Minneapolis "t" Buses....

[Busjack]

In other news, I have seen that the DARTS cutaways have begun to be repainted in Metro Mobility and Transit Link paint schemes. I have also seen a former HSI cutaway in one of the two new schemes, but I can't remember which. I also saw a cutaway with gray and brown stripes with a Metro Mobility logo at Burnsville Station.

Are the cutaways property of the contractors (DARTS), or the transit authority? The relevance to this forum (regardless of this topic) is that while Pace owns the paratransit vehicles in the suburbs (and thus the exterior decor depends on what Pace ordered when), the city vehicles are owned by the contractors, generally consist of minivans or Scions, and are only identifiable as "Pace Paratransit" by a magentic sticker with that legend.

[Tcmetro]

Are the cutaways property of the contractors (DARTS), or the transit authority? The relevance to this forum (regardless of this topic) is that while Pace owns the paratransit vehicles in the suburbs (and thus the exterior decor depends on what Pace ordered when), the city vehicles are owned by the contractors, generally consist of minivans or Scions, and are only identifiable as "Pace Paratransit" by a magentic sticker with that legend.

Yes, I believe that they are owned by the TA (Metropolitan Council/Metro Mobility).

[Coastercameron]

Does anyone know if Lorenz and Robbinson are still splitting Route 87? I used to live 3 blocks away from the Highland Park terminous of the 87, and for months 1 or 2 of the busses on the route (I believe it takes 3 busses to operate this route) were older (approx 2003?) vintage 29ft Gillig low floores from Robbinson, while 1 or 2 were brand new 29 ft Gilligs operated by Lorenz.

Also, I inadvertantly drove by a First facility near Broadway and Industrial in NE Mpls today, I saw a TON of old Blue Birds (mostly looked like Plymouth livery) as well as 3 out of the 4 New Flyer D60LF's that used to run the U of M campus shuttle. Apparently these have been mothballed since being taken out of service about 2 years ago when they got the Van Hools. It is a shame, as those busses are no more than 6-8 years old, and still had a lot of life left in them. I'm surprised First hasn't gotten one Plymouth or someone to buy them and repaint them.

Final report, I saw that SW Transit is laying over thier busses during mid-day in a private lot directly behind the Metrodome now.

[MVTArider]

Does anyone know if Lorenz and Robbinson are still splitting Route 87? I used to live 3 blocks away from the Highland Park terminous of the 87, and for months 1 or 2 of the busses on the route (I believe it takes 3 busses to operate this route) were older (approx 2003?) vintage 29ft Gillig low floores from Robbinson, while 1 or 2 were brand new 29 ft Gilligs operated by Lorenz.

I'm not sure. I did get a photo of one of the new Lorenz operated 2009 GILLIGs on the 87 back in August of 09 but it was only the older Robbinson 2002 units when I was out at Rosedale in June. Incidentally the MTS fleets seem the get tagged pretty heavily from what i've seen. Are they not cleaned up often?

Also, I inadvertantly drove by a First facility near Broadway and Industrial in NE Mpls today, I saw a TON of old Blue Birds (mostly looked like Plymouth livery) as well as 3 out of the 4 New Flyer D60LF's that used to run the U of M campus shuttle. Apparently these have been mothballed since being taken out of service about 2 years ago when they got the Van Hools. It is a shame, as those busses are no more than 6-8 years old, and still had a lot of life left in them. I'm surprised First hasn't gotten one Plymouth or someone to buy them and repaint them.

Most of the Bluebirds should be out of service now as only three are on the active roster. So it's sort of odd that they're at First instead of getting returned to the Met Council for disposal. I miss the 2003 NFs The AG300s are awful for riding on the bumpy roads we have. The look neat but thats about it. I was told the NFs would be redeployed to another First site but I guess not. I did see and ride one of the 2002 GILLIG Low Floors on the 122 last spring, in the new livery too, but since they added the second hybrid it's just been Van Hools and the GILLIG hybrids.

Final report, I saw that SW Transit is laying over thier busses during mid-day in a private lot directly behind the Metrodome now.

