Seattle MAN artics?

[BusHunter]

7301-2172

7309-2082

7311-2157

7313-2200

7314-2153

7317-2068

7324-2059

7328-2135

7331-2094

7342-2169

7358-2050

7362-2026

7380-2185

7373-2107

7387-2052

7388-2113

7407-2189

Andre

One minor problem or question Andre. You list #7373 as #2107. I list it as #2118. Did I make a mistake, or is it simply a typo on your end? I notice there is no #7383 number and being that you placed #7373 between #7380 and #7387 I'm going to assume that #2107 is #7383's former number. OK Thanks again on the list!!

[Busjack]

Why would Seattle paint a bus white for Chicago? King county metro could care less what the buses will do once they leave them.

The purpose is that King County has a trademark in its current livery, which it apparently wants to protect from dilution. Apparently King County didn't care about the old livery any more.

What other explanation is there for only some of the buses being repainted if CTA cared? Then it would have repainted the brown ones, too, which had an older paint job.

For that matter, why would AC Transit repaint or strip its buses to white, when it is reported that Royal American is now in the process of painting them in its colors?

[BusHunter]

The purpose is that King County has a trademark in its current livery, which it apparently wants to protect from dilution. Apparently King County didn't care about the old livery any more.

What other explanation is there for only some of the buses being repainted if CTA cared? Then it would have repainted the brown ones, too, which had an older paint job.

For that matter, why would AC Transit repaint or strip its buses to white, when it is reported that Royal American is now in the process of painting them in its colors?

Some of the CTA #7300's weren't repainted because they simply ran out of time. They needed the buses in service. Not in the paint shop. They were only 2 year buses anyway. No big deal. It wasn't pretty but it works. Based on your explanation, how could any museum be able to operate anything under a trademark?

[Busjack]

Based on your explanation, how could any museum be able to operate anything under a trademark?

Only with the permission of the donor (express or implied by acquiescence). There were others complaining that pace blacked out its logos when it took buses out of service (see discussion about this issue, but not the legal ramifications, here).

[BusHunter]

Only with the permission of the donor (express or implied by acquiescence). There were others complaining that pace blacked out its logos when it took buses out of service (see discussion about this issue, but not the legal ramifications, here).

I understand that you can't use logo's, but you were referring to entire liveries. Repainting the bus white, most likely is at the discretion of the previous owner. That is their choice. But if Seattle did do that why not just paint the blue or green and leave the yellow. Yellow only is not their scheme. Isn't repainting the whole bus overkill?

[Busjack]

Why don't you research the issue of trade dress and come back to us about it?

Obviously, though, if the trade dress theory was the motivation, it was up to King County to decide how to protect it, which is what you seem to acknowledge.

[Anonymous Guy]

I was under the impression that the reason the Green/Yellow buses might've been repainted was due to their colors conflicting with CTA's scheme, not a trade dress issue. The older, White/Yellow King County scheme didn't clash too much with CTA's current colors.

Then again, I had initially thought that Chicago never received any of the recolored units.

[Busjack]

Anonymous Guy:

Do you have any list of the green/yellow units (similar to the lists otherwise in this thread) or are just relying on the web picture? I'm asking just because I wonder if 2113 is an isolated case, or if a pattern can be developed? Obviously, none of us can now hire the This Old House paint expert to do an archaeological scrape of the paint to try to establish or debug any of the theories.

Thanks.

[Anonymous Guy]

Can't say I have a full list, sorry.

This would probably be your best bet, however it probably would be tedious to look over each of the images: http://www.busdude.com/HTML/KCM_man_sg310.htm

There are lots of holes missing, and it seems that the 2113 is the only pictured example of a repainted MAN.

[Busjack]

Looking at Busdude, apparently 2001, 2019, 2107, 2117, 2119, 2172, 2185 had even a different livery (mostly white with a brown and yellow rub rail and gray rocker panel). Those buses are later listed by BusHunter as Chicago paint.

Also, it appears from the Busdude collection that BusHunter's comment that "It is a bit controversial however, that CTA would repaint this bus like they don't care about what happened in Seattle or they were trying to cover it up" had no substance, as buses in all three color schemes were in the procession, and the bus at issue in the incident was not sold to CTA.

As far as the ones I listed above even being "in CTA paint," one can make inferences from the 4915 gallery, showing that even though the 4915 series buses had the blue and red CTA belt rails, those were over where the Pace yellow and blue ones were (including over the front); also, the Pace stickers near the kneeler lights, the Pace roof stripe, and the still visible Pace number on one indicate that CTA sure didn't give them a full paint job. Again, I am speculating, but it is possible that all CTA did with the Seattle buses listed in this post was remove the rub rail stripe, not completely repaint them.

