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Red Line Is "Goin Back To Ashland-63rd"

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The only thing I question is the running of green line trains to 63rd Ashland. Either they could run more trains to cottage grove or run the red lines light to 63rd. Seems like they are wasting money generating the signage at the stations, on the trains and printing new maps. But from a train fan perspective its fabulous.

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Finally getting this back to the correct topic:

5 hours ago, BusHunter said:

The only thing I question is the running of green line trains to 63rd Ashland. Either they could run more trains to cottage grove or run the red lines light to 63rd. Seems like they are wasting money generating the signage at the stations, on the trains and printing new maps. But from a train fan perspective its fabulous.

The distinction from the last time was that all service on the Dan Ryan was suspended for the rebuild, so there was a consistent excess of train capacity allowing cutting back some Green Line trains in the Loop. This only involves some off peak trains laying over at Ashland. It's bad enough that some riders from the north side going to the south side might be confused; no reason to confuse the regular Green Line passengers riding midday.

On the signs, I said before that maybe in the computer age, they don't cost so much to print.

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5 hours ago, Busjack said:

Finally getting this back to the correct topic:

The distinction from the last time was that all service on the Dan Ryan was suspended for the rebuild, so there was a consistent excess of train capacity allowing cutting back some Green Line trains in the Loop. This only involves some off peak trains laying over at Ashland. It's bad enough that some riders from the north side going to the south side might be confused; no reason to confuse the regular Green Line passengers riding midday.

On the signs, I said before that maybe in the computer age, they don't cost so much to print.

It would just be in the rush when the red line was going to ashland 63rd. I don't see a major confusion with that. 95 percent of riders would be unaffected. If anything east 63rd could have better rush service.

I wonder if it wouldnt be too ridiculous to possibly branch off the red line there at roosevelt full time. I mean ridership on the south green line is particularly weak. It could shake up the ridership to have not only a west side direct link but a north side one too. Demand on the north side could be fed by two lines which is not a bad thing. If something closed one line you have the other. If headways are too tight on the 95th branch they could be shared with the englewood branch red line. I've rode to 95th in the rush it seems to have standing loads sometimes to 79th but only in the peak of the rush hour. if cutting 95th service is too drastic i wonder if they couldn't beef up north side headways even closer by doing this if they kept red line south service as is normally and added more trains via englewood. Playing with the fleet I believe they could actually increase service on the north side red, by far the heaviest of all ridership lines. Something to be explored maybe. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I wonder if it wouldnt be too ridiculous to possibly branch off the red line there at roosevelt full time.

To summarize my view on the entire post, it would make sense only if demand was so high on the Green Line alternative to justify more than every 7.5 minutes from Garfield north (which was an improvement from once every 10). Even if the north and south ends of the Red Line are unbalanced, south side riders still seem to have shown a preference for the Red Line. Comparison

Station		Red	Green
Cermak		4400	1500
35th		4700	2000
47th		3200	1200
Garfield	3700	1300

From Nov.2016 Ridership Report, roughly rounded. But, basically 2.5 times the riders board at the Red Line stations than the Green Line ones.

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But the question is why? Because there is a bigger draw on the north side? Did the Howard Englewood have more riders? If the issue is transferring that would eliminate that. I have to admit though its probably speed because with the new 90s era tunnel connection the red line is all that much faster only problem seems to be gridlock which can hold up traffic on the line.

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3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

But the question is why? Because there is a bigger draw on the north side? Did the Howard Englewood have more riders? If the issue is transferring that would eliminate that. I have to admit though its probably speed because with the new 90s era tunnel connection the red line is all that much faster only problem seems to be gridlock which can hold up traffic on the line.

Ever since the  Dan Ryan  line opened in  1969, it has siphoned  ridership  from  the SSM, especially  from  63rd northward.   It didn't  matter  whether it's  the  Lake-Dan Ryan  or the Howard -Dan Ryan.   Fewer stops,  newer  equipment,  and the perception that the expressway  train is safer than the  SSM.   Also  the Sox Park is  right  there  at 35th  station.

