankruptcy.

As far as insurance, CTA is liable whether it has a carrier, or more likely, is self insured. IIRC, CTA is self insured up to an excess amount covered by a carrier.

So you don't think she will be held liable? I see you missed my point. As a comparison I believe when they had the accident in bourbanais with the steel coil flatbed and the I believe Amtrak train they went after the truck driver and the trucking company.

Talking about insurance everyone who owns property or has a service to provide like a taxi company or whatever usually has some. This is what helps to keep someone from going bankrupt.

[sw4400]

I've been following the comments on this board since this happened. You all have minced it, sliced it - done everything but dice it - with respect to cause, blame and legal ramifications, long and short term, especially as it pertains to CTA and it's safety policies. And this will probably continue for weeks, if not months. So, there is nothing I could contribute that hasn't been said already. But I will say, hope and pray that this same scenario never happens on ANY section of elevated structure, and especially the 59th Street curve on the Englewood leg of the Green Line. As many times as I have ridden that leg, I have always imagined what a disaster it would be if a train entered that curve at excessive speed the way the Blue Line train entered the O'hare terminal, be it because of mechanical failure, operator inattentiveness or whatever. This same phobia exist today everytime a watch a train enter that curve. Far-fetched???? Given what happened at Ohare, I don't think so.

Any elevated structure would be a disaster... one that comes to mind for me is the Clark St. Jct., where not one or two, but three lines connect! Can you imagine this scenario playing out... a wayward Loop Brown Line train flies through the jct. with a Operator unable to stop the train for whatever reason(asleep, medical, mechanical) and this train plows into a Loop Purple Line train and both derail with a 95th Red Line train running nearly alongside the Purple Line train at time of impact. You have three trains derailed, possibly hanging off the elevated structure now. This is a recipe that is possible as Red and Purple run on separate tracks through the junction(Brown would have to hold for Purple Line trains that are Loop-bound and only hold for 95th and Howard-bound Red Line trains when Kimball-bound.

[andrethebusman]

I've been following the comments on this board since this happened. You all have minced it, sliced it - done everything but dice it - with respect to cause, blame and legal ramifications, long and short term, especially as it pertains to CTA and it's safety policies. And this will probably continue for weeks, if not months. So, there is nothing I could contribute that hasn't been said already. But I will say, hope and pray that this same scenario never happens on ANY section of elevated structure, and especially the 59th Street curve on the Englewood leg of the Green Line. As many times as I have ridden that leg, I have always imagined what a disaster it would be if a train entered that curve at excessive speed the way the Blue Line train entered the O'hare terminal, be it because of mechanical failure, operator inattentiveness or whatever. This same phobia exist today everytime a watch a train enter that curve. Far-fetched???? Given what happened at Ohare, I don't think so.

Remember, over the years there have been more than a few cases of trains going off the structure, going back to the 1890's when a Garfield Park train did not stop at Cicero (the end of the line at the time) and ended up in the street.

[andrethebusman]

Remember the Tower 18 derailment circa 1977? Cars 6047-6048 on Ravenswood took curve too fast, derailed, almost hit tower. That one almost ended up in the street.

[andrethebusman]

There was only ONE derailment at 40th and Wabash. Two cars of a SB four car train left the tracks. Motorman at fault. At Indiana Ave. the seventh and eight cars fell. The two cars came off at 39th St. and were dragged three blocks. Motorman was not at fault. All 6000 cars.

Derailments on curves: 59st St, 63rd St, Lake and Wells. Are were 6000s. All were motorman- fault's.

I remember reading at the time of the Indiana Av wreck that after the rear car derailed at 39th, train went into emergency numerous times, but MM never walked back to see why, just kept resetting and pulling ahead.

[Busjack]

So you don't think she will be held liable? I see you missed my point. As a comparison I believe when they had the accident in bourbanais with the steel coil flatbed and the I believe Amtrak train they went after the truck driver and the trucking company.

Talking about insurance everyone who owns property or has a service to provide like a taxi company or whatever usually has some. This is what helps to keep someone from going bankrupt.

Unlike the coil truck incident, she is an employee of CTA, and CTA is liable. Look up the term repondeat superior.

Besides that, how is a one year PTO going to have any money? Look up judgment proof.

And if you think everyone has insurance, look up the stink about Uber.and insurance.

And I'm sure any bus driver or motorman will be able to post here if CTA requires an existing insurance policy (I would say at least $5 million liability) before being hired.