Update: Aiding my suspicion: this picture showing a white bus with the Seattle wide swing decal.

Anyway, Anonymous Guy, thank you for your lead while we continue our detective work.

[BusHunter]

Looking at Busdude, apparently 2001, 2019, 2107, 2117, 2119, 2172, 2185 had even a different livery (mostly white with a brown and yellow rub rail and gray rocker panel). Those buses are later listed by BusHunter as Chicago paint.

Also, it appears from the Busdude collection that BusHunter's comment that "It is a bit controversial however, that CTA would repaint this bus like they don't care about what happened in Seattle or they were trying to cover it up" had no substance, as buses in all three color schemes were in the procession, and the bus at issue in the incident was not sold to CTA.

As far as the ones I listed above even being "in CTA paint," one can make inferences from the 4915 gallery, showing that even though the 4915 series buses had the blue and red CTA belt rails, those were over where the Pace yellow and blue ones were (including over the front); also, the Pace stickers near the kneeler lights, the Pace roof stripe, and the still visible Pace number on one indicate that CTA sure didn't give them a full paint job. Again, I am speculating, but it is possible that all CTA did with the Seattle buses listed in this post was remove the rub rail stripe, not completely repaint them.

Update: Aiding my suspicion: this picture showing a white bus with the Seattle wide swing decal.

Anyway, Anonymous Guy, thank you for your lead while we continue our detective work.

OK detective Busjack, I got something for you to figure out. If CTA painted only the blue and red stripes on both the #4915's and ex Seattle buses, why would the paint all appear new, not showing any signs of age? Also just because a paint is white, it has different shines to the paint. Would Seattle or Pace know exactly what shade of white fits CTA's livery or would they even care! Well maybe Pace because there all RTA operated, this explains your #4915's, but how do you explain Seattle? You know, Busjack something you said makes sense somewhat. That the buses you listed were in several liveries for Seattle. Now that would be confusing to CTA customers so a repaint would be necessary. I'd subscribe to that explaination better than what you proposed. Also what you discuss saying that there were 3 different liveries in the Funeral procession in Seattle. All that is irrellevant, #2113 is the only bus I was concerned with. The only way to really know what happened is to find the person in the paint shop and ask him what he did! You might have to go undercover to get this info detective. Like they say on the X-files "The truth is out there."

[Busjack]

OK detective Busjack, I got something for you to figure out. If CTA painted only the blue and red stripes on both the #4915's and ex Seattle buses, why would the paint all appear new, not showing any signs of age? Also just because a paint is white, it has different shines to the paint. Would Seattle or Pace know exactly what shade of white fits CTA's livery or would they even care! Well maybe Pace because there all RTA operated, this explains your #4915's, but how do you explain Seattle? You know, Busjack something you said makes sense somewhat. That the buses you listed were in several liveries for Seattle. Now that would be confusing to CTA customers so a repaint would be necessary. I'd subscribe to that explaination better than what you proposed. Also what you discuss saying that there were 3 different liveries in the Funeral procession in Seattle. All that is irrellevant, #2113 is the only bus I was concerned with. The only way to really know what happened is to find the person in the paint shop and ask him what he did! You might have to go undercover to get this info detective. Like they say on the X-files "The truth is out there."

I agree with the X files point and the need for the paint shop records. However, apparently there is something called "transit white" (I've seen it in Pace specifications), and unless there is evidence that Seattle got the buses in two brown and yellow liveries, the ones with the colors at the rub rail would have newer paint (and generally look better than the other ones on BusDude). Looking for explanations, you didn't have one for why Seattle wide swing decals were still on the buses, if CTA completely repainted them (you can look at BusDude and see a couple of examples of those stickers on the back of the buses in Seattle).

[Guest]

Wouldve been nice to have recieved a Seattle artic/livery bus for CHBMs collection.

[BusHunter]

I agree with the X files point and the need for the paint shop records. However, apparently there is something called "transit white" (I've seen it in Pace specifications), and unless there is evidence that Seattle got the buses in two brown and yellow liveries, the ones with the colors at the rub rail would have newer paint (and generally look better than the other ones on BusDude). Looking for explanations, you didn't have one for why Seattle wide swing decals were still on the buses, if CTA completely repainted them (you can look at BusDude and see a couple of examples of those stickers on the back of the buses in Seattle).

