Busjack Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Maybe there are other people here that would be interested in what goes on behind the scenes a little more than just how pretty the new bus looks on the street, or what bus number is on what route. It gets a little deeper than that and if you dont comprehend the Mechanical aspect of the bus and have doubts then maybe you should hold your doubts and suspisions to yourself also. Given such things as two members, one who claims to be employed by CTA as a bus driver and another who claims to have worked for it for 26 years that all NFs are junk, since that is a continuing procurement, I suggest that there is a remedy, and this forum is not it. The CTA has an Office of Inspector General, which can be accessed at the indicated website. You can even report anonymously. Maybe the Inspector General can do something, maybe not. But I can give you 100% assurance that the people on this forum can't. Just like Bobo has his remedy with the FTA, you have your remedy with the IG. Or you could also file a complaint with the FTA, since they are paying for the 2,000 or so buses that NF constructs in a year for transit operators in the United States (as well as the 1200 or so NABI does). After all, buses constructed without working brakes are a national hazard. Maybe the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration would like to hear your allegations, too. And if mechanics aren't fixing the brakes after the bus drivers report them, maybe the Inspector General would want to hear about that. Of course, if you are just blowing smoke in this forum.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buslover88 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Given such things as two members, one who claims to be employed by CTA as a bus driver and another who claims to have worked for it for 26 years that all NFs are junk, since that is a continuing procurement, I suggest that there is a remedy, and this forum is not it. The CTA has an Office of Inspector General, which can be accessed at the indicated website. You can even report anonymously. Maybe the Inspector General can do something, maybe not. But I can give you 100% assurance that the people on this forum can't. Just like Bobo has his remedy with the FTA, you have your remedy with the IG. Or you could also file a complaint with the FTA, since they are paying for the 2,000 or so buses that NF constructs in a year for transit operators in the United States (as well as the 1200 or so NABI does). After all, buses constructed without working brakes are a national hazard. Maybe the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration would like to hear your allegations, too. And if mechanics aren't fixing the brakes after the bus drivers report them, maybe the Inspector General would want to hear about that. Of course, if you are just blowing smoke in this forum.... Good post, busjack. I agree 100%. If people want to complain so much about the New Flyers, they should report it to the right people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8H5307A Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Good post, busjack. I agree 100%. If people want to complain so much about the New Flyers, they should report it to the right people. Time will tell... Let's see how well the New Flyers hold up 19 years from now, considering I been noticing more and more corrosion/rust on the 1000's and they only have 100,000 miles on them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buslover88 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Time will tell... Let's see how well the New Flyers hold up 19 years from now, considering I been noticing more and more corrosion/rust on the 1000's and they only have 100,000 miles on them! You're right, time will tell. However, I don't think the New Flyers will be here in 19 years, but knowing CTA, anything's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Time will tell... Let's see how well the New Flyers hold up 19 years from now, considering I been noticing more and more corrosion/rust on the 1000's and they only have 100,000 miles on them!Since they have a service life (FTA) of 12, sort of irrelevant at this point. However, if you think the rust to date exceeds what they should have at about 1/5th of their projected mileage (especially considering this and last winter), maybe you should inform maintenance or the IG about that. New Flyer did warrant them for 12 years. The comments to proposer one indicate that the buses are to take the kind of corrosion caused by the more intensive salts used in Chicago. If the 19 refers to the life of the remaining 5300s, they sure weren't rust free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buslover88 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Since they have a service life (FTA) of 12, sort of irrelevant at this point. Correct. That was the point I was making in my last post on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksone44 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 Given such things as two members, one who claims to be employed by CTA as a bus driver and another who claims to have worked for it for 26 years that all NFs are junk, since that is a continuing procurement, I suggest that there is a remedy, and this forum is not it. The CTA has an Office of Inspector General, which can be accessed at the indicated website. You can even report anonymously. Maybe the Inspector General can do something, maybe not. But I can give you 100% assurance that the people on this forum can't. Just like Bobo has his remedy with the FTA, you have your remedy with the IG. Or you could also file a complaint with the FTA, since they are paying for the 2,000 or so buses that NF constructs in a year for transit operators in the United States (as well as the 1200 or so NABI does). After all, buses constructed without working brakes are a national hazard. Maybe the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration would like to hear your allegations, too. And if mechanics aren't fixing the