Circle Line / Gray Line

[Busjack]

But if that is your attitude, no wonder you have gotten nowhere

>> What "attitude" should I have when dealing with folks who have decided ANY answer is give is invalid before I even open my mouth.

And if I do make a valid point, you make sure to ignore that and jump to something else -- to get some other answer you'll ignore.

You seemed to have missed my point: "Not to mention your wasting time trying to convince commenters on various internet boards, all of whom have no influence."

So, the only thing I have to say that is relevant is how you have fouled up in trying to convince anyone who has any influence.

If you were going to do that, you would have had the market analyses. In effect, you are trying to convince Rahm Emanuel to back you, without any supporting facts, when in fact he has other things on his plate,* and you say City Hall sent a consultant to kill the project.

So, trying to get me to respond, especially when you go into irrelevancies like Block 37, completely misses the point. The point is that you have totally failed to convince anyone who could bring economic development to the South Side.

___________

*Not even Emanuel has yet to convince a private partner to get in on a TIF to develop the 115th St. area if the partner would contribute to extending the L there. So much for "if you build it they will orgasm."

[artthouwill]

>> No matter how many times I've explained this (and it is explained on multiple website pages), it is still misunderstood -- the Gray Line would be operated using ONLY Metra Electric Highliners operated ONLY by Metra crews BECAUSE Metra is a Class I Railroad.

It is STRICTLY Forbidden by FRA Regulations for CTA type equipment to run in common with Class I type Rolling Stock at any point.

Using the E X I S T I N G Class I Railroad Rapid-Transit Physical Plant, and Class I Rolling Stock is the WHOLE point of the Proposal -- and why there is such a low Major Capital Project implementation cost.

CTA would ONLY send Gray Line Train Schedules to Metra for Implementation by Metra Class I Trains and Crews.

Neither CTA Equipment, nor CTA Personnel, would be in any way, shape, or form involved in Train Operation; this is stated quite clearly in the first few lines of this Gray Line website Published way back in December of 2006; http://community-2.webtv.net/GLRTS/GRAYLINECONVERSION/

I simply do not / cannot understand how people keep missing (or ignore) that very important point.

I M P O R T A N T -- PLEASE READ >> CTA WOULD HAVE N O T H I N G TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL OPERATION OF THE GRAY LINE TRAINS.

Since the Gray Line would be Operated with the same Class I Equipment, by the same Class I Crews, on the same Class I Physical Plant, under the same FRA Jurisdiction -- Where would there be a conflict??

Please tell me if this did, or didn't address your concerns trainman.

Thanks for your opinion, and comments..

Your posts are not misunderstood.

Let me make this perfectly clear. I actually got to see you at one of the CTA's hearings though I didn't get the chance to introduce myself to you. Based on what I heard you say there, I know you are passionate about public transportation (as all of us on this forum are) and we all agree that we would love to see improvements across the CTA, Metra, and Pace systems. Having lived in the South Shore area before, I am quite acquainted with the service there and it has actually improved since I last lived there. You seem to be a very likeable person, so there is nothing personal I have against you.

However, I believe that we all have offered opinions concerning your idea that point out flaws and reasons why your idea won't work. It is not a criticism of you as a person, but it seems as though you have taken it personally. Believe me you are not the first person who had an idea concerning using the inner city ME as some potential high frequency CTA service. The reality is that it is not conducive to such service. The ME was constructed as a suburban service when the city was quite small. It just so happened the city kept annexing communities to the south and those stations became inner city stations. Keep in mind that, before 1969, there was no L service south of 69th Street (I'm including the old Normal Branch of the NSM) and travel time between South Shore and downtown on the IC and the Jeffery Express were similar. I remember when the Kensington/115th St local ran 4 car trains during rush hour in the peak direction. Now those two lines are a shell of themselves, and again I offer that if not for political grandstanding, Metra would abandon those two services. They might be inclined to keep the Blue Island rush hour expresses and maybe, maybe a shuttle train during the nonpeak hours Mon thru Fri. only, but the demand is not there whether you slap CTA logos on the train or not.

You said:

I M P O R T A N T -- PLEASE READ >> CTA WOULD HAVE N O T H I N G TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL OPERATION OF THE GRAY LINE TRAINS.

Since the Gray Line would be Operated with the same Class I Equipment, by the same Class I Crews, on the same Class I Physical Plant, under the same FRA Jurisdiction -- Where would there be a conflict??