[Busjack]

I think you need to be out more at 3-4 am before saying these trains are nothing but rolling homeless shelters. On my way to work in the morning (at 4) the front part of the outbound trains are quite full with workers headed out to the airport for early shifts. Your busier stations (Jeff Park and Irving Park) often have 10-20 people on them waiting for trains. While I am sure there are freeloaders out there, there are also a lot of people using the L at that time. I know what it is like to hit a bumping post at 10-12 MPH...I can imagine 25 flying through the air. Trust me...anyone on that train who is claiming to be hurt, is.

The woman interviewed last night works for TSA. The vast majority of passengers at O'Hare work there. That's why there was the stink when they raised the fare to $5.00 and then had to give employees special passes to get on at standard fare.

[4CottageGrove95th]

Any elevated structure would be a disaster... one that comes to mind for me is the Clark St. Jct., where not one or two, but three lines connect! Can you imagine this scenario playing out... a wayward Loop Brown Line train flies through the jct. with a Operator unable to stop the train for whatever reason(asleep, medical, mechanical) and this train plows into a Loop Purple Line train and both derail with a 95th Red Line train running nearly alongside the Purple Line train at time of impact. You have three trains derailed, possibly hanging off the elevated structure now. This is a recipe that is possible as Red and Purple run on separate tracks through the junction(Brown would have to hold for Purple Line trains that are Loop-bound and only hold for 95th and Howard-bound Red Line trains when Kimball-bound.

You know, that's a good point. Looking at the aerial view of Clark Street Juction that you posted, I see exactly what you're saying. Again, here is another classic example of what could be a very, very ugly scenario if the CTA does not get a handle on making sure that their operators are alert and focused when they are at that Cineston.

[4CottageGrove95th]

Remember, over the years there have been more than a few cases of trains going off the structure, going back to the 1890's when a Garfield Park train did not stop at Cicero (the end of the line at the time) and ended up in the street.

Your right about that. I kinda got a bit of "tunnel visioned" thinking about what would happen on certain stretches of the system (i.e, 59th and Wentworth). But no, I hadn't forgotten about the wrecks and mishaps of the past.

[sw4400]

The more I read about this Operator, the more I don't know about her.... looking to the "overshot the mark" incident in February where she was reprimanded, she was off work for more than 25 hours before her shift began on that day... 25 hours! Either she has some sleeping issue, or she's got some medical problem or perhaps even, at the worst case, abuses some sort of legal or illegal drugs that make her sleepy(I've seen this with a video of a little girl trying to wake her Mom up who's hunched over on a city bus dozing off. She was ultimately turned into DCFS). This Operator may have some issue(s) to work out, but I can only speculate on what the CTA released on her past time off between shifts(25 hours) vs. the time off before this accident(18 hours).

Story(section I'm referring to is the fifth paragraph)

To me, she's had ample time to sleep... As I said, I've worked a 8.5 hr. shift where I've gotten off of work at 8p only to be back at 5a, and had no problem doing my job(and that was on about four hours' sleep). Again in job comparison, I just run a section of a store while she operates a train.

[Busjack]

... This Operator may have some issue(s) to work out, but I can only speculate on what the CTA released on her past time off between shifts(25 hours) vs. the time off before this accident(18 hours).

Standard shiftwork (8 to 4, 4 to 12, 12 to 8) leaves, essentially, less than 16 hours between shifts, so she got more than someone in a steel mill would.

Someone speculated elsewhere about narcolepsy, but it seems more like poor supervision, especially if CTA is relying on PTOs due to what is said to be high attrition (and of course the bottom of seniority getting the worst pick). But I mentioned earlier that the first incident should have been a red flag.

[andrethebusman]

Standard shiftwork (8 to 4, 4 to 12, 12 to 8) leaves, essentially, less than 16 hours between shifts, so she got more than someone in a steel mill would.

Someone speculated elsewhere about narcolepsy, but it seems more like poor supervision, especially if CTA is relying on PTOs due to what is said to be high attrition (and of course the bottom of seniority getting the worst pick). But I mentioned earlier that the first incident should have been a red flag.

Some people just can't handle this kind of work. It used to be that the L (unlike the bus system) used a "rotating extra board" system, where work today was assigned on the basis of when you finished working yesterday, which resulted in many, many times coming back barely 8 hours after ending previous run. Hated extra board because of that. At least on the buses, work is assigned the same every day, with at least full-timers having work assigned in the basis of first man gets earliest finish, 2nd man gets 2nd earliest finish,. etc, until all runs that start before 8am are assigned, then work is assigned in start time order below that. Result is that you basically work the same hours all the time. Now part-timers are assigned differently, basically at assignment clerk's discretion as long as 8 hours off. By the way, does the L have "PTO's"?, I was under the impression that all operators were "full time" from hire.

