9000-series

[Busjack]

On 5/8/2023 at 3:00 PM, artthouwill said:

So does this mean that CTA won't exercise any options for the 7000s and use the 9000 series to replace the 3200s?  Or will the 9000s expand the fleet for the Red Line extension and CTA won't exercise the latter options of the 7000s ( but exercise options 1 and 2)?

On 5/8/2023 at 4:18 PM, Busjack said:

Maybe related, maybe not. Mass Transit Magazine says CRRC MA is having all sorts of problems with its MBTA and SEPTA contracts. Similar report in Mass Live....

No news yet, but when going through the articles on CRRC, the Trains article on the LA Metro CRRC cars said:

Quote

The cars have arrived about a year behind schedule because of COVID-19-related delays, according to Metro records; the Daily News reports the delivery issues led Metro to cancel an option for an additional 218 cars.

(emphasis added)

I just went down to PointsBet, DraftKings, or whatever, to put down my money that CTA did the same thing, even though its cars are not being assembled in Massachusetts.?

[Nitro]

On 9/21/2023 at 12:28 PM, Busjack said:

No news yet, but when going through the articles on CRRC, the Trains article on the LA Metro CRRC cars said:

(emphasis added)

I just went down to PointsBet, DraftKings, or whatever, to put down my money that CTA did the same thing, even though its cars are not being assembled in Massachusetts.?

What happened to the 340 7000s Series cars that were supposed to be delivered in production? Did it get cancelled?

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

What happened to the 340 7000s Series cars that were supposed to be delivered in production? Did it get cancelled?

I think the base order is already signed and committed to but due to issues with this company these 9000 series might end up getting signed instead of the options for additional 7000s. CTA isnt known to be transparent about stuff like this and flat out say "we made a poor decision" lol

[Nitro]

27 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

I think the base order is already signed and committed to but due to issues with this company these 9000 series might end up getting signed instead of the options for additional 7000s. CTA isnt known to be transparent about stuff like this and flat out say "we made a poor decision" lol

Well at least they know what they’re doing.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

Well at least they know what they’re doing.

If by "they" you mean CTA management, it would be the first time since at least 2004. Look at chicago-l.org's discussion about putting out a specification for 3500s that didn't attract bids because it was obsolete. quality problems with Bombardier, the exposed secret arrangement with Bombardier to rebuild 3200s as compatible with 5000s (IMO, despite the unethical nature of the proposal, which was typical of Emanuel, that would have made more sense than spending $0.9 million each to rehab the 3200s as is), to cozying up to CRRC (including Emanuel almost spilling the beans that CRRC was getting the contract before the CT Board voted on it).

By now, you can tell that I'm not interested in "random thoughts." If you are going to make an assertion, support it. Tell us how you know they know what they are doing.

[Bus1883]

6 hours ago, Nitro said:

What happened to the 340 7000s Series cars that were supposed to be delivered in production? Did it get cancelled?

Base order of 400 cars is being accepted. They might do at least 100 cars of the first option or just the base order and move onto 9000s instead. 

[Busjack]

19 minutes ago, Bus1883 said:

Base order of 400 cars is being accepted. They might do at least 100 cars of the first option or just the base order and move onto 9000s instead. 

There is no point in exercising any option, since the federal grant is for 300 replacement cars.

[Nitro]

On 9/24/2023 at 1:46 PM, Busjack said:

If by "they" you mean CTA management, it would be the first time since at least 2004. Look at chicago-l.org's discussion about putting out a specification for 3500s that didn't attract bids because it was obsolete. quality problems with Bombardier, the exposed secret arrangement with Bombardier to rebuild 3200s as compatible with 5000s (IMO, despite the unethical nature of the proposal, which was typical of Emanuel, that would have made more sense than spending $0.9 million each to rehab the 3200s as is), to cozying up to CRRC (including Emanuel almost spilling the beans that CRRC was getting the contract before the CT Board voted on it).

By now, you can tell that I'm not interested in "random thoughts." If you are going to make an assertion, support it. Tell us how you know they know what they are doing.

The CRRC has credibility issues and in the middle of a trade war buying from them should have never been considered an option. Kawasaki is cozying up to them and it won't help either. We could easily manufacture subway cars in the United States for a quarter to half of the price if the federal government allowed that but no we rely on some foreign companies with shady business practices which the public has the right to know about.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

We could easily manufacture subway cars in the United States for a quarter to half of the price if the federal government allowed that

What are you talking about? is 136th St. and Torrence Avenue a foreign country? Is Hornell NY, where your NY MTA gets Alstom cars a foreign country?