Please tell me if this did, or didn't address your concerns trainman.

CTA already has nothing to do with the actual operation of ME service. You are proposing the Metra beef up service that very few people use already. In order for this to be a CTA service where CTA would set the fares, CTA would have to pay Metra (as a Class I railroad) to run. CTA has no interest in doing that when the express buses work just fine. And if you really want to hear cries of racism, cut that express service and Rahm, Claypool, will be run out of the country.

I applaud you for attempting to figure out ways to get CTA rail service to the far south side and southeast quadrant of the city, but this particular idea is not feasible. I want to see how the new development sprouting up on the old USS site progresses. While I don't see any changes in the ME SC schedule, that would be possibly the best opportunity for Metra to grow ridership simply by promotion. Metra hasn't even promoted its underused Kensington local service as a one seat ride alternative to the shuttle buses in some of the areas most affected by the Dan Ryan Red Line shutdown. Neither is CTA touting any trip planning on its Red Line reroute site that employs using ME.

Metra made the entire South Chicago branch a zone B and still couldn't attract new riders (when the zone B fare was still competitive with CTA). One would think that Metra wouldn't lose much by zoning all stations from 111th north as a Zone B, as oppposed to zone C, but they probably feel (and I agree) that they wouldn't attract many new riders (South Chicago branch as precedent), and if anything, the current riders would expect that change to become permanent .

Mr. Payne, again I applaud your passion. At least you are trying to get those in power to fill a void. We are not trying to dishearten you. There may yet be a strategy that works. It is just that this Gray Line one doesn't work. That may be a hard pill to swallow because you have put years of time and effort and money into it. All I am saying is to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch. Have a great day.

[Busjack]

...

Metra made the entire South Chicago branch a zone B and still couldn't attract new riders (when the zone B fare was still competitive with CTA). One would think that Metra wouldn't lose much by zoning all stations from 111th north as a Zone B, as oppposed to zone C, but they probably feel (and I agree) that they wouldn't attract many new riders (South Chicago branch as precedent), and if anything, the current riders would expect that change to become permanent .....

Given that the demographics along the ME main line isn't much different from Riverdale south as from Kensington north, I'm sure (based on the stink when Metra tried to make the fare chart line on a constant slope, even though zone B would get a much higher fare hike percentage wise) would be that if Zone B were extended to Kensington, those south of there would start screaming that the fare jumped from $3.00 to $4.75 by crossing the border into Zone D. That would be notwithstanding that Riverdale is about the same distance as Glenview, Des Plaines, or Hinsdale. And those ME riders won't get toilets in their cars for another year or two.

[Mike Payne]

Metra train stops and income levels

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20130511/ISSUE01/130509751/money-train-me
tra-stops-and-income-levels

The geographic disparity in Chicago's wealth can be seen by tracking household
income in the ZIP codes of Metra train stations. The Union Pacific North and
Milwaukee District North lines pass through some of the wealthiest ZIP codes,
while the Metra Electric and Rock Island lines go through some of the poorest.

CRAIN'S MAPS:
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/Assets/legacy/downloads/20130513charticle.htm

Metra station median income percentile ranking
Based on average income of the station's ZIP code. Mouse over stations to see
specific data.

Note: Map does not included Ravinia Park stop.

Source: U.S. Census Bureau American Community Survey (2011, five-year)

Click here to view a static version of this map in a popup window:
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/Assets/legacy/downloads/20130513charticle.htm

[Busjack]

Metra train stops and income levels

,,,,

So, what's the point? Kenilworth and Winnetka were rich way back when the C&NW was young.

Also, Kenilworth fought the North Shore Line. Maybe proves that local L type service (i.e. an electric railway, that connected to the city via the Loop L) was fairly irrelevant to rich people living there.

On the other hand, the IC brought poor Blacks from Mississippi to the south side.

Maybe the only difference between the lines is that the IC city stations are still there, while even the Rock (except for Beverly) stations are not. The only BNSF station that could be considered west side is at Halsted; only UP-W station is Kedzie.

In fact, your previous thesis that the L brings development is contradicted by the last two examples, and UP-W stations were closed because the Lake St. L provided local service, and the Pink Line essentially provides parallel L service to the BNSF.

[Mike Payne]

So, what's the point? Kenilworth and Winnetka were rich way back when the C&NW was young.