[BusHunter]

I was told she was a PTO.

[Juniorz]

Somebody needs to post a CTA rail operations manual, we need to dissect these procedures

[garmon757]

Well, #3061 has been cut open today. I don't what's the future looking like for #3062.

Photos courtesy of NBC 5.

[Busjack]

For those concerned about the station reopening, ABC7 had video of the chopped up pieces of the car on the side of the road, plus an interview with the police officer who was at the top of the stairs on the viral video.

Now I'm waiting for some foamer to say that 3061 is "on long term hold."

[jajuan]

Unlike the coil truck incident, she is an employee of CTA, and CTA is liable. Look up the term repondeat superior.

Besides that, how is a one year PTO going to have any money? Look up judgment proof.

And if you think everyone has insurance, look up the stink about Uber.and insurance.

And I'm sure any bus driver or motorman will be able to post here if CTA requires an existing insurance policy (I would say at least $5 million liability) before being hired.

And I'd say they're liable after the reports that she admitted to NTSB what she already admitted early on in this, that not only did she fall asleep in this instance but also did so in another instance. And that gets back to my question I posed before. If she already some history of this, why did CTA allow her back behind the controls of a train, and on the second busiest line at that.

[Busjack]

And I'd say they're liable after the reports that she admitted to NTSB what she already admitted early on in this, that not only did she fall asleep in this instance but also did so in another instance. And that gets back to my question I posed before. If she already some history of this, why did CTA allow her back behind the controls of a train, and on the second busiest line at that.

The only explanation seems to be the news report that she didn't "blow past" the station, but the first car missed the platform, so she said, don't get off until the next one. I've been on trains like that.

But apparently the NTSB is looking into that, too.

[jajuan]

Standard shiftwork (8 to 4, 4 to 12, 12 to 8) leaves, essentially, less than 16 hours between shifts, so she got more than someone in a steel mill would.

Someone speculated elsewhere about narcolepsy, but it seems more like poor supervision, especially if CTA is relying on PTOs due to what is said to be high attrition (and of course the bottom of seniority getting the worst pick). But I mentioned earlier that the first incident should have been a red flag.

Exactly. All the rehashing of what the operator was doing beforehand does get you around the fact that she's now also on record with the federal investigators, as of today's news reports, by her own admission of falling asleep in this instance that lead to the accident after having that prior instance where she was just got reprimanded. That means the CTA is on record with the feds that they dropped the ball after that earlier instance that should have been their red flag not to let her back behind the controls of ANY train on the system, let alone one on the second busiest rail line in the system.

[sw4400]

Being of a different Union myself, one has to question a few things here...

• this Operator has only been operating trains for the CTA for sixty(60) days, so she should still be under some probationary period, although only a CTA Operator or insider would know for sure. And under that probationary period, after so many mistakes, she can be let go without much Union flak. Once she's past probation, it's harder to just terminate her employment.
• If the Operator did blow past a stop, given her probationary status(I believe she is still under one with only being a Rail Operator for sixty days), that should've been more serious a punishment then just a "Verbal Warning"... that should've been to show how serious this could've been to her, a suspension for a set time and this time should be her termination. But this could've been avoided if they disciplined her properly, or released her as a Rail Operator. Records say she was hired in April of 2013. What was she doing between April 2013 and January 2014? Was she a Bus Operator, Customer Service Agent, or other, and how did she move up to a Rail Operator status from there? If she was a Bus Operator(again, I don't know, but she had to be something at the CTA since being hired in April 2013), wouldn't she have dozed off at the wheel too? I mean, some Part-Time Bus Operators have a rough day, starting at 4a working until 11a or 12p, only to have to return to work 3p to 7p or something like that. That would be an insane schedule...

This is a story with a lot of background to it.... CSI: CTA, anyone?

[jajuan]

The only explanation seems to be the news report that she didn't "blow past" the station, but the first car missed the platform, so she said, don't get off until the next one. I've been on trains like that.

But apparently the NTSB is looking into that, too.

Ok I kind of see the point of the first car missing the platform. But she said she fell asleep in that instance too. So I guess the pattern I'm getting at is her falling asleep while in control of a train. I'm sure plaintiff lawyers in the reported lawsuit and those yet to come are going to go after that and have a field day with it.

[See Tea Eh]

To me, she's had ample time to sleep... As I said, I've worked a 8.5 hr. shift where I've gotten off of work at 8p only to be back at 5a, and had no problem doing my job(and that was on about four hours' sleep). Again in job comparison, I just run a section of a store while she operates a train.