brakes after the bus drivers report them, maybe the Inspector General would want to hear about that. Of course, if you are just blowing smoke in this forum.... Very good post...:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8H5307A Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 If the 19 refers to the life of the remaining 5300s, they sure weren't rust free. Yes, but I certainly don't recall seeing rust on the Flxibles when they were at that comparable point of there service life 17 years ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8H5307A Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I too have expericened the lovely wonders of the New Flyers braking system. Basically this is what I figured out what is going on: The New Flyers have ABS (Anti-lock brake system). When you first go to apply the brakes, the transmission retarder kicks in and that pretty much slows you down to 5 miles per hour. You can apply more braking by pushing the brake pedal down further and have a combination of retarder and air brakes, but the braking forces becomes so much that you are at the point of throwing a standing passenger, so the generally you let the retarder do most of the work and then the air brakes make the final stop. When the retarder is doing the braking and lets say you drive over a big pot hole or ice or those metal plates the city uses to cover holes/construction area, etc, the ABS kicks in and cuts out the retarder completely and basically you are free rolling. Now the only way to stop is with your air brakes and when you take into consideration the reaction time + the lag time + the time it takes to stop the bus, you already passed your target position where you intended to stop, not to mention you may be coming up to a stopped vehicle and under the normal conditions you are able to stop fine, but when the latter happens you could end up in the back of the vehicle or not hit the vehicle and have one of the nice free riding frail senior citizens laying on the floor of your bus! I have no clue of how many accidents have been caused by this, and maybe its just failure to inform the operators how this system works. It's not like CTA issues us an operators manual for each series of buses. I just know the first time I experienced this my heart skipped a beat. Now that I know this is prone to happen without any notice, I just increase my following distance and brake early and be extra careful. It seems the more modern technology for safety they add to the buses the worse they get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainman8119 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 It seems the more modern technology for safety they add to the buses the worse they get! It's not just buses and it's not just safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busfan Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Given such things as two members, one who claims to be employed by CTA as a bus driver and another who claims to have worked for it for 26 years that all NFs are junk, since that is a continuing procurement, I suggest that there is a remedy, and this forum is not it. The CTA has an Office of Inspector General, which can be accessed at the indicated website. You can even report anonymously. Maybe the Inspector General can do something, maybe not. But I can give you 100% assurance that the people on this forum can't. Just like Bobo has his remedy with the FTA, you have your remedy with the IG. Or you could also file a complaint with the FTA, since they are paying for the 2,000 or so buses that NF constructs in a year for transit operators in the United States (as well as the 1200 or so NABI does). After all, buses constructed without working brakes are a national hazard. Maybe the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration would like to hear your allegations, too. And if mechanics aren't fixing the brakes after the bus drivers report them, maybe the Inspector General would want to hear about that. Of course, if you are just blowing smoke in this forum.... Your showing your stupidity again. The Inspector General is a part of CTA. Why would CTA investigate CTA ? And brakes are done at the shops, not in the garages. Like I said before, If you dont like whats being posted then move on. Dont be childish and start another post to get attention and "slam" people. Thats very childish. Nobody posted and said that people shoudlnt be riding them cause they are unsafe. They do have their problems. They are being fixed, but they do have their problems. If you dont understand how something works, dont slam it. Grow up and move on now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Your showing your stupidity again. The Inspector General is a part of CTA. Why would CTA investigate CTA ? And brakes are done at the shops, not in the garages. Like I said before, If you dont like whats being posted then move on. Dont be childish and start another post to get attention and "slam" people. Thats very childish. Nobody posted and said that people shoudlnt be riding them cause they are unsafe. They do have their problems. They are being fixed, but they do have their problems. If you dont understand how something works, dont slam it. Grow up and move on now. 1. The FTA and FHTSA are not part of CTA. You are telling me that you know more than the federal government too? 2. If they are getting fixed, what's your point? If you think New Flyer is ripping off the CTA, that's exactly what the Inspector General wants to know. 3. As far as "growing up," your defense of the track inspectors shows what kind of CTA employee you were before you retired. 