New Flyer DE60LF rejects

[Coastercameron]

By the way, it was Minneapolis Metro Tranist that bought High Floor New Flyer D60's in 2006 YEARS after they were supposedly discontinued permenantly.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

I suspect that it is possible that the LF being discontinued did not effect existing contracts. Only new contracts once the LF was discontinued were not available in LF. And existing contracts could continue as LF until the contract ended. SEPTA on the other hand. They may have decided to get LFRs for the 2010 order. Since they had no choice but to get the ETBs as E40LFRs. They didnt mind getting the 2010 DE40s in LFR instead of LF. As far as Bmores next Articulated buses. If they are not suppose to be the CTA units then hopefully they will be LFR but until January or February we will not know for sure until they arrive.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

The 12 DE60LFs sent to Baltimore are now operating in revenue service. Basically the only CTA features these units have are the shade of tint on the windows. The skirt design on the sides. The rear door. As well as the floor. Everything else was modified to MTA colors. And the headsigns are either white or multi colored but Im not sure which. I do know the passenger seats were changed out to MTAs standard seats. As well as the grab rails were changed out to all yellow. And as far as the driver seat. It is exactly the same as what the rest of the New Flyers were built with. Black Recaro Ergo Ms with headrests and orange shoulder strap seatbelts. I still have yet to ride one but Ive seen them in service.

[Busjack]

The 12 DE60LFs sent to Baltimore are now operating in revenue service. Basically the only CTA features these units have are the shade of tint on the windows....

Basically, though, is there any evidence that these were the 12 shells NF was trying to peddle after they didn't get the CTA contract (or whatever)? Someone had previously indicated that they were not.

[Nabinut]

Basically, though, is there any evidence that these were the 12 shells NF was trying to peddle after they didn't get the CTA contract (or whatever)? Someone had previously indicated that they were not.

The series do share similaries with the current CTA fleet. I've had a chance to ride and photograph those buses and there is evidence that they are part of the 14 shells left over from the Ottawa fire sale. Below are photos of few in service. See if you agree.

[jajuan]

The series do share similaries with the current CTA fleet. I've had a chance to ride and photograph those buses and there is evidence that they are part of the 14 shells left over from the Ottawa fire sale. Below are photos of few in service. See if you agree.

Though they look just like CTA's DE60LFs except for the local livery and a few tweaks here and there, it wouldn't definitively mean they are from the questionable (questionable in that CTA didn't give the go ahead to proceed on production) CTA deal that went bust. There are TAs across the country that have D40LFs that are identical on the outside to CTA's current 1000s except for livery colors that have no connection to CTA's 1050 bus purchase.

[Nabinut]

Though they look just like CTA's DE60LFs except for the local livery and a few tweaks here and there, it wouldn't definitively mean they are from the questionable (questionable in that CTA didn't give the go ahead to proceed on production) CTA deal that went bust. There are TAs across the country that have D40LFs that are identical on the outside to CTA's current 1000s except for livery colors that have no connection to CTA's 1050 bus purchase.

I would agree with your point with the exception that unlike the 1000s and the multitude of D40LF across the country, this model has been discontinued yet have a build date of Nov. 2010. To be honest, it could easily be that the end caps were changed out like on the Ottawa order but on these buses, the specs don't come close to matching the 2008 order, which ironically were DE60LFRs. The rear end shot was added to prove a point that if nothing else, the model for the current CTA fleet has influenced this order.

[jajuan]

I would agree with your point with the exception that unlike the 1000s and the multitude of D40LF across the country, this model has been discontinued yet have a build date of Nov. 2010. To be honest, it could easily be that the end caps were changed out like on the Ottawa order but on these buses, the specs don't come close to matching the 2008 order, which ironically were DE60LFRs. The rear end shot was added to prove a point that if nothing else, the model for the current CTA fleet has influenced this order.

But was it not you who explicitly and quite angrily said the Baltimore DE60LF buses were not completed from shells built from the CTA deal? Which one is it? Either they are or they aren't. Given that ALL the LF models were discontinued in favor of LFRs and the point was made that it would affect new contracts after the LFs were discontinued as opposed to contracts that were current at that time, I guessing the evidence asked for that these were connected with the dead CTA deal was sought in the form of a link to a contractual agreement dated after the old LFs were discontinued or some other form other than cosmetic similarities which is the actual point I was getting at.

