Yellow Line Closure/Bus Shuttle

[BusHunter]

I finally got to see what was running the Yellow line shuttles. Exclusively old Novas from FG!! I was kind of surprised. I guess Skokie doesn't rate.

So I got to thinking, with Oakton-Skokie now open as an official station, why don't they run the shuttles between Oakton and Howard? I know one train was trapped in this, possibly two. Also with new #5000's coming in they could possibly add a new set to the mile track, but they probably wouldn't need more than two consists. They could actually store trains at Skokie Shops. I would think a straight shot down Oakton would be faster than a trip from Dempster, which adds 10 blocks.

The only reason I can think of why not is maybe there is no way to only cut power east of Skokie Shops? But that would extremely limit Skokie Shops functions as they would have no power. Trains in front of the shop doors have to be transported by gas motor cars (no 3rd rail) , so that's not an issue, but all the cars on the storage tracks should have third rail power. If cut then the gas motor would have t go over there and get them and I wonder if there are clearance issues. A unique problem indeed!!

 

Edited May 28, 2015 by BusHunter

[geneking7320]

I think I have seen a few NF artics from "P" doing the shuttles also.

[juelzkellz]

I finally got to see what was running the Yellow line shuttles. Exclusively old Novas from FG!! I was kind of surprised. I guess Skokie doesn't rate.

So I got to thinking, with Oakton-Skokie now open as an official station, why don't they run the shuttles between Oakton and Howard? I know one train was trapped in this, possibly two. Also with new #5000's coming in they could possibly add a new set to the mile track, but they probably wouldn't need more than two consists. They could actually store trains at Skokie Shops. I would think a straight shot down Oakton would be faster than a trip from Dempster, which adds 10 blocks.

The only reason I can think of why not is maybe there is no way to only cut power east of Skokie Shops? But that would extremely limit Skokie Shops functions as they would have no power. Trains in front of the shop doors have to be transported by gas motor cars (no 3rd rail) , so that's not an issue, but all the cars on the storage tracks should have third rail power. If cut then the gas motor would have t go over there and get them and I wonder if there are clearance issues. A unique problem indeed!!

 

​There are a few problems with running the shuttles from Oakton-Skokie instead of Dempster-Skokie. First, all of the people who park at Dempster would be screwed because there's no way to get from Dempster to Oakton besides the 54A and the 97, and to add on to that, there's not nearly enough parking around the Oakton stop as it is around Dempster. Second, all of the people who would want to transfer to the 250 would also be screwed unless the 250 was routed to Oakton instead of Dempster, which Pace would never do.

[strictures]

I finally got to see what was running the Yellow line shuttles. Exclusively old Novas from FG!! I was kind of surprised. I guess Skokie doesn't rate.

So I got to thinking, with Oakton-Skokie now open as an official station, why don't they run the shuttles between Oakton and Howard? I know one train was trapped in this, possibly two. Also with new #5000's coming in they could possibly add a new set to the mile track, but they probably wouldn't need more than two consists. They could actually store trains at Skokie Shops. I would think a straight shot down Oakton would be faster than a trip from Dempster, which adds 10 blocks.

The only reason I can think of why not is maybe there is no way to only cut power east of Skokie Shops? But that would extremely limit Skokie Shops functions as they would have no power. Trains in front of the shop doors have to be transported by gas motor cars (no 3rd rail) , so that's not an issue, but all the cars on the storage tracks should have third rail power. If cut then the gas motor would have t go over there and get them and I wonder if there are clearance issues. A unique problem indeed!!

 

​They assign that same worn out junk to the 97 & the 200s that run in Evanston & Skokie.

[Busjack]

...

So I got to thinking, with Oakton-Skokie now open as an official station, why don't they run the shuttles between Oakton and Howard? I know one train was trapped in this, possibly two. Also with new #5000's coming in they could possibly add a new set to the mile track, but they probably wouldn't need more than two consists. They could actually store trains at Skokie Shops. I would think a straight shot down Oakton would be faster than a trip from Dempster, which adds 10 blocks.