I've been meaning to go to that lot for some photos :P

[Coastercameron]

Yeah, I haven't seen that 2002 Gillig LF that got repainted since the 2nd Hybrid got delivered. I disagree with your thoughts on the AG330's though. They may not be the smoothest around, but they work GREAT for the U of M service. They hold a TON of people, and you can pack them all the way to the gills with standees due to the back door being at the VERY back of the bus. The time that the Van Hools spend at the stops when they are crush loaded is easily 1/3 to 1/4 of the time it took at stops with the Gilligs. I think the Van Hools are great for the very specific task they have been given. I think Japan is the only place in the world that can pack a transit vehicle better than the U of M.

I believe First is also using one of the ex-U of M Gilligs as a spare for the Delta service at MSP.

Does anyone have a good answer for why the U of M used to have such a rag-tag fleet? Why did they buy 4 new Gilligs, and 4 New Flyers, but continue running mostly Blue Birds, then followed by the JUNKER fleet of Phantoms from Denver, along with the random 3 NABI retirees from Alameda County? Why didn't they have a homogenous fleet in the first place?

I DO NOT miss the Gillig LF's at all, with that narrow back door, it took seemingly HOURS to get everyone off and back on those busses when they were crowded.

The Hybrids they have now are bad, though to a lesser extent, in this regard too. Even average students notice this. I have heard "The Hybrid busses are always so much more crowded!" from students who dont know anything about busses numerous times. The lack of seating and width of the seats they have are also quite annoying.. I cringe whenever I am trying to take the connector and see the Hybrid come around the corner, because I know there is a 75% chance I'll be standing.

[MVTArider]

I disagree with your thoughts on the AG330's though. They may not be the smoothest around, but they work GREAT for the U of M service. They hold a TON of people, and you can pack them all the way to the gills with standees due to the back door being at the VERY back of the bus. The time that the Van Hools spend at the stops when they are crush loaded is easily 1/3 to 1/4 of the time it took at stops with the Gilligs. I think the Van Hools are great for the very specific task they have been given. I think Japan is the only place in the world that can pack a transit vehicle better than the U of M.

I believe First is also using one of the ex-U of M Gilligs as a spare for the Delta service at MSP.

I DO NOT miss the Gillig LF's at all, with that narrow back door, it took seemingly HOURS to get everyone off and back on those busses when they were crowded.

The Hybrids they have now are bad, though to a lesser extent, in this regard too. Even average students notice this. I have heard "The Hybrid busses are always so much more crowded!" from students who dont know anything about busses numerous times. The lack of seating and width of the seats they have are also quite annoying.. I cringe whenever I am trying to take the connector and see the Hybrid come around the corner, because I know there is a 75% chance I'll be standing.

Oh I agree the Van Hools are awesome for packing crowds of students in to quickly board/alight and move them around. Much better at it than the old GILLIG LFs. I just don't like the choppy ride quality they have, hence I miss the old units in that regard. I also have heard complaints about the hybrid seating layout. They would probably be a little better with more forward facing seats in the back section. They should also get rid of that stupid divider at the rear door. It seems to clog the doorway more than creating two streams of passengers.

EDIT: Also comparing the AG300s to the D60LFs they replaced I don't think boarding time was much different. But it's definitely improved with the A300Ls compared to the old GILLIG LFs.

[Tcmetro]

I think that the U of M bought the Blue Birds in the mid-90's, possibly in 1996 when service was rearranged (but I'm not sure).

I have a theory of why the U of M got those ex-Denver Phantoms and the ex-Oakland NABIs. First Transit bought those (or borrowed) from ABC Companies while waiting for the Van Hools to be delivered. I think they wanted to get the Phantoms and NABIs to replace the Blue Birds, which may have had to be replaced by the contract. Honestly I have no idea, and these are just my guesses.

I saw U of M Gillig LF 625 and another (likely 624) in service on Saturday when the football game and the Obama thing were going on. There were also several Van Hools in service for a West Bank-Stadium shuttle.

Does anyone know the fleet numbers and models of the U of M minibuses?

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Also, today I saw SW Transit Glaval Universal 816 today on the 603 route in Eden Prairie.

