Metra Electric/South Shore Chicago Boardings

[Mike Payne]

http://www.chicagotr...a-hike-20110920,0,6507555.story

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-cta-mayor-emanuel-0921-20110921,0,4519573.story

I wonder if Senators Durbin and Kirk would be interested in how Metra (and CTA) are wasting Millions of dollars (by competing with each other), and are now asking for Fare Increases?

I shall soon find out.

[Busjack]

I wonder if Senators Durbin and Kirk would be interested in how Metra (and CTA) are wasting Millions of dollars (by competing with each other), and are now asking for Fare Increases?

I shall soon find out.

Considering how fouled up Congress is, including that they can't pass a Transportation Bill...

...and Congress had been hands off on operating money since the mid 80s....

...and does not have jurisdiction over the service boards....

...and apparently hasn't appropriated any money for the Metra cars....

...What if they are not?

Why not ask a deity if he or she is going to strike down Claypool with 20 plagues?

BTW: You want to INCREASE Metra's expenses, but still can't say how to pay for them.

BTW: Are you going to post a link to a full accounting for the $450,000? Or have you dropped that issue?

[Sam92]

http://www.chicagotr...a-hike-20110920,0,6507555.story

http://www.chicagotr...l-0921-20110921,0,4519573.story

I wonder if Senators Durbin and Kirk would be interested in how Metra (and CTA) are wasting Millions of dollars (by competing with each other), and are now asking for Fare Increases?

I shall soon find out.

It would still be a bit of a wasteto combine them in that area anyway. The Gray Line wouldn't cover half of the areas that the Express buses do.

[trainman8119]

As I read all of this, the only thing that comes to mind endlessly is that when you deal with an "activist", be it transit, political, local, school, or whatever, the attitude is that "my way is the only right way and the heck with anyone else".

Is Metra wasting money....absolutely, daily. Who is wasting it ??? The people you claim you want to complain to. These people keep giving money for studies, and, what is needed is just basic day to day help. You can't run the system as it is now..you want to cut, eliminate jobs, reduce benefits, etc. But it is okay for a CEO to make $250,000 a year and employ consultants at $500,000 a year (and have them have the gall to say they aren't billing you for meals...gee thanks !). You can't run the system as it is now, but you want more here or more there. If things ever get straightened out (which I doubt), then and only then would it be acceptable to add.

Transportation is a service, just like police, fire, city services. It should be treated as such. There is no competition (or there should be none). Make a route, run a bus. If people ride, great, if they don't cut it. No need to advertise and waste money that way. How much is spent on that? It's all silly. How much is spent on politial lobbying ? How much is spent on consultants ? Maybe if proper people were put in position in the first place, you wouldn't need to spend so much on consultants.

Again, life in general, not just local transit, is a cluster*@$%@. Priorities are definitely screwed up...and yet the powers that be have too much ego to do anything about it.

[Busjack]

As I read all of this, the only thing that comes to mind endlessly is that when you deal with an "activist", be it transit, political, local, school, or whatever, the attitude is that "my way is the only right way and the heck with anyone else".

Is Metra wasting money....absolutely, daily. Who is wasting it ??? The people you claim you want to complain to. These people keep giving money for studies, and, what is needed is just basic day to day help. ...

Again, life in general, not just local transit, is a cluster*@$%@. Priorities are definitely screwed up...and yet the powers that be have too much ego to do anything about it.

Too bad that I can't click the +1 button about 2,136 times for this one.

In fact, I came to the same conclusion today when someone posted on the CTA Tattler about "why are they cleaning Jarvis instead of closing it," and I said it was to placate Joe Moore, and transit today is merely about ego.

Also, in the Durbin and Kirk case, all the article is is that they sent a letter, and Metra said it would placate them: "(Clifford) looks forward to working with them and explaining everything in regard to the budget and any other questions that have [they didn't even finish the sentence]." Metra probably thinks that if it makes a sufficient case, Congress is going to do something to help them, but Congress won't. And Mike somehow thinks that he was mentioned in the article or it gave him an opening.

