CTA Blue Line Crash at O'Hare

[Busjack]

Article from the Daily Herald.

I am guessing this is the same TSA employee you were referring to.

Yes.

Ok I kind of see the point of the first car missing the platform. But she said she fell asleep in that instance too. So I guess the pattern I'm getting at is her falling asleep while in control of a train. I'm sure plaintiff lawyers in the reported lawsuit and those yet to come are going to go after that and have a field day with it.

Basically you are suggesting two legal theories making CTA liable, respondeat superior for her acts, plus CTA's own fault in negligent supervision of her. There probably are other theories of CTA's negligence in maintaining the station premises (discussed yesterday) and equipment.

Normal Illinois practice is to list 10 or so acts of negligence, but in this case, it isn't going to be hard for plaintiffs' lawyers to prove something.

The only thing anyone can be grateful about is that (unlike the Glenview/Northbrook bridge collapse), they didn't find a corpse on the stairway under the car, which the police officer said he could have been.

Also, to lighten things a bit, apparently Booz-Allen is operating the train in today's Dilbert.

[joechicago]

From the Sun-Times:

The driver of the Blue Line train that crashed at O’Hare had worked 69 hours in
the seven days leading up to the accident, and her call-in status as an operator
without a consistent work shift caused her to work “strange” hours that
contributed to the crash, the CTA rail union president said Friday

And this is great:

The female operator is “torn to pieces” over the crash, and the union will fight the CTA if it seeks to fire
her, Kelly said.

[jajuan]

From the Sun-Times:

And this is great:

The first suggests that CTA really needs to change its workplace practices ASAP. That's one thing I think few people outside of the situation are paying enough attention to with all the harping and speculation of her activities before her shift and allowing any anger towards her, no matter how justified, blind them from also paying close attention to CTA's hand in this. I for one contend that if she deserves to be fired, everyone one of her superiors who knew about the previous instance of her falling asleep at the controls that first train and had a hand in her getting a relative slap on the wrist as punishment and getting back behind the controls of a train also need to be fired. As was pointed out yesterday, the first instance should have been a red flag, but no one higher up who were in the know moved to act on it. And on the second, that's rich after he practically threw her under the bus (no pun intended) when he opened his mouth on Monday blabbing away at what she and he discussed in what was presumably supposed to be a consultation as her union rep on what her rights are moving forward.

[Busjack]

From the Sun-Times:

And this is great:

I still question that, if that's the case, why Kelly opened his mouth on Monday or Tuesday. Also, if her hours were that unsatisfactorily irregular, why the union didn't bargain better about the extra board or bottom pick.

[trainman8119]

I still question that, if that's the case, why Kelly opened his mouth on Monday or Tuesday. Also, if her hours were that unsatisfactorily irregular, why the union didn't bargain better about the extra board or bottom pick.

Kelly opening his mouth when he did made no sense...nor did what he say today either. Both parties should have not said anything, including the operator to the NTSB without a lawyer. She can be held personally liable for what happened, not that anyone would get much out of her. That was one of the most scary things about operating an engine, that liability. I would also agree that (at least with us) there is a 60-90 day (90 for us) probation period where no screw ups of any kind are allowed. The union has no say on what happens to someone in that probationary period, and in fact no dues are taken out until said probation is over.

The fact that she worked 69 hours is not surprising. With us, Metra plays every game playing with hours of service rules, manipulating them so they have bodies without hiring enough people to run a system safely and properly. I am sure without such a standard at CTA (not under Federal Railroad Rules), they probably push the envelope quite hard.

[Busjack]

ABC7 6 p.m. news had the I-Team report identifying the operator. Anyway, they said that before she went to operator's school, she was a flagman making $13.31/hour. I was going to look it up in the database, but Chuck Gowdie already did the work.

But it looks like she was an employee more than the 60-90 days others cite as the probable probation period.

Kelly also seems to get his foot more into his mouth, saying "she didn't fall asleep, she dozed off," like that makes any difference.

[qwantae]

At least the New Blue shutdowns are only on the weekend. Some artic weekend routes can go back to 40 footers.

As for your other point, there doesn't seem to be any other public transit way to get to O'Hare, unless someone thinks it is quicker to somehow get to the 330 Pace bus.

Since yesterday, I seen mostly 40-Footers on the 6 and 146.

[BusHunter]

I don't think there's any way this operator can keep her job as motorman. In a period of two months she's overshot a platform and wrecked a train and platform. This operator is dangerous and should not be motoring. She almost killed somebody this time. Maybe next time she will. The CTA can't hide behind what has occurred. I'm sure they've had other employees work 70 hours and they are not wrecking trains. Maybe the union can get her back to a flagman position but that can be dangerous too if sleeping on the job.

[sw4400]

I would also agree that (at least with us) there is a 60-90 day (90 for us) probation period where no screw ups of any kind are allowed. The union has no say on what happens to someone in that probationary period, and in fact no dues are taken out until said probation is over.

The fact that she worked 69 hours is not surprising. With us, Metra plays every game playing with hours of service rules, manipulating them so they have bodies without hiring enough people to run a system safely and properly. I am sure without such a standard at CTA (not under Federal Railroad Rules), they probably push the envelope quite hard.

I'm sure you are talking about Metra, trainman8119. If CTA is in the same boat on probationary periods, then she should be easily dismissible.

ABC7 6 p.m. news had the I-Team report identifying the operator. Anyway, they said that before she went to operator's school, she was a flagman making $13.31/hour. I was going to look it up in the database, but Chuck Gowdie already did the work.

But it looks like she was an employee more than the 60-90 days others cite as the probable probation period.

Kelly also seems to get his foot more into his mouth, saying "she didn't fall asleep, she dozed off," like that makes any difference.

Actually, if you read the articles dating back about her Busjack(here's one; sixth paragraph down), she was a Flagman(now that her past job title has been established) since April 2013, and has only been a Rail Operator for 60 days since the accident at O-Hare on Monday. She became a Rail Operator around the middle of January, 2014 then and even though she's been employed almost a year with the CTA, she should be in a probationary period as a Rail Operator. If she didn't cut it, they would've just put her back down to flagman. Knowing Kelly and how he is fighting this, he'll get the CTA to cave and just demote her back to a flagman, I bet. There is no way they'll keep her on as a Rail Operator, especially after this.

[4CottageGrove95th]

Maybe the union can get her back to a flagman position but that can be dangerous too if sleeping on the job.

Yes.....dangerous for her and potentially dangerous for trackworkers dependent on her for their safety.

[BusHunter]

She really needs to be fired though, what keeps her a year from now, becoming motorman again? Usually someone gets fired from an incident of this caliber and she is the leading subject.

[Busjack]

...

Actually, if you read the articles dating back about her Busjack(here's one; sixth paragraph down), she was a Flagman(now that her past job title has been established) since April 2013, and has only been a Rail Operator for 60 days since the accident at O-Hare on Monday. She became a Rail Operator around the middle of January, 2014 then and even though she's been employed almost a year with the CTA, she should be in a probationary period as a Rail Operator. If she didn't cut it, they would've just put her back down to flagman....

I don't have the particular contract, but the probationary period starts with the first hire, so she would be a union member as of at latest July 2013.

There wouldn't be any talk about the union representing her at a hearing if she didn't have the right to one, which a probationary employee does not.

Also, what you say is impossible on a practical level for two reasons:

• CTA has been on record only firing employees or suspending them without pay (consider the Forest Park incident, where the union yardmasters got suspensions, and the electricians, being exempt, got fired). No word that the electricians got demoted .
• I don't know of any unionized business where employees involved in this kind of misconduct get demoted. Do butchers become bagboys/fetchers of carts from the parking lot? Even in places like steel mills (where I once did summer works for a couple of years), where there was a clear seniority sequence between jobs, people might freeze in a position, but were not knocked back for disciplinary reasons, although they could have been in a job reduction in force (under a bumping rights provision in the contract). However, since one has to go to operator school to become an operator, there is not a clear job progression between flagman and operator.

[sw4400]

I don't have the particular contract, but the probationary period starts with the first hire, so she would be a union member as of at latest July 2013.

There wouldn't be any talk about the union representing her at a hearing if she didn't have the right to one, which a probationary employee does not.

Also, what you say is impossible on a practical level for two reasons:

• CTA has been on record only firing employees or suspending them without pay (consider the Forest Park incident, where the union yardmasters got suspensions, and the electricians, being exempt, got fired). No word that the electricians got demoted .
• I don't know of any unionized business where employees involved in this kind of misconduct get demoted. Do butchers become bagboys/fetchers of carts from the parking lot? Even in places like steel mills (where I once did summer works for a couple of years), where there was a clear seniority sequence between jobs, people might freeze in a position, but were not knocked back for disciplinary reasons, although they could have been in a job reduction in force (under a bumping rights provision in the contract). However, since one has to go to operator school to become an operator, there is not a clear job progression between flagman and operator.