The only reason I can think of why not is maybe there is no way to only cut power east of Skokie Shops? But that would extremely limit Skokie Shops functions as they would have no power. Trains in front of the shop doors have to be transported by gas motor cars (no 3rd rail) , so that's not an issue, but all the cars on the storage tracks should have third rail power. If cut then the gas motor would have t go over there and get them and I wonder if there are clearance issues. A unique problem indeed!!

 

​I'm not following what you are saying here. If you mean train shuttle, there is no way one can run a train shuttle between Oakton and Howard, because the track is out between those two points (at McCormick). Hence, whether there is power there or not is irrelevant.

If you meant a train only between Oakton and Dempster, that would just cause a transfer at Oakton, where the Kiss and Ride doesn't seem capable of handling buses (given the hairpin turn) and certainly not the bus terminal available at Dempster. Then, as juelz points out, Oakton really doesn't have the facilities if you are contemplating those on an Oakton Dempster train having to transfer to a bus at Oakton.

[Juniorz]

Seems like they use the Nova's during the day and the arctics during the evening/night. 

[MetroShadow]

At this point, Pace has no detour in effect (although there was a concern for the 620 and 626 out of the Swift - basically you just need to add 20 minutes to your commute or take Metra).

[BusHunter]

​I'm not following what you are saying here. If you mean train shuttle, there is no way one can run a train shuttle between Oakton and Howard, because the track is out between those two points (at McCormick). Hence, whether there is power there or not is irrelevant.

If you meant a train only between Oakton and Dempster, that would just cause a transfer at Oakton, where the Kiss and Ride doesn't seem capable of handling buses (given the hairpin turn) and certainly not the bus terminal available at Dempster. Then, as juelz points out, Oakton really doesn't have the facilities if you are contemplating those on an Oakton Dempster train having to transfer to a bus at Oakton.

​They have plenty of room at Oakton, plus a bus can just turn around using Searle as that's 2 lanes one in each direction. Cicero couldn't handle a few buses on that long strip to oakton? Right now I'm questioning the space issue at Dempster. Where do the bus shuttles fit with the #626's, #250's #97's and #54A's showing up, 3 of 4 routes in both directions? If I'm riding a #250, I don't see the point of getting off there, just ride on to Davis Purple line.

And no I'm not talking about a train between Oakton and howard but I hear Indy is interested in a new adventure.

Also to clarify, I'm saying run a train between Dempster and Oakton.

Edited May 28, 2015 by BusHunter

[Busjack]

​...

Also to clarify, I'm saying run a train between Dempster and Oakton.

​At least you did, but I still don't see any upside to giving riders from Dempster a 1 minute train ride just to have to transfer to a bus at Oakton.

[NewFlyerMCI]

Seems like they use the Nova's during the day and the arctics during the evening/night. 

​I'm assuming the artics are from NP? The routes they run the artics on (except maybe the 22 during games, 151 and 147) can work without artics during the daytime. It just seems like a mismanagement of buses to run artics during evening/night when less people are riding barring major events, instead of just continuing with any 40-foot bus.

[juelzkellz]

​I'm assuming the artics are from NP? The routes they run the artics on (except maybe the 22 during games, 151 and 147) can work without artics during the daytime. It just seems like a mismanagement of buses to run artics during evening/night when less people are riding barring major events, instead of just continuing with any 40-foot bus.

​Exactly. I never understood why the #66 runs with artics all night. The #22 also. Such a waste of space and gas. I remember during the Dan Ryan Reconstruction, the Cermak-Chinatown/Roosevelt shuttle would run with artics 24/7. I know because I caught one at 2-3AM on my way back from Chinatown. I think I was the only one on the bus. Such a waste of space and gas.

[wordguy]

I'm not sure if it's still the case,   but historically many owl runs have operated through the AM rush period.   That might explain the use of artics overnight on routes like the #22,   which often operates its owl service with a mix of artics and straight units.   

But regarding the #66,   you may have a good point seeing as how that route has virtually no barn runs.  Maybe the folks with the green eye-shades know whether it's more cost-effective to switch a bus in time for the AM rush as opposed to absorbing the extra expense of operating an artic overnight.