There's a major difference between working in a store (where you're generally up, on your feet, moving around, etc.) and sitting down at the controls of a vehicle that doesn't require a lot of physical exertion to operate. Add to that the fact that the run was at night (when the body naturally wants to shut down), and much of the running is through tunnels/subways (including the last stretch into O'Hare), extended nonstop running (five minutes between Rosemont and O'Hare), and it's easy to see how someone who isn't fully rested/alert can doze off.

Completely different than working in a store where the lights are on full blast and most workers are walking around, or at least standing up.

Not excusing the operator for falling asleep (and just because one was off work doesn't mean they are resting), but the comparison between a train operator and a store worker in terms of alertness on short rest is completely irrelevant.

[jajuan]

There's a major difference between working in a store (where you're generally up, on your feet, moving around, etc.) and sitting down at the controls of a vehicle that doesn't require a lot of physical exertion to operate. Add to that the fact that the run was at night (when the body naturally wants to shut down), and much of the running is through tunnels/subways (including the last stretch into O'Hare), extended nonstop running (five minutes between Rosemont and O'Hare), and it's easy to see how someone who isn't fully rested/alert can doze off.

Completely different than working in a store where the lights are on full blast and most workers are walking around, or at least standing up.

Not excusing the operator for falling asleep (and just because one was off work doesn't mean they are resting), but the comparison between a train operator and a store worker in terms of alertness on short rest is completely irrelevant.

Valid point.

[sw4400]

There's a major difference between working in a store (where you're generally up, on your feet, moving around, etc.) and sitting down at the controls of a vehicle that doesn't require a lot of physical exertion to operate. Add to that the fact that the run was at night (when the body naturally wants to shut down), and much of the running is through tunnels/subways (including the last stretch into O'Hare), extended nonstop running (five minutes between Rosemont and O'Hare), and it's easy to see how someone who isn't fully rested/alert can doze off.

Completely different than working in a store where the lights are on full blast and most workers are walking around, or at least standing up.

Not excusing the operator for falling asleep (and just because one was off work doesn't mean they are resting), but the comparison between a train operator and a store worker in terms of alertness on short rest is completely irrelevant.

I'm not comparing my job in that sense(I am responsible for counting a lot of money and getting things ready for business, and if I mess that up, figures will be off and I'll have a lot of explaining to do), but I don't want to get hung up on job comparisons and rest and make a big to-do about that, so let's that go, See Tea Eh. What I would like to discuss is the following...

What I am curious about is what I mentioned above... this employee became a Rail Operator sometime in January 2014 since she only had sixty days on the job thus far. I'm pretty sure she's still on probation(I don't know how long a Operator, Bus or Rail, is on probation), but any big mistakes that could've been serious enough to put passengers' lives in jeopardy should've been enough to have her terminated or put back to whatever she was doing prior to becoming a Rail Operator. When the overshoot occurred in February, she was probably at or just over the thirty day mark of being a Rail Operator, and fatigue was again the culprit as she now indicated about it, but didn't then. Between the last shift she had and the shift where she overshot Belmont on the Blue Line, she had 24 hours off. Between her last shift and the shift where she crashed the train at O'Hare a few days ago, she had 18 hours off.

One bit that is interesting in both nod off situations... both occurred in a Subway(Kimball Subway for overshoot, O'Hare underground for crash)... She had no problems anywhere on the Blue Line except for in the Subways.... Why? Is it the lights zooming by putting her in some narcoleptic trans?

Narcolepsy is a high possibility, but only a Neurologist can diagnose it. I included a page about it just to read about here. I am not licensed to say this is what she has, but doing a search about "Falling Asleep At Work", this came up at the top of the search.

Now, I don't think a person has to put down their medical history when applying for a job. I could be wrong, but if the applicant believes that the condition won't affect their performance, then they don't have to list it. HIPPA I'm sure allows them to keep their medical status confidential, even from an employer. For example, if a prospective Burger King Manager was hiring a Customer Service rep/Cashier, and the applicant looking for a job was bipolar, do you think they would list that? The Manager would look at that and trash the application without consideration, because many think bipolar people will lash out all the time, but with properly dosed medication, they are no different than you or me. Getting back to the Rail Operator... maybe she does suffer from Narcolepsy(my speculation only), and didn't tell CTA when she became a Rail Operator because she thought it was under control, but it wasn't for whatever reason those two times reported about.

[ctrabs74]

The woman interviewed last night works for TSA. The vast majority of passengers at O'Hare work there. That's why there was the stink when they raised the fare to $5.00 and then had to give employees special passes to get on at standard fare.

Article from the Daily Herald.

I am guessing this is the same TSA employee you were referring to.