MountainMan Posted May 24, 2015 Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 Please give me an update on the success of the New Flyer All-Electric Bus experiment. In the mountains, my transit system only has regular diesel Gilligs. I want to know more about whether the Hybrid Diesel-Electric and All-Electric buses are performing well and what comparisons can be made in such aspects as lifecycle costs, reliability, competitiveness with standard diesels. Federal grants were dropped for the acquisitions, so I wonder whether there are still federal programs supporting the weaning off diesel. Furthermore, my transit system has daily down time due to particulate filter problems. I would like to hear how the CTA responds to particulate filter power failures in buses, timely regeneration, filter replacement, and whether the hybrid diesel-electric buses suffer as much of a problem with clogged particulate filters as the regular diesel buses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted May 24, 2015 Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 (edited) Please give me an update on the success of the New Flyer All-Electric Bus experiment. In the mountains, my transit system only has regular diesel Gilligs. I want to know more about whether the Hybrid Diesel-Electric and All-Electric buses are performing well and what comparisons can be made in such aspects as lifecycle costs, reliability, competitiveness with standard diesels. Federal grants were dropped for the acquisitions, so I wonder whether there are still federal programs supporting the weaning off diesel. Furthermore, my transit system has daily down time due to particulate filter problems. I would like to hear how the CTA responds to particulate filter power failures in buses, timely regeneration, filter replacement, and whether the hybrid diesel-electric buses suffer as much of a problem with clogged particulate filters as the regular diesel buses. CTA hasn't said how the experiment is working, and all they do is run them rush hour (about 4 hours in the a.m. and 4 in the p.m.).CTA has not said how they charge the buses, and stuff about the NF and Proterra buses indicate that they way to charge them without them sitting in the garage is to have gantry chargers en route.One of the reasons that the NABIs were retired, but not the decisive reason, is that the particulate filters clogged up. The New Flyers either had or got them, but there has not been publicity about any problems with them.The Allison parallel hybrid systems seem to be working o.k., but there is nothing indicated whether they save fuel. The ISE series hybrids were retired after about 6 years and there are reports from New York and San Francisco that the BAE series system also has problems.With diesel fuel prices down about $1.20/gallon from last year, it becomes questionable whether the $175,000/bus to make them hybrid is now worth it.Pace has now ordered CNG buses, which probably won't be delivered until the end of 2015 or early 2016, but that seems the way to go, especially since natural gas prices have really cratered. Edited May 24, 2015 by Busjack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainMan Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 Thank you, Busjack, for the update or lack thereof. The Gilligs go down daily due to clogged particulate filters. Remember, the Hybrid Diesel-Electric is NOT $175,000 per bus if the federal grant covers 80% of the cost differential in order to help develop the technology. Therefore, the Hybrid Diesel-Electric may be able to be life-cycle cost-effective at $2.00 per gallon diesel, which current prices still exceed despite the drop in oil prices. The CNG offers no solution to carbon-based fuel pollution, although the price point may indicate an economic incentive to change platforms. A CNG bus recently exploded on a highway out East, BOLTZ, I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted May 24, 2015 Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 Thank you, Busjack, for the update or lack thereof. The Gilligs go down daily due to clogged particulate filters. Remember, the Hybrid Diesel-Electric is NOT $175,000 per bus if the federal grant covers 80% of the cost differential in order to help develop the technology. Therefore, the Hybrid Diesel-Electric may be able to be life-cycle cost-effective at $2.00 per gallon diesel, which current prices still exceed despite the drop in oil prices. The CNG offers no solution to carbon-based fuel pollution, although the price point may indicate an economic incentive to change platforms. A CNG bus recently exploded on a highway out East, BOLTZ, I believe.I don't know what federal grant would cover the extra cost of a hybrid; maybe you can cite the source. CTA leased 150 of the buses (hence no federal money) and used a TIGER formula grant for 58 (since that grant was not restricted, theoretically could have purchased 75 diesel buses). It did get a federal earmark for 33 hybrids, but used state money to buy 67 diesels in the same group (4300 series).CTA got $2.5 million in federal grants for the 2 electric buses, but that isn't going to go too far, compared to the $488K per similar diesel bus.Accidents will happen anywhere; LA has been running a CNG fleet for about 20 years and I am not aware of any report of mass conflagrations. CTA just burned a new diesel artic (4333) about a year ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted May 24, 2015 Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 I don't know what federal grant would cover the extra cost of a hybrid; maybe you can cite the source. CTA leased 150 of the buses (hence no federal money) and used a TIGER formula grant for 58 (since that grant was not restricted, theoretically could have purchased 75 diesel buses). It did get a federal earmark for 33 hybrids, but used state