Since you mention activists--maybe someone should do for Mike want Pace did for Adam Kerman, and put him on an advisory board. We haven't heard much from the Citizens' Transit Authority since then. Maybe Mike will think that whoever appoints the board will listen to him, since he has only received blowback here. I'm also quite sure that Emanuel, Claypool, Durbin, Kirk, Alex Clifford, Carole Doris, the race discrimination people at DOT, the Illinois Executive Inspector General, and even Elaine Nekritz don't read this or the CTA Tattler, and thus I don't see why anyone thinks this is a way to get the activists' message to them. At least I admitted that I don't have influence, and can only point out the follies of others.

How much is spent on politial lobbying ?

I'm glad you brought this up. In this case, the Pace Awarded Bids page says that they awarded $1.2 million in contracts for political lobbying, including to an ex-State Legislator from Romeoville. Most of it went to a state legislative consulting group, presumably to get more off the top for paratransit at the expense of other services. That $1.2 million would have purchased 4 buses, but we the taxpayers or riders get nothing for it.

[Mike Payne]

WOW, I am sincerely sorry for trying to create Jobs and Economic Development for my Community.

You all act like I am trying to set up a High Volume Agency to Molest Children - What an Asshole I am.

[Sam92]

WOW, I am sincerely sorry for trying to create Jobs and Economic Development for my Community.

You all act like I am trying to set up a High Volume Agency to Molest Children - What an Asshole I am.

We aren't saying that you are an asshole. We are just saying that there are the basic things that must be fixed first and that the existing system needs to actually be fixed and run by qualified people before we can even begin to think about expanding or adding service. Like everyone has said the problems in the proposed Gray Line area are happened across the ENTIRE system. I'd say our service is pretty great compared to other areas such as the people who lost the X49 and X9. We need to focus more on getting service that is actually adequate with people who actually know how to run a system such as CTA instead of people who beat around the bush and waste precious money and resources on half-asses projects (Dan Ryan, Cermak etc.) , such as Claypool and the others. THEN we can look to possibilties such as a Gray Line and other things.

[Mike Payne]

We aren't saying that you are an asshole. We are just saying that there are the basic things that must be fixed first and that the existing system needs to actually be fixed and run by qualified people before we can even begin to think about expanding or adding service. Like everyone has said the problems in the proposed Gray Line area are happened across the ENTIRE system. I'd say our service is pretty great compared to other areas such as the people who lost the X49 and X9. We need to focus more on getting service that is actually adequate with people who actually know how to run a system such as CTA instead of people who beat around the bush and waste precious money and resources on half-asses projects (Dan Ryan, Cermak etc.) , such as Claypool and the others. THEN we can look to possibilties such as a Gray Line and other things.

I've lived in the Chicago area for 62 years, and that wishful day of "people who actually know how to run a system" will actually N E V E R come - it's ALL ABOUT POLITICS.

Metra wants to raise the fare from Roseland to Downtown from about $3.50 to about $4.75 - effectively eliminating that Transit option from that poor community, as well as all the communities North of there.

And the Drastic Reduction in Ridership SURE to follow will of course inevitably lead to yet another fare increase/service cut cycle.

I for one have no interest in leaving important Transit funding and prioritizing decisions to the same people who bought us the wildly successful THREE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLAR Block 37 SuperStation that serves the popular Airport Xpress (not Metra - but part of the same overall Non-Regional planning problem).

[Mike Payne]

Considering how fouled up Congress is, including that they can't pass a Transportation Bill...

...and Congress had been hands off on operating money since the mid 80s....

...and does not have jurisdiction over the service boards....

...and apparently hasn't appropriated any money for the Metra cars....

...What if they are not?

Why not ask a deity if he or she is going to strike down Claypool with 20 plagues?

BTW: You want to INCREASE Metra's expenses, but still can't say how to pay for them.

BTW: Are you going to post a link to a full accounting for the $450,000? Or have you dropped that issue?

http://metrarail.com...TBLJan2011..pdf

The new Metra Electric EMU's are already purchased, and will be manufactured in Rochelle, IL creating lots of New Jobs.

Coincidentally (for economic reasons) - half of them will be built without washrooms (vacant washroom bay could be

equipped with stanchions as a standee area).

http://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/cdot/SouthLakefront_factsheet.pdf

I don't know if you would consider this "accounting", but on the last page of the attached .pdf is a list of the Corridor Study Consultants, I have known some of these people for many years - and I am QUITE satisfied with the data and information they are compiling (MUCH more and better than I could do myself - well worth the $450,000); and where their final conclusions MAY lead to (and I Emphasize and Capitalize "M A Y") in early 2012.