SW Transit's October meeting packet is up as well: http://swtransit.org/sites/d82719c7-9b33-46b8-a7af-e5577d7145af/uploads/Packet_4.pdf

It looks like buses 601 (2001 New Flyer Invero), 102 (2002 Optima Trolley), 816 (2008 Glaval Universal), 778 (2008 Glaval Universal), and 773 (2007 Glaval Titan) are being sent back to the Met Council because they have too many spares. It looks like they will be left with MCI Coaches, Gillig Phantoms and BRTs, New Flyer D40LFRs, and 1 lone Van Terra cutaway. Interestingly the board packet says 102 is a 2002 model, while the SWT fact sheet (http://swtransit.org/sites/d82719c7-9b33-46b8-a7af-e5577d7145af/uploads/SWT_Fact_Sheet.pdf) says that the only Optima is a 2005 model. Hmmmm....

[Tcmetro]

I've made some updates to the CPTDB wiki. I added the cutaways and trolleys as well as the retired fleet for SW Transit, and I updated the Metro Transit page with more current fleet info.

http://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Minneapolis-St._Paul_Metro_Transit

http://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Southwest_Transit

[MVTArider]

Does anyone know the fleet numbers and models of the U of M minibuses?

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It looks like buses 601 (2001 New Flyer Invero), 102 (2002 Optima Trolley), 816 (2008 Glaval Universal), 778 (2008 Glaval Universal), and 773 (2007 Glaval Titan) are being sent back to the Met Council because they have too many spares.

Startrans Senator on Ford E450 #548 IIRC. There's also been a different model on the 122 WABC lately. I think it's a Starcraft but i'll have to check next time I see it. Otherwise I think they only use a handful of cutaways as the 123 only needs one and the 124 only needs one or possibly two. I'll try to write down the numbers I see over the next few days.

Gee, I wonder why their returning the Invero I wonder who will be the next lucky recipient? It would look awesome in the new MVTA livery. Unless MC just sells it they'll probably have to reupholster all the seats and repaint so it fits in with another regional fleet or the MTS fleet.

The cutaways I'm sure will just get reassigned to MTS or maybe MVTA. If they all have the medium duty 7yr chassis then their good for a while.

[Coastercameron]

When have you been seeing Cutaways on the 122? It is always full-sized VanHool 40fters during the weekdays. They run that bus in the MOST inefficient way possible. They have 2 busses running during the day, but they essentially operate on a bump system. One sits outside Eddy Hall for about 8 minutes, the other one pulls in behind it, then it leaves. Bus #2 then waits for 8 minuntes until bus #1 gets back, then it goes again. They could maintain the same trip frequency with only 1 bus! Why they don't have the buses continually cycle and offer 4 minute lead time is mind boggling!

[MVTArider]

When have you been seeing Cutaways on the 122? It is always full-sized VanHool 40fters during the weekdays. They run that bus in the MOST inefficient way possible. They have 2 busses running during the day, but they essentially operate on a bump system. One sits outside Eddy Hall for about 8 minutes, the other one pulls in behind it, then it leaves. Bus #2 then waits for 8 minuntes until bus #1 gets back, then it goes again. They could maintain the same trip frequency with only 1 bus! Why they don't have the buses continually cycle and offer 4 minute lead time is mind boggling!

Ha I know it! After 3pm one of the Van Hools heads back to the lot. Then sometime after that the other appears to be replaced by a cutaway. I've only seen cutaways on that route during the evening, about 8-8:30pm or so. I think I saw one last week on it about 5:30 though. What's weird is whenever I see one pull up on Washington there's usually 15 people getting off and 10-20 getting on so it would probably make more sense to use anther Van Hool or a GILLIG instead.

So far the only cutaway # i've seen lately is #548 as I mentioned. It'll be interesting to see if the ones in the new U of MN livery show up at Thomson for the office parking lot shuttles again this winter during semester break.

[Coastercameron]

I also noticed they slashed the hours for the WABC... It only runs till like 8 during the week now, and only till like 4 on Friday... I think it is ironic because the U was always quick last year to encourage people to take the WABC late at night to get home whenever there was a robbery/attack, advertising that it ran late.