4. You have little room to insult people when you claim to have replyed [sic] to all questions when you haven't. As with other people who have done that, that shows you can't take it when you post inconsistent, and probably false material, just because this is a "forum." If you had real information about New Flyer, you would take it to someone who could do something about it. Instead you engage in this kind of post, indicating that you want to defame rather than fix the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 I too have expericened the lovely wonders of the New Flyers braking system. Basically this is what I figured out what is going on: The New Flyers have ABS (Anti-lock brake system). When you first go to apply the brakes, the transmission retarder kicks in and that pretty much slows you down to 5 miles per hour. You can apply more braking by pushing the brake pedal down further and have a combination of retarder and air brakes, but the braking forces becomes so much that you are at the point of throwing a standing passenger, so the generally you let the retarder do most of the work and then the air brakes make the final stop. When the retarder is doing the braking and lets say you drive over a big pot hole or ice or those metal plates the city uses to cover holes/construction area, etc, the ABS kicks in and cuts out the retarder completely and basically you are free rolling. Now the only way to stop is with your air brakes and when you take into consideration the reaction time + the lag time + the time it takes to stop the bus, you already passed your target position where you intended to stop, not to mention you may be coming up to a stopped vehicle and under the normal conditions you are able to stop fine, but when the latter happens you could end up in the back of the vehicle or not hit the vehicle and have one of the nice free riding frail senior citizens laying on the floor of your bus! I have no clue of how many accidents have been caused by this, and maybe its just failure to inform the operators how this system works. It's not like CTA issues us an operators manual for each series of buses. I just know the first time I experienced this my heart skipped a beat. Now that I know this is prone to happen without any notice, I just increase my following distance and brake early and be extra careful. It seems the more modern technology for safety they add to the buses the worse they get! At least here is an explanation that makes sense. I know that some buses had trasmission retarders starting in the late 80s, but maybe the ones that CTA bought didn't (you didn't hear the downshift as they were stopping, as you did on other cities' buses). Considering that the hybrids rely on retarding to recharge the batteries, you wonder what adjustments in driving habits that requires.* ______ *Car and Driver has commented on this in connection with tests of hybrid cars, saying, for instance, with regard to the Nissan Altima: "Brake-pedal force has annoying variations, perhaps due to regen considerations beyond the driver's knowing." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buslover88 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Your showing your stupidity again. The Inspector General is a part of CTA. Why would CTA investigate CTA ? And brakes are done at the shops, not in the garages. Like I said before, If you dont like whats being posted then move on. Dont be childish and start another post to get attention and "slam" people. Thats very childish. Nobody posted and said that people shoudlnt be riding them cause they are unsafe. They do have their problems. They are being fixed, but they do have their problems. If you dont understand how something works, dont slam it. Grow up and move on now. Why would you even SAY something like this on a bus forum? This is just plain outrageous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santran Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 A couple of responses here.. The inspector general does investigate CTA, but it is mostly on a financial scale. The hybrids do not rely on any type of braking to recharge the batteries, they do use this to help but it is done by the engine while operating on fuel. And I read alot of the post and some people always have something NEGATIVE to say, ALWAYS. I just think this board would be more fun to read if people just learn that this is NOT official and is just for us FANS. Lets have fun and enjoy. And for those who do not think NF is not a good brand, well they are in business today and make more buses in North America than anyone else. So to me that says alot. Now if the CTA would take care of its equipment like it should, all the buses would run great and look that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 A brief response: The inspector general does investigate CTA, but it is mostly on a financial scale. Surely, if it were a bad procurement, it would be a financial issue. Although it appears that you don't believe it was a bad procurement. The hybrids do not rely on any type of braking to recharge the batteries, they do use this to help but it is done by the engine while operating on fuel. T8H would agree that the issue isn't whether a hybrid relies on regenerative braking, but whether it affects the braking response (as apparently transmission retard also does). Maybe I misused the word "rely," but the issue is the same. We had the prior discussion on whether they had to be plugged in, which didn't seem to go far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busfan Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 1. The FTA and FHTSA are not part of CTA. You are telling me that you know more than the federal government too? The Inspector General is not part of the FTA. 2. If they are getting fixed, what's your point? If you think New Flyer is ripping off the CTA, that's exactly what the Inspector General wants to know. My point is that you kept insisting that CTA would never alow buses with bad shocks or anything to constantly be delivered. The have a caontratc with new flyer. Just like they had a contract with Nabi. They knew the frames were cracking on the Nabi's but they couldnt just "stop" the delivery of busses. 