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4 hours ago, BusHunter said:

But the question is why? Because there is a bigger draw on the north side? Did the Howard Englewood have more riders? If the issue is transferring that would eliminate that. I have to admit though its probably speed because with the new 90s era tunnel connection the red line is all that much faster only problem seems to be gridlock which can hold up traffic on the line.

 

33 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Ever since the  Dan Ryan  line opened in  1969, it has siphoned  ridership  from  the SSM, especially  from  63rd northward.   It didn't  matter  whether it's  the  Lake-Dan Ryan  or the Howard -Dan Ryan.   Fewer stops,  newer  equipment,  and the perception that the expressway  train is safer than the  SSM.   Also  the Sox Park is  right  there  at 35th  station.

There were also the issues of what station was in what gang territory (raised during the 1990s rebuild) and generally the depopulation of the area between King Dr. and Wells., If one is transferring to a bus, would one rather do it on the expressway bridge or in front of Ray's Music Exchange? I suppose that's one reason what when buses were rerouted from 43rd and 51st to 47-Dan Ryan during that rebuild, they never went back. Similarly, the area around 63-Cottage Grove is just now starting to redevelop. Maybe the reason 63-King Dr. has not returned as a transfer station is that Parkway Gardens is a violent place.

It also didn't make sense to me that the Garfield Green Line station was rebuilt on the north side of the boulevard,when the Red Line station was already there. With the old station, one could theoretically stagger the trip by going from Hyde Park to the Red Line and to Hyde Park on the Green, but now you have to cross the parkway and about 8 lanes of traffic to nowheresville.

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26 minutes ago, Busjack said:

 

There were also the issues of what station was in what gang territory (raised during the 1990s rebuild) and generally the depopulation of the area between King Dr. and Wells., If one is transferring to a bus, would one rather do it on the expressway bridge or in front of Ray's Music Exchange? I suppose that's one reason what when buses were rerouted from 43rd and 51st to 47-Dan Ryan during that rebuild, they never went back. Similarly, the area around 63-Cottage Grove is just now starting to redevelop. Maybe the reason 63-King Dr. has not returned as a transfer station is that Parkway Gardens is a violent place.

It also didn't make sense to me that the Garfield Green Line station was rebuilt on the north side of the boulevard,when the Red Line station was already there. With the old station, one could theoretically stagger the trip by going from Hyde Park to the Red Line and to Hyde Park on the Green, but now you have to cross the parkway and about 8 lanes of traffic to nowheresville.

Those  reasons  are also  true.  Historically.  the expressway train was the  downfall  of the  SSM.  When  the Dan Ryan line opened in  1969, it advertised  a 19 minute  trip from 95th to the Loop.  It's a  15 minute trip from  95th  by car at 55 mph.   Back then  it was skip stop service.  So from 63rd,  you only  stopped at  47th  and 35th before  stopping at  Adams/Wabash.   It was perception that  it was faster,  or more convenient,  to take  the 63rd  street  bus and transfer  than take a  branch train. Especially  when the  Dan Ryan trains had Air Conditioning  ad the 6000s on the "Old L".  

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12 hours ago, artthouwill said:

When  the Dan Ryan line opened in  1969, it advertised  a 19 minute  trip from 95th to the Loop.  It's a  15 minute trip from  95th  by car at 55 mph.

Traffic also backed up southbound at the 47th St. curve (apparently due to the local-express merge at 71st), and the L train sped past that.

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I think what hurts the south side elevated too is this trip it takes through the loop which is slow with its gridlock and trains waiting for signals at the towers and such. This may be why ridership is so low because they now have a combination of the slower service. Doing a bypass at the roosevelt incline couldnt hurt. 

You know how the purple line is expanding with all these new stations and such. Maybe it would be interesting to send it to 63rd Ashland. It has less frequency than say a brown line and it could stand to run as an express service 7 days a week. The nsm does that good, that it may be time to explore that option as well. If pace can run the #600 everyday, I think that alone can justify this service besides the lsd express' for the most part do it.

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2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

I think what hurts the south side elevated too is this trip it takes through the loop which is slow with its gridlock and trains waiting for signals at the towers and such. This may be why ridership is so low because they now have a combination of the slower service.