I am not fooling myself, I am one small Brown Yard Ant - against several large Herds of Elephants

[Mike Payne]

As I read all of this, the only thing that comes to mind endlessly is that when you deal with an "activist", be it transit, political, local, school, or whatever, the attitude is that "my way is the only right way and the heck with anyone else".

Yes I am an obsessed "activist", the big problem I have is not "my way is the only way........"

As I asked here earlier - "is their any other plan to improve PT to Woodlawn, Hyde Park, Oakland/Kenwood, etc..."

I said "post a link to it here" - nobody posted anything; so like they say "if nobody else will do it - I will"

And like is posted in the Gas Station where I work (I love this): "I can explain it TO you - but I can't understand it FOR you"

[Busjack]

I've lived in the Chicago area for 62 years, and that wishful day of "people who actually know how to run a system" will actually N E V E R come - it's ALL ABOUT POLITICS.

...

I for one have no interest in leaving important Transit funding and prioritizing decisions to the same people who bought us the wildly successful THREE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLAR Block 37 SuperStation that serves the popular Airport Xpress (not Metra - but part of the same overall Non-Regional planning problem).

Put this and the last sentence of the next quote together...trainman is right. You are having a breakdown, when you know darn well that your name isn't Rahm Emanuel, and Rahm put a political hack in charge of the CTA, and it is going to be up to Rahm to get anything done. Yet you have no problem with the same city government enriching consultants--just the consultants you like.

http://www.cityofchi...t_factsheet.pdf

I don't know if you would consider this "accounting", but on the last page of the attached .pdf is a list of the Corridor Study Consultants, I have known some of these people for many years - and I am QUITE satisfied with the data and information they are compiling (MUCH more and better than I could do myself - well worth the $450,000); and where their final conclusions MAY lead to (and I Emphasize and Capitalize "M A Y") in early 2012.

I am not fooling myself, I am one small Brown Yard Ant - against several large Herds of Elephants

This is the first thing in about a week that you posted that was MILDLY RESPONSIVE to a comment made here.Of course, this is not an audit. I could Google these people, but it is clear that $450,000 is going to consultants, including a national one (I don't see any difference between Cambridge and AECOM). There are also traffic planning and architectural consultants--what does that have to do with the Gray Line?

You say the consultants are getting you the numbers, but any time I ask you about:

• Ridership numbers and trends
  
• Survey of ridership habits and destinations
• Plans for transit oriented development
  
• Design for transfer stations--and data on whether anyone would use them
• Additional operating cost to Metra
• What economic development would occur
• Why Hyde Parkers have abandoned the ME for the 2, 6, and X28 buses (you've been here 62 years, you must know the trends)
• Any way to finance this
  

you have nothing, just posts about Governor Feeble's deal with a train car assembler.* If you think you are getting our money's worth from the consultants, maybe you would demand that they show up at the Church of No-L and tell you what the numbers are.

Suppose how you would feel if I highjacked that study and demanded every day that they impose the automobile traffic improvements I want in that corridor--including northbound entrances and exits on Lake Shore Drive at 51st and 55th, and certainly moving the 47th ones to the right side of the road (it is damn dangerous with all the buses merging from the left), and getting rid of all the stinking red light cameras on Stony Island, including the one hovering over the left turn lane at Marquette. And then went bipolar and said on alternate days that the rest of us are jerks for not accepting my agenda. And then getting into trivia whether the Hyde Park exit should have a pathmarker to The Obama Residence or KAM Isaiah Israel Temple. Now, just substitute Metra Electric, fake names for the cars, and what sticker you want to put on them, and consider whether your use of bandwidth is getting you anywhere except making enemies.

If you aren't going to read what I write and consider it, at least read what trainman wrote.

Finally, yes they are probably going to end train service in Roseland. You have still not said what community you represent, but it appears that the passengers have already abandoned the Blue Island branch. If they aren't willing to pay the Zone D fare, why should the taxpayers subsidize them to get on the ME for CTA fares? Even if there are any that are going downtown?

Think before you post again. I beg you.

___________

*You missed my point that if the U.S. Senate doesn't care enough to appropriate federal money for capital improvements to Metra, the Senators sure aren't going to care about the Gray Line.

