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CTA Accidents

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​Andre's point about the gps controlling the signs was that if a bus does not pass through the normal terminal, the correct reading is not put on the sign, unless there is something en route that resets the reading. If we believe the timetable, the terminal was State-Harrison, but since the bus was going into service at Michigan-Wacker, it didn't pass through there, if we buy Andre's hypothetical itinerary that the bus was diverted from Michigan southbound via Wacker, State, and Lake. However, the news reports had the bus on the Plaza with a 148 Clarendon/Mich Exp/Foster-Marine reading. So, something changed the reading to the correct destination before impact. I don't claim to have enough information about how the Clever Device did that.

​Clever Device is a funny thing. It will change a sign as soon as the gps perceives the bus is on route. In this case, it would have put up the sign pretty much as soon as he turned onto Lake St. Now as far as why he might have been standing, here is my take: In order to put up anything but the "normal" reading, you have to force the Clever Device into "manual" mode, which would have been necessary to put up a Not In Service reading. Now once you get to where you are going back to your normal route, you either log back on normally or change signs in manual mode, which is frowned on as you are then not on BusTracker. So he might have been logging back on. As far as kneeling, I have a problem with this as doors have to be open to kneel the bus. Personally I can reach the top Clever Device while sitting no problem, but a shorter person might need to stand up. And yes, the bus might have started rolling and driver didn't even notice.

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We seem to have the itinerary of this bus completely wrong.  This route is rush hour, peak direction, only.  There would be only two ways for this bus arriving at its terminal: 1) either as "NOT IN SERVICE" or "DOWNTOWN" on Lake Shore Drive as an express or, 2) as an interline with a route that goes into downtown and terminates near Harrison and State (such as 151 Sheridan | Union Station).  If this bus in fact were to be short-turned, it would have to be done on Lake Shore Drive, which would require the operator to exit at about Randolph, but then there would be the question as to why the operator didn't just turn onto Michigan from Randolph.  The only other possibility would be that this bus arrived at the terminal very late and was told to go as "NOT IN SERVICE" to Michigan and Lake.  This would happen if this bus and its follower were the last two buses on the route for that day since the last northbound trip on 148 leaves State and Harrison at 6:30 pm.

 

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I understand wreck was at 1755, If this is correct, this would be run P283, due at S Water 1754. Itinerary for this run is a Lane School tripper to Harlem that then comes back to Addison/Lake Shore, gets on LSD at Belmont to Monroe-Columbus-Congress-Congress Plaza, wait at Plaza for leaving time, then go west on Harrison, north on State. Now if run was severely delayed on Addison so he could not make CP, the next best place to switch would be LSD-Wacker-Wabash-Lake-Michigan. You do not want to make right turn off Wacker onto Michigan NB. Maybe whoever told him where to switch thought he would still have a few minutes before S Water time, as you have 17 minutes Harrison/State to S Water, so better to have him sit on Lake or Wabash a couple of minutes instead of on Michigan at 6pm. If I were doing this, I would want to be as close to the first timepoint I would encounter after deadheading down, not a half mile away at Randolph/Columbus Lower.

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You can bet a huge lawsuit against CTA is within days!!!

​I'm surprised it hasn't happened already, or at least a lawsuit to preserve the evidence. Maybe it did and it was not announced. As I indicated above, CTA doesn't appear to have a defense to this one.

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​I'm surprised it hasn't happened already, or at least a lawsuit to preserve the evidence. Maybe it did and it was not announced. As I indicated above, CTA doesn't appear to have a defense to this one.

​We are not going to see this bus for a long time in service. Most likely it has a legal hold on it. I don't even know if it will be rehabbed if it's still being held.

As far as Randolph, LSD gets really heavy traffic SB so they were probably trying to save time. Hardly anyone drives east Wacker.

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​We are not going to see this bus for a long time in service. Most likely it has a legal hold on it. I don't even know if it will be rehabbed if it's still being held.

....

​As I implied, an action to discover evidence would take care of that. Don't know if plaintiffs have found a lawyer to file it.

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​As I implied, an action to discover evidence would take care of that. Don't know if plaintiffs have found a lawyer to file it.

​I just saw on the newsj just now  the the dead woman son and daughter is suing CTA and the bus operator for this accident this morning.