In fact:

 

• The Buy America Act requires that 70% of the components and final assembly be in the U.S.
• The State Owned Enterprise Law contained in the National Defense Authorization Act basically bars CRRC from getting any new customers.

Only thing that can be said is that rail car manufacturers are not owned by U.S. companies.

I PMed you before, but you still post stuff about which you are totally ignorant. Why do it?

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

What are you talking about? is 136th St. and Torrence Avenue a foreign country? Is Hornell NY, where your NY MTA gets Alstom cars a foreign country?

In fact:

 

• The Buy America Act requires that 70% of the components and final assembly be in the U.S.
• The State Owned Enterprise Law contained in the National Defense Authorization Act basically bars CRRC from getting any new customers.

Only thing that can be said is that rail car manufacturers are not owned by U.S. companies.

I PMed you before, but you still post stuff about which you are totally ignorant. Why do it?

What's interesting is the 2nd link you posted claims CTA only has 1140 cars for 2017? I thought we were at 1490? ??

[Busjack]

34 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

What's interesting is the 2nd link you posted claims CTA only has 1140 cars for 2017? I thought we were at 1490? ??

Shows that you can't rely on a tertiary source on the internet. Only thing that attempted to prove is that the "four agencies [grandfathered as already having a contract with CRRC] operated a collective 19.0 percent of all of the heavy rail, light rail, and commuter rail mass transit cars operated in the U.S."

I should have just linked to the primary source, quoted by Eno, which is 49 USC 5323:

Quote

(j) Buy America.-

(1) In general.-The Secretary may obligate an amount that may be appropriated to carry out this chapter for a project only if the steel, iron, and manufactured goods used in the project are produced in the United States.

(2) Waiver.-The Secretary may waive paragraph (1) of this subsection if the Secretary finds that-

(A) applying paragraph (1) would be inconsistent with the public interest;

(B) the steel, iron, and goods produced in the United States are not produced in a sufficient and reasonably available amount or are not of a satisfactory quality;

(C) when procuring rolling stock (including train control, communication, traction power equipment, and rolling stock prototypes) under this chapter-

(i) the cost of components and subcomponents produced in the United States-

(I) for fiscal years 2016 and 2017, is more than 60 percent of the cost of all components of the rolling stock;

(II) for fiscal years 2018 and 2019, is more than 65 percent of the cost of all components of the rolling stock; and

(III) for fiscal year 2020 and each fiscal year thereafter, is more than 70 percent of the cost of all components of the rolling stock; and

 

(ii) final assembly of the rolling stock has occurred in the United States; or

 

(D) including domestic material will increase the cost of the overall project by more than 25 percent.

Quote

(u) Limitation on Certain Rolling Stock Procurements.-

(1) In general.-Except as provided in paragraph (5), financial assistance made available under this chapter shall not be used in awarding a contract or subcontract to an entity on or after the date of enactment of this subsection for the procurement of rolling stock for use in public transportation if the manufacturer of the rolling stock-

(A) is incorporated in or has manufacturing facilities in the United States; and

(B) is owned or controlled by, is a subsidiary of, or is otherwise related legally or financially to a corporation based in a country that-

(i) is identified as a nonmarket economy country (as defined in section 771(18) of the Tariff Act of 1930 (19 U.S.C. 1677(18))) as of the date of enactment of this subsection;

(ii) was identified by the United States Trade Representative in the most recent report required by section 182 of the Trade Act of 1974 (19 U.S.C. 2242) as a foreign country included on the priority watch list defined in subsection (g)(3) of that section; and

(iii) is subject to monitoring by the Trade Representative under section 306 of the Trade Act of 1974 (19 U.S.C. 2416).

 

(2) Exception.-For purposes of paragraph (1), the term "otherwise related legally or financially" does not include-

(A) a minority relationship or investment; or

(B) relationship with or investment in a subsidiary, joint venture, or other entity based in a country described in paragraph (1)(B) that does not export rolling stock or components of rolling stock for use in the United States.

 

(3) International agreements.-This subsection shall be applied in a manner consistent with the obligations of the United States under international agreements.

(4) Certification for rail rolling stock.-

(A) In general.-Except as provided in paragraph (5), as a condition of financial assistance made available in a fiscal year under section 5337, a recipient that operates rail fixed guideway service shall certify in that fiscal year that the recipient will not award any contract or subcontract for the procurement of rail rolling stock for use in public transportation with a rail rolling stock manufacturer described in paragraph (1).

(B) Separate certification.-The certification required under this paragraph shall be in addition to any certification the Secretary establishes to ensure compliance with the requirements of paragraph (1).

 

(5) Special rules.-

(A) Parties to executed contracts.-This subsection, including the certification requirement under paragraph (4), shall not apply to the award of any contract or subcontract made by a public transportation agency with a rail rolling stock manufacturer described in paragraph (1) if the manufacturer and the public transportation agency have executed a contract for rail rolling stock before the date of enactment of this subsection.

(B) Rolling stock.-Except as provided in subparagraph (C) and for a contract or subcontract that is not described in subparagraph (A), this subsection, including the certification requirement under paragraph (4), shall not apply to the award of a contract or subcontract made by a public transportation agency with any rolling stock manufacturer for the 2-year period beginning on or after the date of enactment of this subsection.

(C) Exception.-Subparagraph (B) shall not apply to the award of a contract or subcontract made by the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority.

 

Anyway, I bet @Nitro hasn't read either version.

[Nitro]

3 hours ago, Busjack said:

Shows that you can't rely on a tertiary source on the internet. Only thing that attempted to prove is that the "four agencies [grandfathered as already having a contract with CRRC] operated a collective 19.0 percent of all of the heavy rail, light rail, and commuter rail mass transit cars operated in the U.S."

I should have just linked to the primary source, quoted by Eno, which is 49 USC 5323:

Anyway, I bet @Nitro hasn't read either version.

I didn't have to read it. I figured it out.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

I didn't have to read it. I figured it out.

Apparently, you did not. Maybe if you read it, you would have learned something.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

15 hours ago, Nitro said:

We could easily manufacture subway cars in the United States for a quarter to half of the price if the federal government allowed that…

And we do, and the federal government does. Kawasaki has railcar assembly plants in Yonkers, NY and Lincoln, Nebraska, Bombardier (Now Alstom) had plants in Plattsburgh, NY and also did additional subway car assembly in Pittsburgh, CA for BART. Not to mention the various other plants Busjack mentioned above, including the one on the South Side of Chicago that is currently manufacturing the 7000s.

Regardless of what company is building the railcars, they are still being built in the United States.

[Nitro]

6 hours ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

And we do, and the federal government does. Kawasaki has railcar assembly plants in Yonkers, NY and Lincoln, Nebraska, Bombardier (Now Alstom) had plants in Plattsburgh, NY and also did additional subway car assembly in Pittsburgh, CA for BART. Not to mention the various other plants Busjack mentioned above, including the one on the South Side of Chicago that is currently manufacturing the 7000s.

Regardless of what company is building the railcars, they are still being built in the United States.

I'm not talking about the parts being assembled. What I am talking about are the parts shipped here to the United States. Which isn't free.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, Nitro said:

I'm not talking about the parts being assembled. What I am talking about are the parts shipped here to the United States. Which isn't free.

But, again, you can't read. 70% of the parts have to be made in the United States. For instance, someone posted that the seats are made in Bellwood, Illinois, which isn't Bulgaria. And this does not mean that the federal government requires that 29.9% of the parts be foreign, which seems implied by your statements.

In essence, you don't know what you are "talking about."

[Nitro]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

But, again, you can't read. 70% of the parts have to be made in the United States. For instance, someone posted that the seats are made in Bellwood, Illinois, which isn't Bulgaria. And this does not mean that the federal government requires that 29.9% of the parts be foreign, which seems implied by your statements.

In essence, you don't know what you are "talking about."

I already did the research by federal law 69% of the parts have to be manufactured in the U.S with 31% being foreign made. Which is a conflict of interest.

[Nitro]

1 minute ago, Nitro said:

I already did the research by federal law 69% of the parts have to be manufactured in the U.S with 31% being foreign made. Which is a conflict of interest.

Hey at least the 2600s series are here to stay lol.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

I already did the research by federal law 69% of the parts have to be manufactured in the U.S with 31% being foreign made. Which is a conflict of interest.