[Nabinut]

But was it not you who explicitly and quite angrily said the Baltimore DE60LF buses were not completed from shells built from the CTA deal? Which one is it? Either they are or they aren't. Given that ALL the LF models were discontinued in favor of LFRs and the point was made that it would affect new contracts after the LFs were discontinued as opposed to contracts that were current at that time, I guessing the evidence asked for that these were connected with the dead CTA deal was sought in the form of a link to a contractual agreement dated after the old LFs were discontinued or some other form other than cosmetic similarities which is the actual point I was getting at.

First of all, the person whom I addressed was convinced they were CTA buses already built and just diverted to MTA and that is where I disagreed with him about. My point about the shells or to be exact the end caps are different. They were already bought before everything went south and New Flyer had to change their line over to build the LFRs & Xcelsiors. They made the deal with Ottawa and that's why they have LFRs. These were front and rear end caps left over. New York City is getting 185 New Flyer C40LFs with the front and rear end caps from the defunct order to once and for all rid themselves of the styling.

However, this is all hearsay from another person who has an inside contact with New York City Transit and this was the explanation given to them so I don't have paper proof other than what has been delivered to support my statement.

[Busjack]

...I guessing the evidence asked for that these were connected with the dead CTA deal was sought in the form of a link to a contractual agreement dated after the old LFs were discontinued or some other form other than cosmetic similarities which is the actual point I was getting at.

First of all, the person whom I addressed was convinced they were CTA buses already built and just diverted to MTA and that is where I disagreed with him about. My point about the shells or to be exact the end caps are different. ...

As far as that goes, people who run all those Internet delivery and VIN lists claim to be able to trace this stuff based on body numbers and the like, which were undoubtedly assigned when the shell was constructed.

However, in retrospect, all of this is irrelevant, except to the extent:

• As Nabinut indicated, the first poster was saying "rejects" and now felt compelled to post that the interiors are certainly Baltimore, even if the shells are not.
• Anyone has a financial interest in New Flyer, or was damaged by the fraudulent representation that they had a CTA contract when they apparently did not. Unlike NABI, I don't see New Flyer suing the CTA for breach of contract, but doing a whole lot of other things to try to recoup from this production scheduling error.

Meanwhile NF announced that Valley Metro of Phoenix was getting hybrid artics, so we'll see what they get.

[jajuan]

Thanks for the clear up. And I get that the first poster was referring to the buses as 'rejects' and the statement of the interiors made to fit a previous statement. That's why I brought up the cosmetic issue not being enough to say definitely where or how these buses got their start. Since I know I don't have a financial interest in New Flyer, whether they were actually built from shells meant for what appears to be a nonexistent CTA deal isn't uber important to me. Just trying to get a clear picture of the issue. On a side note in that regard, didn't mean to seem all confrontational with you, Nabinut. I just was picking up on what seemed to be a contradiction with your prior post. At any rate, the whole fiasco should be lesson learned to bus manufacturers at large about announcing they have a solid deal with a TA on a sizable bus order without or before that being the case and that TA doesn't yet have solid funding from its governmental funding sources to pay the cost of a potential deal.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

As far as that goes, people who run all those Internet delivery and VIN lists claim to be able to trace this stuff based on body numbers and the like, which were undoubtedly assigned when the shell was constructed.

However, in retrospect, all of this is irrelevant, except to the extent:

• As Nabinut indicated, the first poster was saying "rejects" and now felt compelled to post that the interiors are certainly Baltimore, even if the shells are not.
• Anyone has a financial interest in New Flyer, or was damaged by the fraudulent representation that they had a CTA contract when they apparently did not. Unlike NABI, I don't see New Flyer suing the CTA for breach of contract, but doing a whole lot of other things to try to recoup from this production scheduling error.

Meanwhile NF announced that Valley Metro of Phoenix was getting hybrid artics, so we'll see what they get.

The interior may be Baltimore MTA interior but from what I read the interior was modified before these units were sent to Baltimore. There are some CTA similarities. Such as the rear door. The floor. The darkness of the tint. As well as the tail lights. But interchangable features got changed out to MTA features before being sent to Baltimore. MTA does modify rejects as much as possible before they receive the rejects. Like 9861-9865 were rejected from another TA and the only difference between them and the rest of the 9800s is the floor. 9801-9860 came with black floors as 9861-9865 came with gray slip proof floors.

[Busjack]

The interior may be Baltimore MTA interior but from what I read the interior was modified before these units were sent to Baltimore. There are some CTA similarities.

Again, you should read my first bullet. They were shells if in fact they were the 12 mentioned by NF at all. or as NF put it incomplete buses. While there are some inconsistencies in that press release, it concludes with " Management expects that all 14 buses will be completed and delivered in 2010."

Apparently you can't figure that out. If you think they scrapped a whole bunch of CTA seats or whatever, post your evidence.