Edited by ArcherRider
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I wonder if this is a smear the black driver that killed a white woman campaign going on.   I'm not saying that the CTA is, but the media and everything else seemingly is pinning this squarely on th the driver.  The media reports have been saying the bus was empty,  but now there's a woman who says that she and another lady were on the bus at the time of the crash.  She stated that the driver yelled at another car and that the bus never felt like it came to a stop.   The article is on the homepage concerning the woman.   It's possible that the light was changing and not red yet when the driver was about to attempt a left turn only to find a car  attempting the same turn on his left.   I don't know what happened but her story contradicts the media reports. 

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I wonder if this is a smear the black driver that killed a white woman campaign going on.   I'm not saying that the CTA is, but the media and everything else seemingly is pinning this squarely on th the driver.  The media reports have been saying the bus was empty,  but now there's a woman who says that she and another lady were on the bus at the time of the crash.  She stated that the driver yelled at another car and that the bus never felt like it came to a stop.   The article is on the homepage concerning the woman.   It's possible that the light was changing and not red yet when the driver was about to attempt a left turn only to find a car  attempting the same turn on his left.   I don't know what happened but her story contradicts the media reports. 

​It was pretty clear from the Tribune report that the police report had not been completed.

It also seems pretty clear that whether there was a passenger on the bus had nothing to do with the proximate cause of the accident, which was that the driver should not have gone through the red light. Maybe she has some evidence on what the driver did that is relevant to what was the proximate cause of the accident, but plaintiff's attorneys are sure to find that out. CTA would have to answer discovery on what eyewitnesses were there, and then plaintiff's attorney may take depositions of those eyewitnesses.

Maybe a blackout, if proven by the testimony, is relevant to proximate cause and fault, but unless CTA settles, it will be for the jury to decide.

And, basically, I think it is racist on your part to have posted your introductory sentence,

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​It was pretty clear from the Tribune report that the police report had not been completed.

It also seems pretty clear that whether there was a passenger on the bus had nothing to do with the proximate cause of the accident, which was that the driver should not have gone through the red light. Maybe she has some evidence on what the driver did that is relevant to what was the proximate cause of the accident, but plaintiff's attorneys are sure to find that out. CTA would have to answer discovery on what eyewitnesses were there, and then plaintiff's attorney may take depositions of those eyewitnesses.

Maybe a blackout, if proven by the testimony, is relevant to proximate cause and fault, but unless CTA settles, it will be for the jury to decide.

And, basically, I think it is racist on your part to have posted your introductory sentence,

My introduction was not racist on my part.   The article I referenced, and other reports noted the crash involving the Jeffery Express bus and the group going to the Springsteen concert.   Never mind that the car cut across lanes and stopped in front of the bus (no less dead at 45mph than 55) but the MEDIA certainly hyped the speeding (black) driver and the innocent  suburban kids going to the concert.   

Both situations are tragic,  but tragedies don't need scapegoats.   In both situations there's a rush to pin the blame on the driver.   There is no escaping  the racial makeup of the drivers and the victims.   Perhaps that's a result of wanting Quick answers.  

Without finding out if the driver had a medical condition and without reviewing any video,  the driver in this case was ticketed.   I don't know if video would show a car on the drivers side.  I do believe that the passengers on the bus weren't interviewed by anyone at the time of the accident. 

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My introduction was not racist on my part.   The article I referenced, and other reports noted the crash involving the Jeffery Express bus and the group going to the Springsteen concert.   Never mind that the car cut across lanes and stopped in front of the bus (no less dead at 45mph than 55) but the MEDIA certainly hyped the speeding (black) driver and the innocent  suburban kids going to the concert.   

Both situations are tragic,  but tragedies don't need scapegoats.   In both situations there's a rush to pin the blame on the driver.   There is no escaping  the racial makeup of the drivers and the victims.   Perhaps that's a result of wanting Quick answers.  

Without finding out if the driver had a medical condition and without reviewing any video,  the driver in this case was ticketed.   I don't know if video would show a car on the drivers side.  I do believe that the passengers on the bus weren't interviewed by anyone at the time of the accident. 

​But basically, all if that is irrelevant. It is for the courts to make judgments.

I think you are the only one to have brought up the driver's race. By way of comparison, I don't think it entered into Brittney Haywood's firing and the NTSB report that she was pictured as an unattractive black woman. It did that she fell asleep on the controller.

Or is it that Black operators should be exempted from responsibility? I bet that 99% of them don't agree.