Also, Kenilworth fought the North Shore Line. Maybe proves that local L type service (i.e. an electric railway, that connected to the city via the Loop L) was fairly irrelevant to rich people living there.

On the other hand, the IC brought poor Blacks from Mississippi to the south side.

Maybe the only difference between the lines is that the IC city stations are still there, while even the Rock (except for Beverly) stations are not. The only BNSF station that could be considered west side is at Halsted; only UP-W station is Kedzie

"the IC city stations are still there" > That is one key point of the proposal -- to use already existing facilities.

In fact, your previous thesis that the L brings development is contradicted by the last two examples, and UP-W stations were closed because the Lake St. L provided local service, and the Pink Line essentially provides parallel L service to the BNSF.

And in exactly the same way the Gray Line would provide the parallel in-city local services, to complement the Metra University Park and NICTD suburban trains (so that they don't have to make local stops).

Am I interpreting things correctly in thinking that the prevailing attitude is to eliminate most or all of the in-city MED stops, making the Suburban services much more efficient -- and leaving the Southeast Quadrant of the City with NO type of Rail Rapid-Transit whatsoever.

I guess that unlike all the other parts of the City -- Bus service only is adequate for all of those residents.

[Busjack]

...

Am I interpreting things correctly in thinking that the prevailing attitude is to eliminate most or all of the in-city MED stops, making the Suburban services much more efficient -- and leaving the Southeast Quadrant of the City with NO type of Rail Rapid-Transit whatsoever.

I guess that unlike all the other parts of the City -- Bus service only is adequate for all of those residents.

If you had read Andre about 10 years ago, yeah, that's about it.

The only area that has bus service comparable to South Shore is the north lakefront. The J14 runs every 2 or 3 minutes, and I don't hear a lot of people complaining about it on this board. Conversely, I don't see you crusading for the return of the X3, X4, X9 or X49 bus, for instance, even though they went through impoverished neighborhoods and people complained about the racial aspect of those cuts here. Not that I believe the 9 BRT plan, either.

And if the southeast quadrant really needed rail service, ridership (especially on the 200/500/600 series trains) would not have plummeted. Don't tell me that was a result of Metra taking down the turnstiles.

The only thing the two Poverty Train* graphs prove is that the south and west sides are impoverished, whether near the IC/ME or the Green, Red, Blue, and Pink lines. Also on the iC/ME around Riverdale and Harvey and the BNSF in Cicero and Berwyn. Are you going to crusade for the poor people of Berwyyyyn** who have to pay $3.00 to ride with people from Naperville, just like people on the South Chicago branch have to pay?

But to sum it up, you said that city hall sent a consultant to kill it, so it is dead.

*Laura Nyro.

**Svengoolie.

[mkohut]

Also a lot cheaper for the return of the X3, X4, X9 or X49 bus.Then a Gray Line where there is no true cost idea for and rebuilding the stations.

[Busjack]

Also a lot cheaper for the return of the X3, X4, X9 or X49 bus.Then a Gray Line where there is no true cost idea for and rebuilding the stations.

Not to mention his fare separation idea of having to build new stations at 11th, 58th, and Kensington, and undoubtedly a new approach at Millennium (Randolph St.). And that's after the 57th station was rebuilt.

At least some people in Hyde Park believe in the ME (formerly IC) over the CTA, especially if the alternative was going to the Green or Red Lines, but they buy Metra tickets.

But, as I said innumerable times, he doesn't have cost estimates for that, nor for the additional operating costs, nor any consumer research or economic development studies.

[BusHunter]

If you had read Andre about 10 years ago, yeah, that's about it.

The only area that has bus service comparable to South Shore is the north lakefront. The J14 runs every 2 or 3 minutes, and I don't hear a lot of people complaining about it on this board. Conversely, I don't see you crusading for the return of the X3, X4, X9 or X49 bus, for instance, even though they went through impoverished neighborhoods and people complained about the racial aspect of those cuts here. Not that I believe the 9 BRT plan, either.

And if the southeast quadrant really needed rail service, ridership (especially on the 200/500/600 series trains) would not have plummeted. Don't tell me that was a result of Metra taking down the turnstiles.

The only thing the two Poverty Train* graphs prove is that the south and west sides are impoverished, whether near the IC/ME or the Green, Red, Blue, and Pink lines. Also on the iC/ME around Riverdale and Harvey and the BNSF in Cicero and Berwyn. Are you going to crusade for the poor people of Berwyyyyn** who have to pay $3.00 to ride with people from Naperville, just like people on the South Chicago branch have to pay?