[Sam92]

You say the consultants are getting you the numbers, but any time I ask you about:

• Why Hyde Parkers have abandoned the ME for the 2, 6, and X28 buses (you've been here 62 years, you must know the trends)

I'm with Jack on this. Also, the many things you claim is wrong with the area is happening across the ENTIRE SYSTEM. And if you can't answer the question above, riders abandoned the ME for the express because of the fare crisis with that line and the over crowding on the 6 helped bring other routes (14 South Lakeshore Express for example). Technically speaking, the downfall of that line spurred many CTA improvements in this area. Can't say if the ME was successful before that cause I haven't lived that long (only 18 years old). I can only go by what such as Busjack and the others have experienced. I can offer suggestions and feedback though based on what's hapening now

[Busjack]

...And if you can't answer the question above, riders abandoned the ME for the express because of the fare crisis with that line and the over crowding on the 6 helped bring other routes (14 South Lakeshore Express for example). Technically speaking, the downfall of that line spurred many CTA improvements in this area. Can't say if the ME was successful before that cause I haven't lived that long (only 18 years old). I can only go by what such as Busjack and the others have experienced. ...

I'll give you a couple of things that happened in the 70s. I don't know how relevant they are to the situation today, but maybe they have to do with the beginning of the slide.

• The Illinois Central petitioned the Interstate Commerce Commission to raise fares about 125%, which meant on a one-way from Hyde Park would go from about 40 cents to $1.00. Then the RTA took over funding responsibility (1974), and -- you guessed it -- raised the fare to $1.00. Of course, CTA fares skyrocketed in the late 80s, so Metra's fare became competitive again.
• The Illinois Central also, at about the same time, instituted the "zone train" system we still have today, i.e. South Chicago trains make all stops on the mainline, Blue Island trains made mainline stops from 63rd to Kensington, and real mainline trains only stopped at 63rd and Kensington to pick up transfers from the others, before making stops in the south suburbs. Rush hour zones were about as they are today. You'll note the distinction that the transfer point was 63rd, and Hyde Parkers were writing letters to the editor about "why does a station with nobody get three trains an hour and we get only one?" [That was when landlords were starting to torch Woodlawn.] IC gave the usual response that the transfer point has to be as far south as possible (but apparently not at 67th, which doesn't have dual platforms), but soon thereafter moved it to 59th, and more recently, after the station reconstruction, to 57th. In addition, the local train stopped at 18th, 23rd, 27th and 47th, so the ride became much slower, even though there was minimal passenger traffic at those stations.

One must also consider that CTA bus service to downtown was fairly local at the time, primarily 1 Drexel Hyde Park, which ran through the Michael Reese and Lake Meadows area (after 1973), and 5 Jeffery, which ran via Michigan/Indiana-43rd-Drexel. Jeffery Express service (forerunner of the current 6) ran only rush hour, although there was some Saturday service. Pretty much most of that "boulevard system" operation was since dismantled.

The other alternative was to take the 55 bus to the L at Prairie or Dan Ryan (after 1969) rapid transit. I did that some times, but the problem there was that while waiting for the bus at those stations, someone would always hassle you for bus fare.

However, at that time, if someone had told me that people would use what is now the 15 bus to go to 51-Green Line and 47-Red Line, and the U of C would have a (short lived) 174 bus from 57th to Garfield Green and Red Lines, I would have said they were nuts. Of course, since the 55 bus was still around, they were in the 174 case.

[Sam92]

I'll give you a couple of things that happened in the 70s. I don't know how relevant they are to the situation today, but maybe they have to do with the beginning of the slide.

• The Illinois Central petitioned the Interstate Commerce Commission to raise fares about 125%, which meant on a one-way from Hyde Park would go from about 40 cents to $1.00. Then the RTA took over funding responsibility (1974), and -- you guessed it -- raised the fare to $1.00. Of course, CTA fares skyrocketed in the late 80s, so Metra's fare became competitive again.
• The Illinois Central also, at about the same time, instituted the "zone train" system we still have today, i.e. South Chicago trains make all stops on the mainline, Blue Island trains made mainline stops from 63rd to Kensington, and real mainline trains only stopped at 63rd and Kensington to pick up transfers from the others, before making stops in the south suburbs. Rush hour zones were about as they are today. You'll note the distinction that the transfer point was 63rd, and Hyde Parkers were writing letters to the editor about "why does a station with nobody get three trains an hour and we get only one?" [That was when landlords were starting to torch Woodlawn.] IC gave the usual response that the transfer point has to be as far south as possible (but apparently not at 67th, which doesn't have dual platforms), but soon thereafter moved it to 59th, and more recently, after the station reconstruction, to 57th. In addition, the local train stopped at 18th, 23rd, 27th and 47th, so the ride became much slower, even though there was minimal passenger traffic at those stations.

One must also consider that CTA bus service to downtown was fairly local at the time, primarily 1 Drexel Hyde Park, which ran through the Michael Reese and Lake Meadows area (after 1973), and 5 Jeffery, which ran via Michigan/Indiana-43rd-Drexel. Jeffery Express service (forerunner of the current 6) ran only rush hour, although there was some Saturday service. Pretty much most of that "boulevard system" operation was since dismantled.

The other alternative was to take the 55 bus to the L at Prairie or Dan Ryan (after 1969) rapid transit. I did that some times, but the problem there was that while waiting for the bus at those stations, someone would always hassle you for bus fare.

However, at that time, if someone had told me that people would use what is now the 15 bus to go to 51-Green Line and 47-Red Line, and the U of C would have a (short lived) 174 bus from 57th to Garfield Green and Red Lines, I would have said they were nuts. Of course, since the 55 bus was still around, they were in the 174 case.

I sorta remember my uncle mentioning the whole competition between Metra and CTA in the '80s. I remember when he worked on Madison, he eventually ditched the Metra Rock Island and ME branches in favor of the 14 when he came from the the suburbs on weekdays but had to drive on weekends (that was about a year or two before the 14 switched with the 6 in the 2003 changes). I myself have experimented with taking the 14, X28 and Metra after the last year or two when the Dan Ryan Red Line slow zones returned after the rebuilding and find that the Expresses seem to give more than the ME offered like one-seat rides. Oh and I do realize that I was wrong about the Dan Ryan over on the CTA-Tattler blog

[dp1]

The Electric District is an "L" in denial. compared to other lines in the Metra system, the Electric District has the most in-city stops. You get the least bang for your money on that service. After 7pm and all day Sunday/Holidays, mainline electric trains make every stop, which is just a unnecessary crawl into the city. One weekday night, I was in the south suburbs and saw a two-car electric train. This for a line that gets strong ridership when the trains skip the flag stops between 111th and 59th.

With all due respect to Mike Payne, I don't see the Gray Line coming either, but for different reasons. I believe that the far south side and south lake front deserve "L" service, the express bus services bear this out. I wrote a plan to CTA for the Green Line to be extended to 93rd street via the South Chicago right of way and a subway connecting both tracks via 71st and South Chicago, which would do away with the elevated tracks east on 63rd street. Needless to say, CTA didn't like my idea either.

I think "L" service on the electric district right of way can work, but I think the key is being able to link that line to the rest of the "L" system downtown. Through it's actions with the express bus service, it looks as if CTA is not interested in an stand-alone "L" route, which is what the Gray Line would be. It has been more cost effective to operate the current express bus format, with the exception of the x28 where the local and express do not have separate purposes. It would be nice to see the 28 extended to the 47th Green Line and the x28 renumbered and shifted to peak direction service in my opinion, but that is a different post entirely.

[Mike Payne]

The Rail Line we are discussing (the Metra Electric District) is Owned, Operated, and Controlled (for better or worse) by a Suburban Agency (Metra) whose Officials are appointed by Suburban Municipalities (Wheaton, Barrington, Crystal Lake, Kenilworth, Palos Heights, etc,. etc,. etc.......); they control facilities operating through various South Side Communities of diverse incomes and ethnic populations (who have N O control whatsoever over these rail facilities running right through the middle of our Living Room; although this is through evolution - not design).

That's the Ying, on the Yang - N O B O D Y in ANY Chicago Community has ANY TYPE of ANY FORM of Influence over ANYTHING happening in Wheaton, Barrington, Crystal Lake, Kenilworth, Palos Heights, etc,. etc,. etc...... This is N O T a Balanced Scale.

Mr. Jeffrey Ladd (former Metra Head) expessed Metra's appearent outlook in November of 2003: "When commuters complained about the STAR Line connecting a mostly affluent territory between O'Hare International Airport, the western suburbs and Joliet, Jeff Ladd, CEO of Metra, derisively said Metra was "not a social service welfare agency" concerned with unemployment issues and access to jobs":

http://www.hydepark....atransitlet.htm This statement/event is where a lot of my "F U C K you Metra" (and CTA) attitude comes from.

Also: Busjack stated: "Finally, yes they are probably going to end train service in Roseland". - OH NO "THEY" EFFIN' WON'T

These Organizations will V E R Y shortly be implementing a Petition Drive, and Marching with it to City Hall, and Metra and RTA Headquarters (This was SOUL's idea - not mine; but I will V E R Y enthusiastically lead it):

The CTA Gray Line Project: http://bit.ly/GrayLineInfo

Hyde Park Kenwood Community Conference: http://www.hydepark....t/transit08.htm

Southsiders Organized for Unity and Liberation: http://www.soulinchi...-gold-line.html

South East Chicago Commission: http://secc-chicago.org/

N O N E of them believe for an instant that "CTA bus service to the area is "adequate" - BECAUSE THEY LIVE THERE, and they KNOW the "bus service" is SHYT because they EXPERIENCE IT every day (just like I did when I lived there).

I guess if the water coming out of my faucet is Yellowish Brown, with lots of various large and small unidentifiable particles in it - and YOU tell me "It's all OK"; that should be good enough for ME, and I should drink it and be Happy - Right??

[Mike Payne]

This is the first thing in about a week that you posted that was MILDLY RESPONSIVE to a comment made here.Of course, this is not an audit. I could Google these people, but it is clear that $450,000 is going to consultants, including a national one (I don't see any difference between Cambridge and AECOM). There are also traffic planning and architectural consultants--what does that have to do with the Gray Line?

In the meetings I had with some of the Consultants we discussed the effects of, and Street Modifications needed for Rapid Transit operations on the South Chicago Branch 71st St. and Exchange Ave. Medians, the entire Blue Island Branch, and any Station location with Parking and/or Bus Terminals (47th & Lake Park, the Ford Plant, Altgeld Gardens, 121st. & Halsted, 63rd. & Dorchester, etc., etc., etc......) = Traffic Planning.

New Stations (or Platforms) at Van Buren, Roosevelt, Soldier Field, 35th St., 60th/59th/UoC, 58th St. Metra/South Shore Platforms, the Kensington Transit Center, Altgeld Gardens, the Ford Plant, Hegewisch, Covering the MED ROW through Grant Park (possibly including Yard and Maintenance Facilities) , Improved Station Facilities at McCormick Place (possibly handling Amtrak, HSR, and S.C. Airline Shuttles connecting to CUS) = Architectural Planning.

[Busjack]

In the meetings I had with some of the Consultants we discussed the effects of, and Street Modifications needed for Rapid Transit operations on the South Chicago Branch 71st St. and Exchange Ave. Medians, the entire Blue Island Branch, and any Station location with Parking and/or Bus Terminals (47th & Lake Park, the Ford Plant, Altgeld Gardens, 121st. & Halsted, 63rd. & Dorchester, etc., etc., etc......) = Traffic Planning.

New Stations (or Platforms) at Van Buren, Roosevelt, Soldier Field, 35th St., 60th/59th/UoC, 58th St. Metra/South Shore Platforms, the Kensington Transit Center, Altgeld Gardens, the Ford Plant, Hegewisch, Covering the MED ROW through Grant Park (possibly including Yard and Maintenance Facilities) , Improved Station Facilities at McCormick Place (possibly handling Amtrak, HSR, and S.C. Airline Shuttles connecting to CUS) = Architectural Planning.

Thanks for the explanation, but it seems like they are wasting money again.

The 11th Street station is supposedly now being rebuilt by the city. The Hegewisch South Shore platforms were rebuilt to high level.

Maybe South Shore at Altgeld would be a new station, but I really question how that would be justified on a passenger load basis, and, to take this to the beginning of the topic, one really has to question making trains from Indiana into another local Chicago service.

Did anyone even consult with NICTD on this project? Or even Metra or CTA?

[Busjack]

....

With all due respect to Mike Payne, I don't see the Gray Line coming either, but for different reasons. I believe that the far south side and south lake front deserve "L" service, the express bus services bear this out. I wrote a plan to CTA for the Green Line to be extended to 93rd street via the South Chicago right of way and a subway connecting both tracks via 71st and South Chicago, which would do away with the elevated tracks east on 63rd street. Needless to say, CTA didn't like my idea either.