[Tcmetro]

Last week when I was at Rosedale waiting for the 801, I noticed that the US DOT numbers for Lorenz and Robinson were the same. I would imagine that they are the same company, then.

The Blue Bird that was on the 801, #01510, was shorter than 01514, and was a little different. The farebox was not located in front of the driver as usual, but in front of the first passenger seats! The driver had a person put their fare in the farebox, then told her to press "B" to get a transfer.

I also went past the First Transit garage in the NE Industrial Park a few days ago. There were 3 of the U of M D60LF's sitting there, one of which had all of its U of M logos removed, and chipping/peeling paint. There wasn't much else in the lot, except a few cutaways and 30' Gillig LF's, since it was rush hour.

[Tcmetro]

Yesterday crews were installing NexTrip signs at South Bloomington Transit Center.

Also the list of changes is out: http://metrotransit.org/TransitArticles/Story.aspx?pageid=18&mid=393&articleid=207.

Mainly the 35W/46th St Station changes, but some others including Rt. 7 no longer going to the Lake St LRT, new trip on 375, addition of 724 service to Rasmussen and midday service to Target Northern Campus, as well as a new trip on the 860 for the performing arts high school in DT St. Paul. Also the 785 service will start. The new 285 and 887F changes are included, even though they happened in October.

The schedules are up, but not the PDF versions.

SW Transit Dec 4th changes as well: http://swtransit.org/12_6_10_Service_Change.html

Some 690, 697, 699 trips replaced with 698 and 691 trips, new 631 to Southdale, and no more midday 603. Looks like both the 631 and 684 will serve Southdale, but the 684 will not stop at 46th St, as was earlier proposed.

[Guest]

Whats at 1000 Lyndale ave N. in Minneapolis? Another "T" Garage of some sort??

[MVTArider]

The Blue Bird that was on the 801, #01510, was shorter than 01514, and was a little different. The farebox was not located in front of the driver as usual, but in front of the first passenger seats! The driver had a person put their fare in the farebox, then told her to press "B" to get a transfer.

Sounds like that Orion II in Cleveland. Same setup except it had an Odyssey box instead of Cents-A-Bill so the driver had the control buttons.

Yesterday crews were installing NexTrip signs at South Bloomington Transit Center.

I wish they could put one in at the west bank stops. That's one place where buses can vary significantly in their actual arrival time.

Whats at 1000 Lyndale ave N. in Minneapolis? Another "T" Garage of some sort??

I'm not sure. I looked up the address on Google Maps but I only saw housing and fields?? MJ Ruter is in Brooklyn Park but that's not near Lyndale as far as I know.

[Bus Driver Dude]

Whats at 1000 Lyndale ave N. in Minneapolis? Another "T" Garage of some sort??

I can tell you there are no buses that are park in that building. I believe it is for some operation support. Metro Transit own that whle corner. Someday when Metro Transit gets money they will build Haywood 2 there on the open area along 7th Street.

[Tcmetro]

The building was torn down a while ago. I think it was in the spring or last winter. Currently the lot has retired buses in it, I think they are sent to 7th/Lyndale before they are sent to Snelling/94.

[Bus Driver Dude]

The building was torn down a while ago. I think it was in the spring or last winter. Currently the lot has retired buses in it, I think they are sent to 7th/Lyndale before they are sent to Snelling/94.

I think CTA5750 was referring to the white building, CLICK HERE FOR PHOTO. The building that was torn down last summer was the old Ragstock building. The white building is shelter and ground maintenance. I asked today.

[MVTArider]

I think CTA5750 was referring to the white building, CLICK HERE FOR PHOTO. The building that was torn down last summer was the old Ragstock building. The white building is shelter and ground maintenance. I asked today.

Ah that building! I was wondering what it was for myself actually. Thanks for getting the info.

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I finally got some pictures, not great ones, of the new GILLIGs yesterday:

The Phantoms have been getting wrapped more lately: In addition to this one there are two for Dock 86, one or two for some beer, and IIRC a couple half wraps for Target's grocery thing. There are also Target ad wrapped traincars and the Metrodome LRT station platform.