But to sum it up, you said that city hall sent a consultant to kill it, so it is dead.

*Laura Nyro.

**Svengoolie.

Maybe Sven can sing us a song about how the Gray line is dead.

[Busjack]

Maybe Sven can sing us a song about how the Gray line is dead.

Laura Nyro certainly is. However, we don't know if "there'll be one child born and a world to carry on."

[jajuan]

Also a lot cheaper for the return of the X3, X4, X9 or X49 bus.Then a Gray Line where there is no true cost idea for and rebuilding the stations.

And that gets to the crux of why I have my doubts about Ashland BRT. Not only would it be cheaper to just bring back some or all the four expresses mentioned given what it will cost to bring about the BRT route on Ashland, the way they want to implent it with the center positioned bus lanes only serves to foul up the remaining traffic and make the local Ashland bus worthless to use. Sure there would be some change in driving habits but where do we think all that traffic will go? Halsted is a two lane street so that's a no go. Same for Damen. And that doesn't even count that Damen is cut off between Pershing and 47th since the decision was made to tear down the bridge that went through there instead of rebuilding it. So that pretty much only leaves Western the only other four lane street that's close, which itself also sees heavier traffic in rush periods already just as Ashland does. As trainman pointed out, if folks want to get to points along Ashland earlier then do what people normally do anyway and leave earlier. The X9 may have had to contend with traffic like the local bus but having the ability to bypass stops every half mile or so still helped get people along Ashland quicker without having to muck up surrounding traffic to do so.

[mkohut]

I agree.The city think they can start building it 2015.

It will never make it pass the enviroment study.

[jajuan]

And while the J14 may not be full BRT as reaffirmed by the updated definition given by the feds, the local bus on Jeffery has the benefit of being able to use those bus lanes with how that route is now implemented. And that brings us back to the flaw in this Circle Line proposal. Why would and/or should the CTA pay Metra to operate this line due to both agencies operating two different classes of railroad service when the money would be better served improving routes that are already in place first?

[Busjack]

...And that brings us back to the flaw in this Circle Line proposal. Why would and/or should the CTA pay Metra to operate this line due to both agencies operating two different classes of railroad service when the money would be better served improving routes that are already in place first?

At least we are back to the topic (here Gray Line).

I've been saying for about 8 years that if Mike's theory was that CTA would purchase services from Metra, CTA would have no incentive to do so, unless it shut down the then Jeffery downtown services, and forced riders to transfer at 71st, which would necessitate building a transfer station so that passengers could get to the train platform without crossing a street and a railway.

The no incentive argument is stronger today, in that by instituting the J14, CTA has show that its intent is otherwise, and there doesn't seem to be anyone complaining about the J14, except maybe Mike.

Also, the no incentive point is reinforced by that CTA might have had an incentive to facilitate use of the ME during the Dan Ryan construction, but the so called "joint CTA-Metra 10 ride/5 day pass" with no discount on the Metra 10 ride ticket showed that neither CTA nor Metra took that seriously.

[Busjack]

Related to a point I made a week ago, you might want to read this from the proponent, posted by him in the CTA Tattler.

[jajuan]

Related to a point I made a week ago, you might want to read this from the proponent, posted by him in the CTA Tattler.

I really wasn't seeing the reason for him just unloading on you like that even if as you admitted the question posed was a loaded one. And the way it was loaded was rooted in what we agreed about on here of how he's apparently done what others with a cause have made the mistake of doing in allowing their own egos outgrow their original cause.

[Busjack]

Emanuel, searching for political support on the south side, suddenly is interested in the Gray Line (Tribune). Article has a better description of the infrastructure and costs issues. Apparently the ME is no BNSF.

[artthouwill]

3 hours ago, Busjack said:

Emanuel, searching for political support on the south side, suddenly is interested in the Gray Line (Tribune). Article has a better description of the infrastructure and costs issues. Apparently the ME is no BNSF.

I can't believe that this idea won' t die.  Where does this magic money come from?   As I have noted before the current nonexistent ridership in the inner city justifies cutting,  not expanding,  ME service in the city.   Added frequency doesn't improve ridership,  otherwise the SSM would still be going to Howard. 