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​But basically, all if that is irrelevant. It is for the courts to make judgments.

I think you are the only one to have brought up the driver's race. By way of comparison, I don't think it entered into Brittney Haywood's firing and the NTSB report that she was pictured as an unattractive black woman. It did that she fell asleep on the controller.

Or is it that Black operators should be exempted from responsibility? I bet that 99% of them don't agree.

She also admitted she fell asleep at the control.   Her admitted guilt and her face being plastered everywhere said the obvious.   But CTA also shared blame concerning track  trips.  It didn't hurt that the NTSB investigated that incident.  My opinion of the media coverage doesn't change

 

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East of Wabash,  Lake Street is a two way street with 2 eastound lanes and one westbound lane. Since the lady on the bus said there was a car on each side of the bus,  either an eastbound car assumed Lake was still a one way, or the driver did run the light and was surprised by a car turning from Michigan to Lake.

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I understand wreck was at 1755, If this is correct, this would be run P283, due at S Water 1754. Itinerary for this run is a Lane School tripper to Harlem that then comes back to Addison/Lake Shore, gets on LSD at Belmont to Monroe-Columbus-Congress-Congress Plaza, wait at Plaza for leaving time, then go west on Harrison, north on State. Now if run was severely delayed on Addison so he could not make CP, the next best place to switch would be LSD-Wacker-Wabash-Lake-Michigan. You do not want to make right turn off Wacker onto Michigan NB. Maybe whoever told him where to switch thought he would still have a few minutes before S Water time, as you have 17 minutes Harrison/State to S Water, so better to have him sit on Lake or Wabash a couple of minutes instead of on Michigan at 6pm. If I were doing this, I would want to be as close to the first timepoint I would encounter after deadheading down, not a half mile away at Randolph/Columbus Lower.

Based on the Tribune report on the homepage,  the lady who said she was a passenger on the bus boarded at 17:29 so it appears that the driver wasn't running late and ran the entire schedule up to the accident. 

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Based on the Tribune report on the homepage,  the lady who said she was a passenger on the bus boarded at 17:29 so it appears that the driver wasn't running late and ran the entire schedule up to the accident. 

​Based on that article, Brian Steele was full of it on two accounts.

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Ok, how can there be people on the bus then the CPD and CFD found nobody on board when they arrived??? Is this lady along with the two others possible "bait biters" who will jump at the opportunity for money here? What do you on the forum think? I also would like to know what Busjack thinks of this.

Story

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Ok, how can there be people on the bus then the CPD and CFD found nobody on board when they arrived??? Is this lady along with the two others possible "bait biters" who will jump at the opportunity for money here? What do you on the forum think? I also would like to know what Busjack thinks of this.

Story

​The Tribune article said it wasn't the function of the police report to provide a count of the passengers on the bus. I'm also sure that the paramedics' first priority is to see if anyone is injured, and the most injured person was under the bus. On the other hand, it theoretically isn't Steele's job to broadcast ignorance.

While there have always been people willing to jump on CTA wrecks to buy a lawsuit, in this case my observation is the same as the one I had when there were conflicting reports whether the driver of some other car caused the crash--there are 10 cameras on a bus, and they should have picked up the real situation. You'll also note that the Sun-Times article you cited said that her lawyer already has the Ventra account information. Also, the woman on the bus, by admitting who she was and that she was there, has opened herself to various subpoenas to testify at depositions and trial.

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Well stories and tragedies like this always evolve over time as more information is uncovered, and this current story is showing itself to follow the usual pattern in that regard. As for the race debate, race can sometimes be tricky because it sometimes is subjective and because of the fact that people can see the same event and its aftermath in different ways based on their experiences and life experiences do include race and culture no matter how much we as a society as a whole try to avoid acknowledging. And lets stay honest with ourselves that different outlets of the media have played up race and other factors in news coverage in subtle ways that are fueled by how audiences might see the story at hand. So we have to be really careful with how fast we are to say someone is being racist or playing a race card at the very mention of race because we collectively want to believe that because it's 2015 race almost never comes into play in different arenas of daily life. Now as Art took care to say, the victim's family and the witnesses who have spoken up so far might not be doing some racial crucifying because it's safe to say they would be just as angry with any other operator in an accident like this, but his critique of how intellectually honest the media keeps itself in how it gives us the information is valid when it comes to tragedies like this. 