3. As far as "growing up," your defense of the track inspectors shows what kind of CTA employee you were before you retired. Like I said before I will say again .... The FTA included in their report that part of the problem was that CTA had cut manpower and CTA had a minimun requirement of track mileage that was required to be inspected per day and that was more than could be done to do a "thorough" inspection. Years ago when the garages had 180 busses you had 5 people inspecting 6-7 busses a day. Now the average garage has 280 busses and they still have 5 people inspecting busses. The managers want 10 busses a day to "keep the numbers in line". What do you think happened to the quality of work due to the fact there is still only 8 hours in a day and now they require you to do much more work ?? It's a long complicated story on how CTA runs it's buisness. The FTA only gets involved in situations if there is an accident involving the public. You have no clue how much power CTA has. They follow no rules. EXAMPLE......... Back in 1991 they passed the Random Drug Testing Policy. The government passed a law stating " Any CTA employee working in a safety sensitive position must be randomly drug tested. We did. CTA said that we work on buses that involve the publics safety so the Unions lost the arguement about being unconstitutional and we were drug tested. How come the New Flyer vendors, and Nabi vendors dont have to be drug tested ? They work on the same bus that the public rides. CTA allows that to go around the FTA policy dont they ? EXAMPLE ..... The federal goverment required that all busses be inspected at 4000 miles. If the bus was not inspected by the time it had 4500 miles the bus was to be "held in" and not put on the street until it was inspected. Last summer a new manager decided that they were gonna inspect the busses at 5000 miles because they kept cutting jobs while they added busses and they couldnt keep up with the "numbers". Is the government gonna stop it ? NO, not until something happens. Im not gonna explain every detail. All Im saying is the busses have problems. The Flx's, old 4000's, Artic's all did to. Im not gonna post on here no more due to the fact that my 26 years at CTA obviously didnt mean anything. Someone who has over 3000 posts knows more than me. Goodbye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buslover88 Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 And I read alot of the post and some people always have something NEGATIVE to say, ALWAYS. I just think this board would be more fun to read if people just learn that this is NOT official and is just for us FANS. Lets have fun and enjoy. And for those who do not think NF is not a good brand, well they are in business today and make more buses in North America than anyone else. So to me that says alot. Now if the CTA would take care of its equipment like it should, all the buses would run great and look that as well. I agree with you completey. I wish those folks would stop being so negative here. We should have fun and enjoy ourselves here. I also agree with your statement on New Flyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT0851 Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 I too have expericened the lovely wonders of the New Flyers braking system. Basically this is what I figured out what is going on: The New Flyers have ABS (Anti-lock brake system). When you first go to apply the brakes, the transmission retarder kicks in and that pretty much slows you down to 5 miles per hour. You can apply more braking by pushing the brake pedal down further and have a combination of retarder and air brakes, but the braking forces becomes so much that you are at the point of throwing a standing passenger, so the generally you let the retarder do most of the work and then the air brakes make the final stop. When the retarder is doing the braking and lets say you drive over a big pot hole or ice or those metal plates the city uses to cover holes/construction area, etc, the ABS kicks in and cuts out the retarder completely and basically you are free rolling. Now the only way to stop is with your air brakes and when you take into consideration the reaction time + the lag time + the time it takes to stop the bus, you already passed your target position where you intended to stop, not to mention you may be coming up to a stopped vehicle and under the normal conditions you are able to stop fine, but when the latter happens you could end up in the back of the vehicle or not hit the vehicle and have one of the nice free riding frail senior citizens laying on the floor of your bus! I have no clue of how many accidents have been caused by this, and maybe its just failure to inform the operators how this system works. It's not like CTA issues us an operators manual for each series of buses. I just know the first time I experienced this my heart skipped a beat. Now that I know this is prone to happen without any notice, I just increase my following distance and brake early and be extra careful. It seems the more modern technology for safety they add to the buses the worse they get! It's not just NFI vehicles that do this, all modern buses equipped with transmission retarders do this. It's actually a quite useful feature when driving in slippery conditions as retarders can be nightmares when there's little traction. Like you said though it can be quite alarming if you don't know about it. However with experience, you get to know when the ABS is going to kick in and shut off the retarder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted March 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Anyway, the Inspector General's report is up. Aside from patting himself on the back, the one possibly interesting point is that a "fare media vendor" ripped off the CTA and was arrested. Now, in the old days (about 15-20 years ago) station agents were accused of pocketing vast amounts of change. Going to the Cubic system was supposed to stop that. So, now the fare card vendors are stealing. If they go to the bank card, I wonder how someone is going to abuse that technology. 3 contract debarments were mentioned, so if NF was ripping off the CTA as alleged by a poster here, that could have been investigated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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