We've had people go to another dept. and get a 30 & 60-Day review on their performance there(probation). Several didn't make the cut and were sent back to us, and these people were already in the Union, being past their 30 & 60-Day reviews since being first hired. So, if Local 308 is similar setup to our Union, all they can really fight here is putting her back to her original position. But now that her name is out there(whoever spilled that info might be in serious trouble, BTW), the only thing sensible to CTA, the Union, and her is to dismiss her. Robert Kelly is just playing the "she's torn to pieces" card, and maybe she's beating herself up over this, but ultimately she had time between both shifts to sleep and even have a meal! 24 hours(1 day) between shifts during the Belmont overshoot and 18 hours(enough time for rest and meal) between shifts before the O'Hare crash. I could see if she only had 10-12 hours off, maybe I'd side with her a bit more, but she had more than adequate time for rest.

I don't want to sound cold, but I don't feel a lot of remorse for her here... she had ample time for sleep between shifts, and chose not to for whatever reason. How many hours off between shifts do you need?

[dann]

I don't want to sound cold, but I don't feel a lot of remorse for her here... she had ample time for sleep between shifts, and chose not to for whatever reason. How many hours off between shifts do you need?

You're not sounding cold, you're just being realistic. Even if she's working two jobs, there is no excuse for falling asleep at the controls of a commuter train. In fact , I believe the operator of the MTA train that derailed a couple months ago was fired.

[Busjack]

We've had people go to another dept. and get a 30 & 60-Day review on their performance there(probation). Several didn't make the cut and were sent back to us, and these people were already in the Union, being past their 30 & 60-Day reviews since being first hired. So, if Local 308 is similar setup to our Union, all they can really fight here is putting her back to her original position. ...

It all depends on what the grievance procedure is in the particular union contract, and I suppose what review system is included in that contract.

My experience has been that reviews have been for nonunion jobs (sort of the Dilbert scenario), but not for unionized industrial jobs. Apparently, the grocery business is different.

This being a government employer, I suppose there is also some due process component.

[BusHunter]

So she caused $6 million dollars in damage at O'Hare? I guess the legacy of #3061 is a dump truck.

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/25083560/cta-taking-precautions-at-ohare-after-derailment

[Busjack]

So she caused $6 million dollars in damage at O'Hare? I guess the legacy of #3061 is a dump truck.

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/25083560/cta-taking-precautions-at-ohare-after-derailment

The car was chopped into little pieces (according to the ABC 7 video cited above), probably over a half million dollars depreciated value there (more if it is based on replacement cost).

Then you don't know how much damage that did to the rest of the train.

Then there was the damage done to the station; besides having to replace the escalator, no telling how much structural damage was done to the platform and stairs, or the rails.

The "damage" probably doesn't include the operational costs of setting up the shuttle, sending the ironworkers to cut apart 3061, etc.

But at least this provides a view (at about :47) of the new signs on Pace 610.

[BusHunter]

Now ABC is saying Kelly misreported how many hours she worked now it's 55. So does he want her to keep her job or what? Seem to can't paste the link (top link on Chicago-l.org's news page)

[Busjack]

Now ABC is saying Kelly misreported how many hours she worked now it's 55. So does he want her to keep her job or what? Seem to can't paste the link (top link on Chicago-l.org's news page)

Most of the news stories at the time Kelly made the original statement said CTA was disputing that. One would assume that CTA has the time records (supposedly they implemented biometric time clocks).

[trainman8119]

Let me say this, and those in the know here who work at CTA can confirm or deny. As I stated, Metra has a way to circumvent the hours of service with the blessing of the FRA. An example would be a trainman working on a train for 2 days, and working as a flagman for 2 days and then back as a trainman for 4 days. To you and me, that would be 7 consecutive days of work. However, the law allows Metra to not recognize the two days as a flagman as on duty because said person was not on the train. It is considered that this trainman had 2 days off, even though he/she provided service (silly ain't it ?). By doing this, a person can work forever without a day off, but because he/she is not turning wheels on the train, it doesn't count. All of this under the guise of fatigue analysis and has the blessing of the FRA, passenger carriers and unions.

The point is that if CTA calculates their on duty time as actually being behind the throttle, if she had for example, had a training class or did some kind of yard/flag work, it could explain how the union could claim she worked 69 hours and CTA claim she worked only 55. In any event, she DID have 18 hours off, and that is agreed. That should be plenty of time to get some serious sleep.