The only way this  thing could ever possibly come to be is if Metra cedes the entire ME to CTA.  Then CTA has to work the NICTD into its operations.   It's a mess not worth considering. 

[Busjack]

52 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I can't believe that this idea won' t die.

As I said many times before in the past couple of months, Rahm feels a political need to appeal to/buy off the south side. It wasn't that Kirk Dillard suddenly decided that Mike Payne was right.

52 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Where does this magic money come from?

The RTA has some discretionary money for stuff like the 618 test. Not enough  for this, though.

  Added frequency doesn't improve ridership,  otherwise the SSM would still be going to Howard. 

Still indicative of the population loss on the south side over the past 25 years.

 

On the cede the ME, there always was the issue of the main line to University Park.

 

[BusHunter]

Someone needs to tell Rahm that if he is looking for votes just finish or even start the red line extension. Do what you promised in your campaign before. I don't know, with the 95th red line station looking so big and the 98th yard trackwork that goes along with it, why would you do all that if there is still going to be a red line extension? 

This gray line is probably just more proposals and nothing else.

[Busjack]

50 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Someone needs to tell Rahm that if he is looking for votes just finish or even start the red line extension. Do what you promised in your campaign before. I don't know, with the 95th red line station looking so big and the 98th yard trackwork that goes along with it, why would you do all that if there is still going to be a red line extension? 

....

Problem is that George Lucas (nor anyone else) has plopped down the $2-4 billion needed to do it.

[strictures]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Someone needs to tell Rahm that if he is looking for votes just finish or even start the red line extension. Do what you promised in your campaign before. I don't know, with the 95th red line station looking so big and the 98th yard trackwork that goes along with it, why would you do all that if there is still going to be a red line extension? 

This gray line is probably just more proposals and nothing else.

The problem with the so-called Gray Line is that it was proposed in the late 1960s & was supposed to use two tracks of the IC Mainline south to Kensington, when the Dan Ryan Line opened. The IC didn't need 10 tracks there anymore. They were going to eliminate & demolish the SSML & route it over to the IC, I think using the St. Charles Airline. Why it never happened then is a mystery, although money is the likely answer.

And when Richie Daley paid of the South Side reverends that supported him by rebuilding the SSML & turning it into the Green Line, that killed any possibility of ever using the abandoned parts of the IC Mainline.

But Payne refuse to believe that this was proposed & insists that he created the idea. One of these days when I have time to burn, I'll go to the main library & hunt through the microfilms of the late 1960s Sun-Times, which I remember had this on their front page, complete with a large map.

[Busjack]

58 minutes ago, strictures said:

The problem with the so-called Gray Line is that it was proposed in the late 1960s & was supposed to use two tracks of the IC Mainline south to Kensington, when the Dan Ryan Line opened.

There were all sorts of things (such as a Monroe connector with branches to Streeterville and McCormick Place via IC right of way) that were bandied around without doing anything. You might be able to find something in the microfiche, but no way that it was ever serious.

58 minutes ago, strictures said:

I'll go to the main library & hunt through the microfilms of the late 1960s Sun-Times, which I remember had this on their front page, complete with a large map.

The S-T definitely had a map of the Circle Line on its front page. Approx. 15 years later, that's also fantasy.

[juelzkellz]

On June 28, 2016 at 1:52 PM, BusHunter said:

Someone needs to tell Rahm that if he is looking for votes just finish or even start the red line extension. Do what you promised in your campaign before. I don't know, with the 95th red line station looking so big and the 98th yard trackwork that goes along with it, why would you do all that if there is still going to be a red line extension? 

This gray line is probably just more proposals and nothing else.

As far as the Red Line extension is concerned, I think it is a pointless waste of money. Spending billions of dollars on an extension that will shave 5 maybe 10 minutes of a commute from that area seems crazy to me. The only way I can see it being a benefit is if the CTA were to implement express service a/la the Evanston Express. Other than that, the commute from that area really doesn't shrink that much compared to the amount of money being spent. An idea that might work would be to make send the 34 and 108 downtown via the Dan Ryan expressway express from 95th. That way, less money is being spent and the quality of service greatly increases.   

As far as the Grey Line proposal, it's one of those ideas that sounds great on paper, but the logistics involved make it a non starter. Besides, the existing transit options in the area are good enough for the majority of the riders and when you really think about it, the time savings are really not worth the logistical headache .