Are you talking about the caution signs on the rear of the buses. Probably CTA just painted around them. A few more caution signs can't hurt can it. For that matter, if Seattle painted the rear "transit white" why wouldn't they paint over the decals hmm? Where is this rub rail you speak of? Having two paints on a bus at different ages, in relation to the entire livery would stand out like a sore thumb. I'm getting confused where do you stand on this issue, one minute you say Seattle didn't paint the buses, then you say they painted them transit white with the same luster as CTA. I'll tell you this, those paint jobs were definitely all new someone did paint them. Who? I don't know. That's your job detective. B)

[Busjack]

one minute you say Seattle didn't paint the buses, then you say they painted them transit white with the same luster as CTA.

No, I didn't say the first. I'm sorry that you are confusing yourself. However, it doesn't seem like you can back up your assertion that CTA repainted any bus (at least in full, as opposed to striping them and putting on logo and number decals). It's possible that it happened, but apparently you don't have the paint shop records either. Unless you do, lets leave it at that.

[Anonymous Guy]

Wouldve been nice to have recieved a Seattle artic/livery bus for CHBMs collection.

If I recall correctly, the Illinois Railroad Museum had placed a hold on one of Seattle's MAN artics, however it has yet to be picked up. Maybe the deal fell through?

EDIT: It's a trolley coach. That probably wouldn't do the CHBM much good.

[RIPTA42]

The coach was donated to IRM. They are rasing the money to tow it to Union.

[Busdude]

I think i can clear up some of the confusion here. First off, There were three seattle liveries on these coaches

The Brown/Yellow "Sunrise" This was the origonal livery on the coaches

The Grey, with Brown Stripes "Blah", These were repainted after about 1990 in this livery.

and the Yellow/Green (only applied to coach 2113 after it recieved major bodywork. It was the only one 2000 to wear this livery, although many of the 4000s (SGT-310 Trolleycoaches, like the one at IRM) Recieved it.

Judging by the photos i saw, it would appear for the most part the ones in the "blah" scheme and 2113 recieved the CTA livery, and there were a few in the sunrise that got repainted as well later on.

The day before Thanksgiving of 1998, a veteran Metro Transit operator, Mark Mclaughlin was shot while driving his coach over the aurora bridge, the coach veered off the bridge and crashed onto the ground. His badge was 2106, and coach 2106 (CTA 7302) was repainted in the "Sunrise" Scheme shortly before his service. Many coaches had wreath's on them the day of the services, 2113 no exception.

[Guest]

Heres an old classic from Sesame Street. Taken aboard a Seattle fishbowl, Watch!

[Busjack]

If I recall correctly, the Illinois Railroad Museum had placed a hold on one of Seattle's MAN artics, however it has yet to be picked up. Maybe the deal fell through?

EDIT: It's a trolley coach. That probably wouldn't do the CHBM much good.

That's undoubtedly correct. IRM does have a big trolley bus barn, though.

Judging by the photos i saw, it would appear for the most part the ones in the "blah" scheme and 2113 recieved the CTA livery, and there were a few in the sunrise that got repainted as well later on.

This was discussed up this thread, about 2 years ago.

In that the buses still had the "wide load" Seattle signs on the back, it is unlikely that any (except any Yellow Green) got repainted. The ones with the brown and yellow belt rails just got CTA white decals. More than likely, those with the colors at the rub rail had that pulled off and red and blue CTA decal stripes added. Someone noted yesterday that the Seattle fleet numbers were still on the roof in Chicago, which I also saw from the Howard L platform.

Also undoubtedly the same for the 700 series South Suburban-Pace buses and 4915 series Pace buses used by CTA (as noted by that the blue stripe at the top was still there).

[Guest]

I think i can clear up some of the confusion here. First off, There were three seattle liveries on these coaches

The Brown/Yellow "Sunrise" This was the origonal livery on the coaches

The Grey, with Brown Stripes "Blah", These were repainted after about 1990 in this livery.

and the Yellow/Green (only applied to coach 2113 after it recieved major bodywork. It was the only one 2000 to wear this livery, although many of the 4000s (SGT-310 Trolleycoaches, like the one at IRM) Recieved it.

Judging by the photos i saw, it would appear for the most part the ones in the "blah" scheme and 2113 recieved the CTA livery, and there were a few in the sunrise that got repainted as well later on.

The day before Thanksgiving of 1998, a veteran Metro Transit operator, Mark Mclaughlin was shot while driving his coach over the aurora bridge, the coach veered off the bridge and crashed onto the ground. His badge was 2106, and coach 2106 (CTA 7302) was repainted in the "Sunrise" Scheme shortly before his service. Many coaches had wreath's on them the day of the services, 2113 no exception.

I like the grey/brown stripes livery. The latest colors really dont grab my attention.