The problem with that theory is that the Dan Ryan stuck it to the SSM when it was the Lake-Dan Ryan over the same route in the Loop and the Loop was much more congested then. The reason that Howard and Dan Ryan were linked was that Englewood/Jackson Park-Howard was too unbalanced.

 

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

You know how the purple line is expanding with all these new stations and such. Maybe it would be interesting to send it to 63rd Ashland.

Theoretically, if it is supposed to become an "express" alternative to the north Red Line, they'll have to turn it back somewhere (especially if, to be a true alternative, it goes into the subway). Probably only to 35th, though.

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Ill throw one more out there to show how things atrophied. When Ashland-63 first opened, it was designed as a big multimodal station, and stuff like Suburban Transit System had a terminal there. Now it is a big nothing.

Similar issue to when I remember that Sears at 63-Halsted was a big draw. Wonder if people are taking the L to Whole Foods.

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1 hour ago, Busjack said:

The problem with that theory is that the Dan Ryan stuck it to the SSM when it was the Lake-Dan Ryan over the same route in the Loop and the Loop was much more congested then. The reason that Howard and Dan Ryan were linked was that Englewood/Jackson Park-Howard was too unbalanced.

 

Theoretically, if it is supposed to become an "express" alternative to the north Red Line, they'll have to turn it back somewhere (especially if, to be a true alternative, it goes into the subway). Probably only to 35th, though.

On your first point, while ridership may have been low in the howard-englewood/jackson park era, it is my understanding that now its lower. I believe it's the lowest ridership of all lines even pink but only if you figure from the loop south. 

Ultimately this purple line suggestion if it worked out would do what I suggested before and supplement the red line but as a bonus have express features and be able to serve Evanston on a one trip ride into the loop. I think we can all agree a supplemental service for the state street subway is needed and it seems like it's time has come sooner rather than later. 

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Some thoughts about reorganizing downtown service patterns:

In the peak hour, there are currently 20 Red Line trains, and 10 Purple Line trains. Running both lines in the subway would mean that the CTA would need to be able to sustain 2 minute headways. I'm not sure how well CTA would be able to manage this - the busiest track of the loop sees about 28 trains in the peak hour, and the Brown/Purple manage 27 trains at the busiest, and the substations might need an upgrade.

My personal preference would be to combine the Orange and Purple into one line, and run via the subway. The benefit would be a direct SW-N link as well as the possibility to run N Side express service all day. It would require a pretty significant increase in resources however, especially in the evening period where it may be less justified.

Moving Orange and Purple (or to a lesser extent, Green south) to the subway could allow for a much less congested trip on the loop, and open slots for other service expansion.

A big problem also comes up if Orange and Purple are moved to the subway. Brown line capacity cannot be added because of the shared track with the Green Line on Wabash and Lake. Some sort of supplementary Brown Line service on the inner loop would have to be added to balance the traffic on the inner and outer loops, which would be confusing for riders. Alternatively Harlem-bound Green Line trains would have to use Van Buren and Wells, which is also confusing for riders.

If the SS Green Line was moved to the subway (and combined with Purple), perhaps the WS Green Line could run on the inner loop. Combined Green-Pink-Orange service would be about 24 trains at the peak hour, and the Brown line could run 27-28 trains at the peak hour on the outer loop. If 30 trains in the peak hour were possible, there could be service every 6 minutes on the express north of Belmont, and every 2-4 minutes on the locals. Between Belmont and Roosevelt, there would be a train every 2 minutes. 95th service would be every 2-4 minutes, while Ashland and Cottage Grove would have 12 minute frequencies for each branch. With the way that the infrastructure is set up, this could be a much more elegant solution.

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25 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

Some thoughts about reorganizing downtown service patterns:

In the peak hour, there are currently 20 Red Line trains, and 10 Purple Line trains. Running both lines in the subway would mean that the CTA would need to be able to sustain 2 minute headways. I'm not sure how well CTA would be able to manage this - the busiest track of the loop sees about 28 trains in the peak hour, and the Brown/Purple manage 27 trains at the busiest, and the substations might need an upgrade.