[BusHunter]

The #66 artics are hybrids, using the gas of a 40 foot diesel bus, but they might still be paying in electricity as they are plugins. You would think they would be recharging overnight. Electric prices should be lower overnight as there is not a heavy demand on power. Maybe they have extras. The #22 is so busy it might need an artic at night especially on Cubs game nights that's no brainer as the bars stay open late and Clark is bar HQ. 

Edited May 30, 2015 by BusHunter

[juelzkellz]

I'm not sure if it's still the case,   but historically many owl runs have operated through the AM rush period.   That might explain the use of artics overnight on routes like the #22,   which often operates its owl service with a mix of artics and straight units.   

But regarding the #66,   you may have a good point seeing as how that route has virtually no barn runs.  Maybe the folks with the green eye-shades know whether it's more cost-effective to switch a bus in time for the AM rush as opposed to absorbing the extra expense of operating an artic overnight.

​What are barn runs specifically? During rush hour, some #66 runs short turn at Pulaski and at night all #66 runs terminate at Pulaski also. Chicago garage is not far away from there, so maybe they find some time to switch the buses out.

[jajuan]

I'm not sure if it's still the case,   but historically many owl runs have operated through the AM rush period.   That might explain the use of artics overnight on routes like the #22,   which often operates its owl service with a mix of artics and straight units.   

But regarding the #66,   you may have a good point seeing as how that route has virtually no barn runs.  Maybe the folks with the green eye-shades know whether it's more cost-effective to switch a bus in time for the AM rush as opposed to absorbing the extra expense of operating an artic overnight.

​In the case of the 22, not very many artics are used in overnight hours. Maybe one at most is seen during those hours, but for the most part 22's owl service is run with standard length 40 foot NFs as that's the only period that riderships on this route tapers off significantly outside of weekday middays not connected to Cubs home game days being small enough that that period of service is more suited to 40 footers. During morning rush they do pull artics out on the 22 which cover most of the service in AM rush. Some of those artics find their way on to NP's share of the 151 as AM rush winds down while a lot of the others pull in and go back to the garage. 22's midday service as noted above is then covered by 40 foot buses, some of which operated on morning 148 runs that are interlined with the midday 22. Many of those 40 foot buses then find themselves on the 135 and 136 during the PM rush through another interline. 136 gets many of them first after 4 PM and 135 starts getting them after 5:30 PM. Those 40 footers on the 22 that switch over to 135 and 136 get gradually replaced by artics in the PM rush starting with NB trips that leave Clark/Harrison in the 4 PM hour. Some of the rest of the artics seen on 22 during weekday PM rush and evening hours still come from an interline with 147, mainly through a few NB 147 buses becoming SB 22s at Howard Terminal during the tail end of PM rush. I can say from experience that artics on the 22 during evening hours is indeed justified because ridership coming out of downtown tends to stay relatively high by bus service standards on even as it gets close to midnight. As the weekend approaches SB buses see ridership get higher and approach some of the higher numbers I've observed on NB buses.

[BusHunter]

I saw last week how artics sort of fail due to their size in the rush and on a tight street. I was on an #82 on an artic and that bus was slow because it had to maneuver through traffic and the street is tight. Two 40 foot buses passed it up. So maybe that could be one of the issues on 79th. While some of the street is wide some is narrow and buses bunching up is not going to help anyone.

Now I'm hearing the Yellow line won't be open until Labor Day??? Say it ain't so!!

[jajuan]

I saw last week how artics sort of fail due to their size in the rush and on a tight street. I was on an #82 on an artic and that bus was slow because it had to maneuver through traffic and the street is tight. Two 40 foot buses passed it up. So maybe that could be one of the issues on 79th. While some of the street is wide some is narrow and buses bunching up is not going to help anyone.

Now I'm hearing the Yellow line won't be open until Labor Day??? Say it ain't so!!