No, you didn't. You previously said "What I am talking about are the parts shipped here to the United States," and,before that "We could easily manufacture subway cars in the United States for a quarter to half of the price if the federal government allowed that""  If that meant that the federal government prohibits the manufacture of cars or parts in the United States, you are just plain wrong.

Your words speak for themselves. Quit lying.

And a "minimum of 70%" isn't 69%, but maybe they "learn" you "different" in the New York elementary schools.

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

Hey at least the 2600s series are here to stay lol.

At least until the 7000s or 9000s arrive.

"LOL?" You aren't funny.

[Sam92]

1 hour ago, Nitro said:

Hey at least the 2600s series are here to stay lol.

My guy are you looking up the same CTA? ?????

[Sam92]

56 minutes ago, Busjack said:

No, you didn't. You previously said "What I am talking about are the parts shipped here to the United States," and,before that "We could easily manufacture subway cars in the United States for a quarter to half of the price if the federal government allowed that""  If that meant that the federal government prohibits the manufacture of cars or parts in the United States, you are just plain wrong.

Your words speak for themselves. Quit lying.

And a "minimum of 70%" isn't 69%, but maybe they "learn" you "different" in the New York elementary schools.

 

Common core math? ?

[Busjack]

3 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

Common core math? ?

When I went to school, common core was first year of college, not 4th grade.? I admit I got tripped up on calculus and statistics.  They said no TAs, but that's all the math dept. had.  ?

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

12 hours ago, Nitro said:

I'm not talking about the parts being assembled. What I am talking about are the parts shipped here to the United States. Which isn't free.

Then can you please specify that? You said:

On 9/30/2023 at 8:12 AM, Nitro said:

…We could easily manufacture *subway cars* in the United States…

Subway cars are implied to mean just that: the entire completed subway car. So if you’re saying subway cars, but you actually mean HVAC system or traction motors, why???

And as others have said, 70% of the components in the cars have to be sourced from the US.

8 hours ago, Nitro said:

Hey at least the 2600s series are here to stay lol.

Only as work motors and in museums, but that’s it. The only reason why they’re having a prolonged stay with the CTA is because of the issues with CRRC, and because the tracks that are used to deliver the 7000s to Rosemont Yard from Skokie Shops are completely out of service right now. But the 2600 I saw being hauled away on the Tristate a few months ago definitely is a sign they’re on their way out.

[Nitro]

On 10/1/2023 at 12:26 PM, Busjack said:

No, you didn't. You previously said "What I am talking about are the parts shipped here to the United States," and,before that "We could easily manufacture subway cars in the United States for a quarter to half of the price if the federal government allowed that""  If that meant that the federal government prohibits the manufacture of cars or parts in the United States, you are just plain wrong.

Your words speak for themselves. Quit lying.

And a "minimum of 70%" isn't 69%, but maybe they "learn" you "different" in the New York elementary schools.

At least until the 7000s or 9000s arrive.

"LOL?" You aren't funny.

The parts are cheaper to import if they are manufactured domestically or another neighboring country like Canada or some shit. It's like BMW & Mercedes Benz. In Europe their cars are priced much cheaper thanks to their vicinity to the country that the parts were manufactured in. Meanwhile in the United States owning a BMW or Mercedes is quite costly unless you buy them at a cheaper price from a used dealership.

[Nitro]

On 10/1/2023 at 8:28 PM, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

Then can you please specify that? You said:

Subway cars are implied to mean just that: the entire completed subway car. So if you’re saying subway cars, but you actually mean HVAC system or traction motors, why???

And as others have said, 70% of the components in the cars have to be sourced from the US.

Only as work motors and in museums, but that’s it. The only reason why they’re having a prolonged stay with the CTA is because of the issues with CRRC, and because the tracks that are used to deliver the 7000s to Rosemont Yard from Skokie Shops are completely out of service right now. But the 2600 I saw being hauled away on the Tristate a few months ago definitely is a sign they’re on their way out.

You want to know about that. It's everything you can think about. The trucks, traction systems, motors, body shells, & bogies, Everything you need to know about what's being produced from manufacturing plants across the country. Then add the costs of shipping the parts over to Chicago with the order per railcar. You can guess the cost per railcar however consider the importing costs as well. 

How many of them are 70% most of the newer subway car orders were delayed, had issues with the manufacturer, and broke down, Most of the parts imported aren’t from the United States anymore. Since Alstom, Siemens, Kawasaki, & China already took over most of the railroad industry.