Megabus seemed to have a successful midday run yesterday:

Lorenz operated MTS GILLIGs 6091 and 6093 were on the 87 yesterday afternoon. 6093 appears to be having some exhaust issues:

This concludes my report :)

[Tcmetro]

Nice pics. I've been wanting to get some snow pics myself, except I don't want to take pics in the cold.

The beer ads are for Pabst Blue Ribbon, there is also an ad wrap or two for Joesph & the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, which is playing at the Ordway. There are still some side ads for the Metro Transit marketing campaign, but I can't remember the others right now.

The other day I was on the 538, and the drivers were talking about why the buses are in bad shape. They don't have enough buses to take one out at a time for an overhaul, apparently.

Also, on the 539, apparently NB trips to Southdale stop at Yorktown Continental Apts, near 70th & York, except I am not sure if rush hour trips stop there or not. There is no indication of the stop in the maps or schedules.

Another observation, the Marq2 bus shelters are terrible. They are too open to the cold, unlike the "custom" bus shelters located on Hennepin, 4th, and 8th. It'd be nice if we had enclosed shelters like in Winnipeg (thanks for the photo, MVTArider) :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/4867217241/in/set-72157620470556847/

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EDIT: Looking at St. Cloud MTC's website it looks like the moved to the numbered route system, and got some D40LFR's with frameless windows! It is fleet number 707.

http://www.stcloudmtc.com/

EDIT 2: Nevermind, it looks like they are already on the CPTDB wiki, and are actually D35LFR's.

[MVTArider]

Nice pics. I've been wanting to get some snow pics myself, except I don't want to take pics in the cold.

....

The other day I was on the 538, and the drivers were talking about why the buses are in bad shape. They don't have enough buses to take one out at a time for an overhaul, apparently.

....

Another observation, the Marq2 bus shelters are terrible. They are too open to the cold, unlike the "custom" bus shelters located on Hennepin, 4th, and 8th. It'd be nice if we had enclosed shelters like in Winnipeg (thanks for the photo, MVTArider) :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/4867217241/in/set-72157620470556847/

Thanks

Interesting, sounds sort of similar to another contractor's situation in Chicagoland... I hope MTS can assign another GILLIG so they can overhaul those eventually. Maybe that also explains why they don't clean up the tagging on the seats very well.

Agreed! Same goes for many of LRT platform shelters.

I saw 3020 on an express route today. Also for UofMN cutaways there is a #549 which is also a Startrans Senator on Ford E-450 and #2217, a Champion (I think) on Ford E-450. Both are older models so I wonder if they'll be replaced in the near future?

[Bus Driver Dude]

Another observation, the Marq2 bus shelters are terrible. They are too open to the cold, unlike the "custom" bus shelters located on Hennepin, 4th, and 8th. It'd be nice if we had enclosed shelters like in Winnipeg (thanks for the photo, MVTArider) :

I noticed crews working on the bus shelters the last couple of days on Marq and 2nd Ave.

[MVTArider]

I noticed crews working on the bus shelters the last couple of days on Marq and 2nd Ave.

Yeah I saw that! They were putting up a new shelter at one of the F stops on 2nd on Tuesday.

Bus 2.0 is now in service: http://www.mvta.com/mvta_driver_assist_system_begins_passenger_service.html

MVTA December board meeting agenda has been posted: http://www.mvta.com/november_december_2010_board_packet_-_meeting_dec_8_2010.html

Of Note:

• That phantom Phantom thats been hanging around is a BUS 2.0 tester , #4015
  
• It appears they are still planning on getting 7 new medium duty cutaways next year at a cost of roughly $130,000 each
  

[Tcmetro]

The new schedules today caused me to miss my connection this morning, causing me to miss class. But it wasn't all bad, I got to go to the new 46th St Transit Station and get some photos. Unfortunately, I don't have my cord on me to upload them.

It is a pretty cool station. Hopefully they install more of these when freeway interchanges are rebuilt.

Anyways, the 535 is so much faster now that they got rid of the part along Nicollet. And it runs more frequently during rush hour, although only on the DT-76th St segment.

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A couple weeks ago I saw what looked to be an ex-MVTA Blue Bird, possibly the LTC-37 on the St. Thomas shuttle. I will try to hunt it down soon. :lol: