New Flyer DE60LF rejects

[Nabi60SFW9620]

I was reading that CTA had to reject some Articulated buses built by New Flyer due to funding purposes. How many did CTA have to reject? One reason Im asking is because I was reading some rumor that 12 of the rejected CTA New Flyer DE60LFs may be going to Baltimore. But that hasnt been confirmed at this point. But it would be nice to see rejected CTA DE60LFs in Baltimore. Even though they are the old style end caps. As far as the drivers area. I believe CTA uses the same driver seats as Baltimore. The Recaro Ergo M. Except CTAs have no headrests on them. And Im not sure if they have shoulder strap seatbelts. And Baltimores have the headrest and orange shoulder strap seatbelt. So if CTAs have shoulder strap seatbelts all Baltimore MTA would have to do is add the headrest to the driver seat. And maybe change out the seatbelts to orange. But I wouldnt be surprised if the seatbelts did not get retrofitted with the orange seatbelts.

[Busjack]

I was reading that CTA had to reject some Articulated buses built by New Flyer due to funding purposes. How many did CTA have to reject? One reason Im asking is because I was reading some rumor that 12 of the rejected CTA New Flyer DE60LFs may be going to Baltimore. But that hasnt been confirmed at this point. But it would be nice to see rejected CTA DE60LFs in Baltimore. ....

CTA didn't reject any NF buses. New Flyer announced an apparently nonexistent contract, and then said it couldn't be finalized because there wasn't any state money. If you search this forum for things like Ottawa (which apparently also picked up some of the production capacity), that will tell the story.

Anyway, the base amount of the nonaward was 140, as indicated in the 140 buses deferred thread.

Also, to clarify a frequent misconception, NF said that it was about to start building the buses, and had taken that number of EUs out of its 2009 production schedule. So, no matter what you think, and especially as typified by the Ottawa announcement, there are no physical buses meeting CTA specs. remaining unsold. As I said, Ottawa picked up the production capacity.

[Busjack]

I guess based on the latest News Release, the previous post wasn't entirely true. It states near the bottom:

Finally, the Company is currently negotiating the sale of the 14 incomplete articulated buses (28 EUs) that were built in 2009 for a US customer prior to their order deferral. A firm purchase order has been received from one customer for two of the buses and a second customer has publically announced their intention to purchase the other 12 buses, pending completion of negotiations with New Flyer and upon receiving approval from its board. Management expects that all 14 buses will be completed and delivered in 2010.

So, I guess there may have been something to the Baltimore rumor, even though, in the News Release announcing the deferral, New Flyer said that it was about to start manufacturing the buses the next week.

I guess New Flyer hasn't been totally honest to the press about the status of the CTA order.

[Nabinut]

That does explain why it was only 12 buses. The confusion comes because they are DE60LFs and assumed to be made up of CTA Specs, not a fresh build.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

I myself always thought Ralign Wells decided to only purchase 12 of these units. And when the time comes to retire all 42 New Flyer Articulated buses it wouldnt really surprise me if all 42 were replaced with 42 new Articulated buses in 1 order. Like 9501-9510 and 9601-9620. 9501-9510 were the 95 NABI 436 and 9601-9620 were the 97 NABI 436. And all 30 got replaced with 8001-8030 which are New Flyer DE60LFRs. So I wouldnt be surprised in 2023 if all 42 New Flyer Articulated buses were replaced with 1 order of 42 Articulated buses.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

http://www.chicagobus.org/photo/1002-2

I noticed from this pic what looks like a strap infront of the driver on 1002. Does this show that CTA has shoulder strap seatbelts on buses? If so then the only thing Baltimore MTA has to do with the driver seat is install headrests on them. And if MTA decides its necessary replace the seatbelts with orange shoulder straps. I dont think MD requires newer buses to have orange shoulder straps but I believe they at least require headrests and shoulder strap seatbelts these days.

[jacksone44]

http://www.chicagobus.org/photo/1002-2

I noticed from this pic what looks like a strap infront of the driver on 1002. Does this show that CTA has shoulder strap seatbelts on buses? If so then the only thing Baltimore MTA has to do with the driver seat is install headrests on them. And if MTA decides its necessary replace the seatbelts with orange shoulder straps. I dont think MD requires newer buses to have orange shoulder straps but I believe they at least require headrests and shoulder strap seatbelts these days.

Yes. CTA New Flyers have shoulder straps. Ive seen them when drivers wear them as they should.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

So some CTA drivers dont buckle up? Im not surprised. Every major TA has that issue. Which is why Baltimore MTA uses orange seatbelts on majority of their fleet. And seat belt alarms on the Neoplans as well as 08 and newer New Flyers. So since CTA has shoulder straps chances are all the Baltimore MTA has to do with the driver seat is install headrests and they can either get New Flyer to do it or they can have their maintenance workers install them prior to sending the buses out in service. But I dont 100% think the seatbelts will get changed out to orange. I think MTA will make do with the dark shoulder straps CTA uses. Like they did with 04043 when they changed out the driver seat due to mechanical malfunction.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

Another question reguarding what should have been CTAs future Articulated buses. Are they DE60LFs or DE60LFRs?

[Busjack]

Another question reguarding what should have been CTAs future Articulated buses. Are they DE60LFs or DE60LFRs?

Since manufacturing barely begun, it probably isn't relevant. However, the specs had drawings based on the flat fronts. Also, none of the transit agencies around here pay for style.

So, basically the questions ought to be asked to New Flyer regarding what contract they thought they were getting, and how far they jumped the gun on it, when, clearly, one is not to proceed until getting a Notice to Proceed. We can't read their minds.

BTW: Let's also remember that while the CTA published the specs on its website, it never acknowledged the contract until someone posted the deferral here, that story went to the CTA Tattler, and then the Tribune picked it up without attribution, and then asked the CTA spokeswoman about it and she confirmed the story that the order was deferred for lack of state funds. So, assuming that someone within CTA knows what it didn't order, that person is not talking.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

There was word that 2 DE60LFRs were seen in Rockville MD owned by the Maryland Transit Administration. One source said that they are the tics CTA specified tics. But so far we will not find out for sure until they arrive to MTAs property and someone can get pics of the first unit delivered when it arrives. Im hoping they are LFRs so they can look like the 08000s on the outside. But if they happen to be LFs then thats how it will have to go.

Since New Flyer discontinued the LF in late 2009 it wouldnt surprise me if CTA had no choice but to get their next batch of tics in LFR. Since SEPTA got their 2010 New Flyers in LFR it wouldnt surprise me if existing contracts got effected by the cease of the LF. MARTA got their 06s in LF and their 2010 CNGs are C40LFRs. MBTA of Boston got their 2010 tics as DE60LFRs. And they were among those to continue getting LFs after the introduction of the LFR. I cant wait until the new tics arrive to Bmore.

[Busjack]

There was word that 2 DE60LFRs were seen in Rockville MD owned by the Maryland Transit Administration. One source said that they are the tics CTA specified tics. But so far we will not find out for sure until they arrive to MTAs property and someone can get pics of the first unit delivered when it arrives. Im hoping they are LFRs so they can look like the 08000s on the outside. But if they happen to be LFs then thats how it will have to go.

Since New Flyer discontinued the LF in late 2009 it wouldnt surprise me if CTA had no choice but to get their next batch of tics in LFR. Since SEPTA got their 2010 New Flyers in LFR it wouldnt surprise me if existing contracts got effected by the cease of the LF. MARTA got their 06s in LF and their 2010 CNGs are C40LFRs. MBTA of Boston got their 2010 tics as DE60LFRs. And they were among those to continue getting LFs after the introduction of the LFR. I cant wait until the new tics arrive to Bmore.

The issue that seems hard to comprehend in Baltimore is that there was no CTA contract, at least if we believe the indications from CTA. So your speculating about what would have been delivered under such a contract is just speculation, as there was no "existing contract" that could have been affected by any subsequent decision by New Flyer other than to peddle what little on which it had started construction without a Notice to Proceed, we presume.

So, yes, you'll have to wait to see whether New Flyer made any agreement with MTA and what they eventually ship.

[Nabinut]

The issue that seems hard to comprehend in Baltimore is that there was no CTA contract, at least if we believe the indications from CTA. So your speculating about what would have been delivered under such a contract is just speculation, as there was no "existing contract" that could have been affected by any subsequent decision by New Flyer other than to peddle what little on which it had started construction without a Notice to Proceed, we presume.

So, yes, you'll have to wait to see whether New Flyer made any agreement with MTA and what they eventually ship.

All us in Baltimore (who the OP doesn't represent the majority of) know is that MTA ordered 12 of 14 buses left from the fire sale at New Flyer. The confusion of the "dropped" CTA order is more the design which is simliar to the current crop of CTA artics. There was even photo proof given of0 one of them with a Baltimore-style bike rack. Other than that, the buses are just standard artics which have been built but are waiting to be delivered.

[rmadisonwi]

What some folks also don't understand is that New Flyer did not discontinue the "old style" D40LF in 2009. It's possible they stopped taking orders for that bus (and even then, if someone shows up with enough cash, they'd easily change their mind), but they were still delivering D40LFs this summer (Detroit got a bunch).

I don't know about the inner workings of New Flyer, but my guess is that they just stopped marketing the LF design, but if someone really wanted one, they'd build it. Heck, I recall a transit system sometime within the past 10 years (can't remember who it was) who bought D60s (the high-floor bus) a few years after New Flyer built what everyone assumed to be the last one.

[Busjack]

What some folks also don't understand is that New Flyer did not discontinue the "old style" D40LF in 2009. It's possible they stopped taking orders for that bus (and even then, if someone shows up with enough cash, they'd easily change their mind), but they were still delivering D40LFs this summer (Detroit got a bunch).

I don't know about the inner workings of New Flyer, but my guess is that they just stopped marketing the LF design, but if someone really wanted one, they'd build it. Heck, I recall a transit system sometime within the past 10 years (can't remember who it was) who bought D60s (the high-floor bus) a few years after New Flyer built what everyone assumed to be the last one.

There was the stink that NY MTA wanted high floor 60s, but NF wouldn't build them. However, that was on Wikipedia, and I tend not to believe anything there anymore, but that was also noted here.

However, I agree that if CTA were actually going to buy 900 buses (or even the base order of 140), New Flyer would have built what CTA wanted, considering how desperate NF appears in hindsight.

[jacksone44]

What some folks also don't understand is that New Flyer did not discontinue the "old style" D40LF in 2009. It's possible they stopped taking orders for that bus (and even then, if someone shows up with enough cash, they'd easily change their mind), but they were still delivering D40LFs this summer (Detroit got a bunch).

I don't know about the inner workings of New Flyer, but my guess is that they just stopped marketing the LF design, but if someone really wanted one, they'd build it. Heck, I recall a transit system sometime within the past 10 years (can't remember who it was) who bought D60s (the high-floor bus) a few years after New Flyer built what everyone assumed to be the last one.

The orders were already placed before New Flyer decided to cease marketing of the "LF" model. New Flyer has a contractual obligation to build the buses in that case. I can't imagine a transit agency (or anyone) going to New Flyer to beg for the production of a bus with an outdated style, given the current model cost just about the same....

[Busjack]

The orders were already placed before New Flyer decided to cease marketing of the "LF" model. New Flyer has a contractual obligation to build the buses in that case.....

Except, of course, while New Flyer first said they had "an order," CTA never confirmed a contract, nor posted it on its Contract Awards database. Also, there was the NY MTA example given earlier, where NF refused to build more D60HFs, supposedly mid contract, and I'm not sure how it even could have gotten out of options. Of course, if these were real contracts, there would be litigation, like with NABI, unless NF was intending to perform them at a loss (sort of like the Compobus).

The things to which I agree are (1) NF said that it had the "order" or whatever on Dec. 11, 2008, which was before they supposedly quit selling the flat face design, and (2) changing endcaps or whatever else it takes to make a LFR is probably much easier than saying that they will still make high floor buses.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

What some folks also don't understand is that New Flyer did not discontinue the "old style" D40LF in 2009. It's possible they stopped taking orders for that bus (and even then, if someone shows up with enough cash, they'd easily change their mind), but they were still delivering D40LFs this summer (Detroit got a bunch).

I don't know about the inner workings of New Flyer, but my guess is that they just stopped marketing the LF design, but if someone really wanted one, they'd build it. Heck, I recall a transit system sometime within the past 10 years (can't remember who it was) who bought D60s (the high-floor bus) a few years after New Flyer built what everyone assumed to be the last one.

So Joe Casey may have decided to purchase DE40LFRs for SEPTAs 2010 order. I hear SEPTAs 2011 order is suppose to be Xcelsiors. Since New Flyers website no longer shows the LF as an available model at the least more likely it only effects new contracts that came in after the LF was discontinued. And existing contracts could get LFs. But other then Detroits latest D40LFs that arrived I dont know of any 2010 LF built in the US. So I dont know the exact situation with the LF. I know its no longer available for new orders. It may or may not be available for existing contracts. But either way the reason for SEPTA switching to LFRs wouldnt surprise me as if either they had no choice or Joe Casey got tired of purchasing LFs and decided SEPTA needed a design change.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

Except, of course, while New Flyer first said they had "an order," CTA never confirmed a contract, nor posted it on its Contract Awards database. Also, there was the NY MTA example given earlier, where NF refused to build more D60HFs, supposedly mid contract, and I'm not sure how it even could have gotten out of options. Of course, if these were real contracts, there would be litigation, like with NABI, unless NF was intending to perform them at a loss (sort of like the Compobus).

The things to which I agree are (1) NF said that it had the "order" or whatever on Dec. 11, 2008, which was before they supposedly quit selling the flat face design, and (2) changing endcaps or whatever else it takes to make a LFR is probably much easier than saying that they will still make high floor buses.

I think New Flyer should have discontinued the LF when the LFR came into production. Orion discontinued the old style VII when the VII next Generation came out. NABI discontinued the old style when the restyled came out. But kept the name the same for their models. Novabus. All they redesigned was the headlights. And that may be an option for purchases. And Gillig. Their standard low floor is still the old style and no restyle came out. However their BRT model is popular for non BRT use. I cant wait to see the pics of the first CTA New Flyer Articulated that arrives to Bmore. Even if they are LFs chances are the passenger seats, rear door, driver seats, as well as the exterior mirrors may have been modified to MTA specs. I think MTA does modify rejected units as best as they can but there are some ways of noticing the reject. Like 9861-9865 were rejected from another TA and the only difference with them then 9801-9860 is the floor. 9801-9860 have black floors with grooved aisles and 9861-9865 have gray slip proof floors.

[Busjack]

... And Gillig. Their standard low floor is still the old style and no restyle came out. However their BRT model is popular for non BRT use.

At least RGRTA indicated in their 2010-2011 plan (at page 37) that while it had just received 50 Gillig BRTs:

Finally, more than 43 buses in the RGRTA fleet will be replaced in the coming year. While customer and employee comments have been very positive related to the introduction of the more modern Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) appearance of the RTS buses unveiled in 2009-10, in order to balance the CIP for the coming six years, RGRTA is not planning to continue that amenity.

So, apparently as far as Gillig is concerned, there is a difference in price.

Of course, tne New Flyer and NABI BRTs are of different design than their restyled buses.

[Nabi60SFW9620]

Turns out the 2 DE60LFRs spotted in Rockville were among MTAs current DE60LFRs. The CTA units are DE60LFs. And will not arrive to Baltimore until the first of 2011. Some features may be modified on these units prior to delivery. Such as the seat inserts. Maybe the rear door pieces. And the driver seat will more likely be modified. Headrest installed. Maybe seatbelt change outs unless MTA can deal with dark shoulder strap seatbelts. And I wouldnt be surprised either way with the seatbelts. I dont know if blue slip proof floors can be replaced with black slip proof but either way the floor situation wouldnt surprise me. And even with modifications made Im sure there are going to be some noticable ways that these units were suppose to be CTA units.

[Nabinut]

Can you please stop bringing this topic up; It's a waste of bandwidth. The 12 artics being sent to Baltimore are NOT CTA units.

*And to the moderator, please delete this topic. It has no more usefulness.

[i8itall4u]

...as Jack Benny would say; "Well!"

[Nabinut]

Well here is where the "other" 2 DE60LFs went:

http://www.metro-magazine.com/News/Story/2010/10/Detroit-agency-purchases-new-hybrid-rapid-transit-buses.aspx

[Busjack]

Well here is where the "other" 2 DE60LFs went:

http://www.metro-mag...nsit-buses.aspx

Except that the article said that they piggybacked on a SORTA order. However, that might have been just to pick up the two options.

SORTA's site refers to hybrid buses (a picture of a DE40LF) and articulated buses, but not a combined reference. Some hybrids were purchased with ARRA money.

The picture in the Metro Magazine is definitely an old-style DE60LF, but whether we can make further conclusions may be open to debate.