My personal preference would be to combine the Orange and Purple into one line, and run via the subway. The benefit would be a direct SW-N link as well as the possibility to run N Side express service all day. It would require a pretty significant increase in resources however, especially in the evening period where it may be less justified.

Moving Orange and Purple (or to a lesser extent, Green south) to the subway could allow for a much less congested trip on the loop, and open slots for other service expansion.

A big problem also comes up if Orange and Purple are moved to the subway. Brown line capacity cannot be added because of the shared track with the Green Line on Wabash and Lake. Some sort of supplementary Brown Line service on the inner loop would have to be added to balance the traffic on the inner and outer loops, which would be confusing for riders. Alternatively Harlem-bound Green Line trains would have to use Van Buren and Wells, which is also confusing for riders.

If the SS Green Line was moved to the subway (and combined with Purple), perhaps the WS Green Line could run on the inner loop. Combined Green-Pink-Orange service would be about 24 trains at the peak hour, and the Brown line could run 27-28 trains at the peak hour on the outer loop. If 30 trains in the peak hour were possible, there could be service every 6 minutes on the express north of Belmont, and every 2-4 minutes on the locals. Between Belmont and Roosevelt, there would be a train every 2 minutes. 95th service would be every 2-4 minutes, while Ashland and Cottage Grove would have 12 minute frequencies for each branch. With the way that the infrastructure is set up, this could be a much more elegant solution.

I think the Purple  and current  SSM would be the  best  combo.  Only 6 car consists  for peak service  would be  needed  and headway on both  ends can be maintained.   Then, as you stated,  west side  Green  Line  trains can circle  the inner loop.  Loop train  traffic would  become  less congested  as the Outer  Loop track becomes  exclusively  Brown  Line and the Inner  Loop track loses  the Purple.   If Sheridan  and Wilson  become  Purple  stops,  or even just  Wison, Purple is a  great  Red Line  supplement  on both sides of  town. 

The added  bonus for  the West side is you could  either make  the Green Line  trains  8 car consists,  orthru route the Green and  Pink  Lines.   For instance, inbound  Green Line trains can  be outbound  Pink Lines and vice versa.

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Yeah I agree with art on the 8 car consists. Purple line stations are only built for 6 cars and would need platform extensions to work with the orange line. Maybe every other brown line could circle the loop in either direction, they would have to introduce another color line though or have a brown stripe line or something. I don't know if the green line circling the loop would really be efficient the pink line already does that in the same direction. I really don't like all this traffic on the loop L it slows down the traffic. It's not unusual to see pink and green lines stacked to the lake street bridge in the rush. Somewhere that needs to be addressed.

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7 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

In the peak hour, there are currently 20 Red Line trains, and 10 Purple Line trains. Running both lines in the subway would mean that the CTA would need to be able to sustain 2 minute headways. I'm not sure how well CTA would be able to manage this

 

7 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

My personal preference would be to combine the Orange and Purple into one line, and run via the subway. The benefit would be a direct SW-N link as well as the possibility to run N Side express service all day. It would require a pretty significant increase in resources however, especially in the evening period where it may be less justified.

How do the two add up? And then where would you store the cars for the Brown Line, which now make up the 9 Brownage trips per rush?

 

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On 4/7/2017 at 7:39 PM, BusHunter said:

It would just be in the rush when the red line was going to ashland 63rd. I don't see a major confusion with that. 95 percent of riders would be unaffected. If anything east 63rd could have better rush service.

I wonder if it wouldnt be too ridiculous to possibly branch off the red line there at roosevelt full time. I mean ridership on the south green line is particularly weak. It could shake up the ridership to have not only a west side direct link but a north side one too. Demand on the north side could be fed by two lines which is not a bad thing. If something closed one line you have the other. If headways are too tight on the 95th branch they could be shared with the englewood branch red line. I've rode to 95th in the rush it seems to have standing loads sometimes to 79th but only in the peak of the rush hour. if cutting 95th service is too drastic i wonder if they couldn't beef up north side headways even closer by doing this if they kept red line south service as is normally and added more trains via englewood. Playing with the fleet I believe they could actually increase service on the north side red, by far the heaviest of all ridership lines. Something to be explored maybe. 