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... Now as Art took care to say, the victim's family and the witnesses who have spoken up so far might not be doing some racial crucifying because it's safe to say they would be just as angry with any other operator in an accident like this, but his critique of how intellectually honest the media keeps itself in how it gives us the information is valid when it comes to tragedies like this. 

​It looks like the victim's family is taking the low key approach because they can't undo the accident nor do they want to put a monkey wrench in their lawsuit. But there really isn't any reason for them to light into the driver.

With regard to the quoted passenger, she either wanted to set the record straight or aid her own lawsuit.

This one reminded me of the little girl who was run over by a bus at Sheridan and Foster, but I don't recall anything said about the female driver's race, and I challenge anyone to figure out the girl's ethnicity.

The search for that also brought up the toddler who ran in front of a bus in South Shore and was killed, and we can make certain assumptions about her race.

 

I'll agree with jajuan's general point that the media today don't do any investigation but just rely on what they are told, and "in the fog of war" the first story is usually not the whole story. This story also reflects both the Tribune's and S-T's habit of byproducting old stories (as Art noted, those killed cutting off an articulated bus on LSD) to fill the news hole.

Edited by Busjack
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​It looks like the victim's family is taking the low key approach because they can't undo the accident nor do they want to put a monkey wrench in their lawsuit. But there really isn't any reason for them to light into the driver.

With regard to the quoted passenger, she either wanted to set the record straight or aid her own lawsuit.

This one reminded me of the little girl who was run over by a bus at Sheridan and Foster, but I don't recall anything said about the female driver's race, and I challenge anyone to figure out the girl's ethnicity.

The search for that also brought up the toddler who ran in front of a bus in South Shore and was killed, and we can make certain assumptions about her race.

 

I'll agree with jajuan's general point that the media today don't do any investigation but just rely on what they are told, and "in the fog of war" the first story is usually not the whole story. This story also reflects both the Tribune's and S-T's habit of byproducting old stories (as Art noted, those killed cutting off an articula

This is first time I hear the family is suing the CTA operator in the long time and i remember in the 70's my parents friend was hit by the CTA  bus and remember the parent saying he got memory loss and it took long time to settle the suit with CTA.

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This is first time I hear the family is suing the CTA operator in the long time and i remember in the 70's my parents friend was hit by the CTA  bus and remember the parent saying he got memory loss and it took long time to settle the suit with CTA.

​The operator may be a necessary party, but the ultimate party liable is the CTA as the employer. Nobody expects any money out of the operator. CTA gets sued all the time. That's why Dorval Carter used to be the head of the law department.

CTA has gone through various phases when it was an easy mark or wasn't, while Walmart has had a history of never settling.

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... The attorneys must have good reason to include the operator on the lawsuit. So far they know more than the public but we may soon know once this goes to trial or the NTSB announces it's findings.

​I discussed this before:

  • The operator is a necessary party because he was the active agency causing the accident. CTA is not liable as an employer unless one of its employees did something, since a corporate entity can't do anything, except through some human.
  • The NTSB does not investigate bus accidents; only airplane crashes and major accidents on rail and the like.

However, the article does bring up another specification of negligence that the lawyers will use, that CTA is itself negligent for inadequate training. Carter knows that the judge will decide that one, and also that subsequent remedial measures are not admissible.

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Someone put up some interior photos of #3171 on Facebook. I'm trying to figure out if the interior is really that bowed out or is it the way it was shot. One thing for sure the roof was pushed in and buckled.

I was told #3177 had the floor buckled and collapsed, no wonder they got rid of that in a hurry.

 

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Someone put up some interior photos of #3171 on Facebook. I'm trying to figure out if the interior is really that bowed out or is it the way it was shot. One thing for sure the roof was pushed in and buckled...I was told #3177 had the floor buckled and collapsed, no wonder they got rid of that in a hurry.

 

Hard to tell from the inside view. It looks as though the cab partitions are bowed, but that's from the perspective that the outer wall looks ok, but clearly the left outer wall was caved in.

If you go back to Andre's post, probably all 12 cars are now candidates for the scrapper, but it doesn't appear that the NTSB process is over. In that, besides being wrecked, the Brief points out that the 4 cars were laid up for troubleshooting, and water was found in the control system of two, you know they are on the do not repair list once NTSB releases them.

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