As I said, only a possibility and those who actually work there can confirm or dispute this. But there are ways to "manipulate" the actual (on either side).

[Busjack]

Now ABC is saying Kelly misreported how many hours she worked now it's 55. So does he want her to keep her job or what? Seem to can't paste the link (top link on Chicago-l.org's news page)

Maybe the link is to this Tribune story, which has Steele disputing the hours. The article also says that the employee could request overtime in accordance with the collective bargaining agreement, and also that Kelly shouldn't have said anything, not for the reason I said, but because he is a party to the NTSB investigation.

[jajuan]

Since yesterday, I seen mostly 40-Footers on the 6 and 146.

And that relates to the thread how? if it's to say the week long uses of shuttles had anything to do with it, not likely because North Park still managed to have enough artics to have the mostly artics on the usual routes that use them. Let's not forget that garage's artic count is about 120 and it does not have all 120 out on the road at one time even at rush hour.

[jajuan]

We've had people go to another dept. and get a 30 & 60-Day review on their performance there(probation). Several didn't make the cut and were sent back to us, and these people were already in the Union, being past their 30 & 60-Day reviews since being first hired. So, if Local 308 is similar setup to our Union, all they can really fight here is putting her back to her original position. But now that her name is out there(whoever spilled that info might be in serious trouble, BTW), the only thing sensible to CTA, the Union, and her is to dismiss her. Robert Kelly is just playing the "she's torn to pieces" card, and maybe she's beating herself up over this, but ultimately she had time between both shifts to sleep and even have a meal! 24 hours(1 day) between shifts during the Belmont overshoot and 18 hours(enough time for rest and meal) between shifts before the O'Hare crash. I could see if she only had 10-12 hours off, maybe I'd side with her a bit more, but she had more than adequate time for rest.

I don't want to sound cold, but I don't feel a lot of remorse for her here... she had ample time for sleep between shifts, and chose not to for whatever reason. How many hours off between shifts do you need?

She may have had time to sleep, but when we get down to it CTA is not off the hook by any stretch because they kept her in the rail operator spot when the first instance of her dozing off and overshooting the station should have been the red flag that she did not belong in the rail operator position. Yeah she should be fired at this point, but more than just her head needs to roll on this because CTA put her back in a position where she could have killed someone. I say not only penalize her but also go after everyone of her immediate supervisors and managers who know about the first incident but only gave her a relative slap on the wrist. And you really do need to stop trying to compare apples and oranges, because I've worked for Jewel also and her situation and working a schedule at Jewel are indeed two different things. Most working at Jewel have the benefit of constantly moving around and having that movement tend to wake you up enough to make it through that shift. But as pointed out, once your standing and/or sitting still and you've been operating on an irregular sleep pattern, your body does start to feel that and you do have those moments where you feel yourself nod off. And if you're behind the controls of any vehicle, it only takes a couple of seconds for an accident to occur, which is the main reason not being 100% alert is so dangerous. You don't have to be in a full blown doze for your concentration to fade. That brief second to snap yourself out of it is all it takes to set things in motion to get a dangerous accident. And from personal experience, you can be alert enough to count money and still have enough body fatigue to not be alert enough to safely operate a vehicle which is why I'd always let CTA or someone else drive me home from a Jewel shift.

[Guest]

CTA also needs to improve its medical screenings for its operating workers. In the past weve seen buses out of control and colliding into cars such as the 76 Diversey bus accident when the driver suffered a seizure at the wheel and collided into some twenty parked cars. Half the time these accidents occur its a result of the operator having some medical condition behind the wheel. I was witness to a Pace bus running onto a sidewalk taking down a stop sign at Lake near Ridgeland a few years back when I was working #86 Narragansett. I stopped to see what had happened to the operator. She had a seizure behind the wheel and was found slumped over the steering wheel with the bus still in gear. Had this incident happened just a block down at the Ridgeland bus stop where about ten people were standing waiting for our buses. It would have been a very different story. CTA /Pace need to do a better job of weeding out bus and train operators with serious medical conditions that could pose a safety hazard to the public.

[BusHunter]

You know they say when you haven't been sleeping for more than 24 hrs, your classified as legally drunk. The police when you get pulled over if they suspect you're fatigued will look at your eyes with a flashlight to see if you're showing fatigue symptoms. It may sound crazy but maybe all public transit vehicles should install a retinal scanner to keep tired employees from hurting innocent civilians.