money to buy 67 diesels in the same group (4300 series).CTA got $2.5 million in federal grants for the 2 electric buses, but that isn't going to go too far, compared to the $488K per similar diesel bus.Accidents will happen anywhere; LA has been running a CNG fleet for about 20 years and I am not aware of any report of mass conflagrations. CTA just burned a new diesel artic (4333) about a year ago.Well CTA itself didn't burn the bus Busjack. It burned due to an odd freak accident while in service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainMan Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 The BOLT bus burned in Massachusetts. I am not certain of the propulsion fuel. http://gothamist.com/2015/05/11/video_bolt_bus_explodes_on_massachu.php http://grumpyelder.com/2015/05/mechanical-problem-caused-boltbus-fire-officials-say/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainMan Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 I don't know what federal grant would cover the extra cost of a hybrid; maybe you can cite the source.The Diesel Emissions Reduction Act (DERA) seems to be the legislation most relevant to the purchase of transit buses propelled by alternative means. I wish that the appropriations were much, much higher. The present allocation seems to be capable of saving a drop of diesel fuel.Diesel Emissions Reduction Act (DERA)Since 2008, EPA has funded nearly 60,000 pieces of clean diesel technology through the National Clean Diesel Campaign. These technologies include emissions and idle control devices, aerodynamic equipment, engine and vehicle replacements, and alternative fuel options. The projects meet critical local air quality needs by deploying both proven and emerging technologies much earlier than would otherwise occur.Project funding for the National Clean Diesel Campaign comes from the Diesel Emissions Reduction Act. As stipulated in the Act, 70 percent of DERA funds are to be used for national competitive grants, with the remaining 30 percent allocated to the states.Diesel Emissions Reduction Act Grants (DERA 2012-2016)In January 2010, President Obama signed legislation, H.R. 5809 (PDF) (6pp, 125K, January 2010, About PDF), reauthorizing DERA grants to eligible entities for projects that reduce emissions from existing diesel engines. The bill, passed by the Senate on December 16 and the House on December 21, authorizes up to $100 million annually for FY2012 through FY2016 and allows for new types of funding mechanisms, including rebates. $29.9 million was appropriated by Congress for FY2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 Well CTA itself didn't burn the bus Busjack. It burned due to an odd freak accident while in service. Diction aside, my point was only that flammable accidents happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 I don't know what federal grant would cover the extra cost of a hybrid; maybe you can cite the source.The Diesel Emissions Reduction Act (DERA) seems to be the legislation most relevant to the purchase of transit buses propelled by alternative means. I wish that the appropriations were much, much higher. The present allocation seems to be capable of saving a drop of diesel fuel.Diesel Emissions Reduction Act (DERA)Since 2008, EPA has funded nearly 60,000 pieces of clean diesel technology through the National Clean Diesel Campaign. These technologies include emissions and idle control devices, aerodynamic equipment, engine and vehicle replacements, and alternative fuel options. The projects meet critical local air quality needs by deploying both proven and emerging technologies much earlier than would otherwise occur.Project funding for the National Clean Diesel Campaign comes from the Diesel Emissions Reduction Act. As stipulated in the Act, 70 percent of DERA funds are to be used for national competitive grants, with the remaining 30 percent allocated to the states.Diesel Emissions Reduction Act Grants (DERA 2012-2016)In January 2010, President Obama signed legislation, H.R. 5809 (PDF) (6pp, 125K, January 2010, About PDF), reauthorizing DERA grants to eligible entities for projects that reduce emissions from existing diesel engines. The bill, passed by the Senate on December 16 and the House on December 21, authorizes up to $100 million annually for FY2012 through FY2016 and allows for new types of funding mechanisms, including rebates. $29.9 million was appropriated by Congress for FY2012. If you had read what you posted, it is Clean Diesel, i.e. upgrading existing diesel engines to be 2013 EPA compliant, or maybe biodiesel engines (and CTA has been running biodiesel since about 2001). Nothing said there about hybrids,Like I said, CTA got an earmark, and there is or was TIGGER for a small amount of money, but there doesn't seem to be any legislation that the Highway Trust Fund is going to pay transit authorities the extra $175,000 cost of a hybrid over a straight diesel. The CTA Green Grants page shows the hit and miss results of various grant applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithmanCTA Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Wonder what the New Flyer All-Electric Performance Buses will look like and can they go from 0 to 60 MPH? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Wonder what the New Flyer All-Electric Performance Buses will look like and can they go from 0 to 60 MPH?Why don't you look on the home page of chicagobus.org for the pictures?Given the type of service they are in, I doubt that 0 to 60 is relevant. Only thing close to relevant is if they deadhead on i-290 and it isn't clogged with traffic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithmanCTA Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 Thank you, sir! I will check it out(it might also be on New Flyer's website, too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.