​Labor Day? If that's true, it's going to get pretty interesting for Skokie riders who happen to be Cubs fans and those home games go into full swing during the summer. There has to be a significant number of Skokie residents who are Cubs fans for CTA to have been increasing Yellow Line evening service for Cubs night games. And that doesn't count expanded service offered for downtown summer fests and the big events like Taste of Chicago (even in its reduced form under Mayor Emanuel) and Lollapolooza. As far as artics go, I still try to picture how any artics that have operated on the 82 have maneuvered that tight left turn that brings buses in front of the south entrance of the mall after they make that right turn off the main driveway buses use leading off McCormick Boulevard. Anyone who's been to that mall would know that that east section of the mall parking lot on the mall's south end is configured in such a way that a couple of spots in the south lot's driving paths can be tight even for Pace's 30 foot transit buses. So imagine how tight it has to be for a CTA 60 foot artic.

[BusHunter]

I don't know what's so hard about replacing an embankment? It should have already been open. What are they doing shoveling a scoop of dirt per day? I hope they didn't bring in consultants, this makes a simple thing complicated.

As far as artics at the Lincolnwood Mall, CTA claims an artic is easier to drive because it has 2 30 foot sections. Tell that to the guys that's driving them. 

[Busjack]

I don't know what's so hard about replacing an embankment? It should have already been open. What are they doing shoveling a scoop of dirt per day? I hope they didn't bring in consultants, this makes a simple thing complicated.

...

​It undoubtedly is an engineering issue, as you don't want the mud pile to collapse immediately again.

[BusHunter]

Put up some concrete retaining walls then. I wouldn't put dirt I would just fill it with rocks or ballast. Dirt sinks after you put it in place, ballast shouldn't do that. Isn't that what they did on the east side of McCormick?

Edited June 2, 2015 by BusHunter

[Busjack]

Put up some concrete retaining walls then. I wouldn't put dirt I would just fill it with rocks or ballast. Dirt sinks after you put it in place, ballast shouldn't do that. Isn't that what they did on the east side of McCormick?

​Not an instant gratification solution, and you don't know what the MWRD did to undermine it in the first instance.

[BusHunter]

Let's just hope they don't find faults with the entire embankment or we'll be here until next year. I always wondered why they didn't have an iron structure closer to Skokie Shops then they do. There's really no neighbors to disturb there if it's a sound issue, but probably nowadays it would be concrete. Maybe that embankment is too high? i can't think of a higher one at CTA.

[Busjack]

Let's just hope they don't find faults with the entire embankment or we'll be here until next year. I always wondered why they didn't have an iron structure closer to Skokie Shops then they do. There's really no neighbors to disturb there if it's a sound issue, but probably nowadays it would be concrete. Maybe that embankment is too high? i can't think of a higher one at CTA.

​It probably gets down to when the North Shore constructed it, as it was not originally constructed as an L but as a high speed interurban.

[sw4400]

Even if they built concrete supports or even decided to go with a iron elevated structure and supports, it still wouldn't matter if the people doing construction at MWRD made some major error(like it sounds like they hit a water main, or sewer main in this case) and even with supports, if the ground becomes compromised, the supports could fail and the same exact thing can happen. Let's say for example, a water main was broken via construction or on it's own right here.... two(three if you count rush periods) major lines would be stopped for a indefinite period while work is done to stabilize the ground so the structure can be strengthened and re-tested.

What might need to be done is reroute the Yellow Line if possible in a new direction. It'll take time, an emergency grant from the state of Illinois, and patience on the village of Skokie, but it might be the only way to go if the current structure is compromised for good and not safe to use anymore.

That, or close the Yellow Line and create a bus route instead that will take passengers from Howard to Oakton and Dempster permanently. As long as MWRD are doing this project, the safety of the Yellow Line passengers is in the balance every day, especially if these geniuses recreate the incident again.

[Busjack]

...

That, or close the Yellow Line and create a bus route instead that will take passengers from Howard to Oakton and Dempster permanently.

​That's not going to go over so well for the feds, who put money into the Oakton station, which still has probably 38 years left on its service life. Probably would be up to Skokie (the grantee) to refund that money, so you just put it in a bigger pickle. At the present time, it looks like it is the MWRD's responsibility to fix the mess it caused.

Also, doesn't solve the problem that the Skokie Shop is on the wrong side of the breach.