 

 

Besides Busjack's point that demand isn't there to justify this being a permanent change due to the imbalance of demand between Lake and Dan Ryan service and between Howard and the SSM being a cause for the south end swaps in first place 24 years ago, the other side of it was also because what is now the Orange Line was set to open that October, eight months after they did the big swap of service in February of 1993. Even in 1993, CTA was expecting big numbers for Midway trains and as a result quoted safety concerns over too many people being held on Loop Elevated platforms waiting for and transferring between busy Dan Ryan trains and Midway trains as the other big reason they needed to connect Lake with the SSM and Howard with the Dan Ryan. Even more relevant though is that from personal experience observing my fellow North siders, they like other CTA riders tend to be creatures of habit and slow to change. What relative few that ride beyond downtown onward to south side destinations compared to south side riders staying on board NB trains beyond downtown into the north side just hop on the train without observing destination signs or listening to train announcements. This is why there would always be a lot of grumbling about not being informed ahead of time of certain trains needing to run express or on some rare occasions needing to terminate at Roosevelt and head back north. So confusion is the appropriate word in this case, and keeping it minimized to the current setup is an appropriate concern. Heck I still remember waiting on Loop platforms for Purple Line Express trains at the halfway mark of the Dan Ryan rebuild and still hearing a significant number of folks complain that they weren't informed that none of the Green Line trains would go to 63/Ashland and that only Red Line trains were going there until that project was completed even though CTA spent months before construction continually reaching out and getting word out.

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Well the north side red line service would be additional service. They need more service badly on the red line especially in the peak direction. Like yesterday for instance not only do you have the overcrowd of the rush hour you have the overcrowd of cubs fans getting to Wrigley which will be more of a concern with adding more night games. 

But really the better idea would be to make those purple lines as you have not only added service you added more efficient service with express trains. This is what makes agencies like the mta so good. (I thought I read at least 20 percent of New Yorkers use the mta) The ability to move riders across the city quickly and efficiently. 

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1 minute ago, BusHunter said:

Well the north side red line service would be additional service. They need more service badly on the red line especially in the peak direction. Like yesterday for instance not only do you have the overcrowd of the rush hour you have the overcrowd of cubs fans getting to Wrigley which will be more of a concern with adding more night games. 

But really the better idea would be to make those purple lines as you have not only added service you added more efficient service with express trains. This is what makes agencies like the mta so good. (I thought I read at least 20 percent of New Yorkers use the mta) The ability to move riders across the city quickly and efficiently. 

Essentially though, you won't get that until Wilson, Clark Jct.and the RPM are done, i.e. maybe 2027. Then it might be possible.

However, as I noted above, it would make sense to run the express only to Roosevelt. As the Crowd Reduction Plan demonstrated, CTA puts resources where the crowds are, and that certainly isn't south of there, as you acknowledge. Real crowd pressure is on the north side (Red and Brown).

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Nothing would really change north of Clark junction. The problem with a Roosevelt terminus would be where to turn around the trains. I suppose you could put a crossover on the incline but what I propose not only does something for the north side it would do something for the south side.

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I finally got to ride a Red bound for Ashland/63 Wednesday afternoon from Howard to Cermak/McCormick Place.

I could have waited for a Purple this way a got a 1 seat ride. :)

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12 hours ago, geneking7320 said:

I finally got to ride a Red bound for Ashland/63 Wednesday afternoon from Howard to Cermak/McCormick Place.

I could have waited for a Purple this way a got a 1 seat ride. :)

How was the  crowd  south of Roosevelt  on your ride?

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On 4/28/2017 at 0:17 PM, artthouwill said:

How was the  crowd  south of Roosevelt  on your ride?

I thought it was roughly average. I sat in the second car as I wanted to be close to the station exit on the south side of Cermak. I should note that at Howard the

electronic signboard at the south end of the station [in the area above the tracks] showed 95/Ashland - 63]. Shouldn't CTA know and be able to show the exact destination? O.o

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