...

If you search somewhere in this forum, you will note that "artthouwill" suggested the South Chicago Green Line route along the railway, if sufficient separation was available from the freight tracks, and I said it wouldn't have been even as difficult as he thought, as the old 61st/63rd yards at one time connected with those railroads, and it seemed to need only a short bridge to do so again.

However, since transfer stations are an issue here, I said that somehow someone would have to figure out how to place a bus terminal at 79/Stony/South Chicago, for instance, which is already a traffic nightmare.

A 71st-Exchange subway would never happen, considering the cost of digging out the existing Metra tracks, and not having service for maybe 10 years. However, if the alternative is that Metra is going to abandon service, anyway, ....

In any event, the city (especially Rahm) seems only interested in the Red Line, and while it is in fantasyland in thinking about a Broadway subway, I find it significant that so far the south extension is basically along the CN right of way (not that they have obtained permission from CN to use it), instead of a Halsted or Michigan subway, which I think would do a heck of a lot more for economic development.

Anyway, neither your nor Mike's name is Rahm, I presume.

[Mike Payne]

Thanks for the explanation, but it seems like they are wasting money again.

The 11th Street station is supposedly now being rebuilt by the city. The Hegewisch South Shore platforms were rebuilt to high level.

Maybe South Shore at Altgeld would be a new station, but I really question how that would be justified on a passenger load basis, and, to take this to the beginning of the topic, one really has to question making trains from Indiana into another local Chicago service.

Did anyone even consult with NICTD on this project? Or even Metra or CTA?

You misunderstand:

The 11th St. Station serves Metra and NICTD trains - a new (barrier controlled) Center Platform would be needed for Gray Line Trains (perhaps extending South from Roosevelt to McFetridge to serve the Field Museum and Museum Campus): http://g.co/maps/bnh3d

The Kensington & Eastern (the Rail Line that takes the NICTD from Kensington to the Indiana State Line - is Wholly Owned by Metra - NICTD is a tenant).

What question is there about "passengers loads" at Altgeld Gardens, when that is CTA's stated main reason for the Red Line Extension. (btw - Does anyone know why Altgeld Gardens is where it is?)

Indiana Trains would NOT be carrying local Chicago passengers (unless they wanted to pay unsubsidized NICTD fares) as there would be a new Gray Line Hegewisch Shuttle serving Kensington, Altgeld Gardens, the Ford plant, and terminating (at new barrier controlled CTA Platforms) at Hegewisch.

NICTD is a tenant, and would have to go along with whatever Metra decided - besides, it would provide much more room for NICTD Indiana passengers by not having to carry any Metra subsidized Illinois passengers.

Hegewisch passengers could choose between CTA and NICTD (just like in Evanston at Davis and Main, Oak Park Harlem/Marion, Jefferson Park, Irving Park, and 35th/DanRyan)

This was all THOROUGHLY discussed at the recent 2 hour meeting Harvey Kahler and I had with Metra's Planning Dept.

[Mike Payne]

If you search somewhere in this forum, you will note that "artthouwill" suggested the South Chicago Green Line route along the railway, if sufficient separation was available from the freight tracks, and I said it wouldn't have been even as difficult as he thought, as the old 61st/63rd yards at one time connected with those railroads, and it seemed to need only a short bridge to do so again.

However, since transfer stations are an issue here, I said that somehow someone would have to figure out how to place a bus terminal at 79/Stony/South Chicago, for instance, which is already a traffic nightmare.

A 71st-Exchange subway would never happen, considering the cost of digging out the existing Metra tracks, and not having service for maybe 10 years. However, if the alternative is that Metra is going to abandon service, anyway, ....

In any event, the city (especially Rahm) seems only interested in the Red Line, and while it is in fantasyland in thinking about a Broadway subway, I find it significant that so far the south extension is basically along the CN right of way (not that they have obtained permission from CN to use it), instead of a Halsted or Michigan subway, which I think would do a heck of a lot more for economic development.

Anyway, neither your nor Mike's name is Rahm, I presume.

ALL of the plans everybody else seems to propose require NEW construction (at approx. $200 Million PER EACH MILE for "Heavy Rail") - the minimal $200 Million TOTAL COST of the 25 mile Gray Line System is because it uses 95% existing and operating facilities).

And besides - CTA themselves announced at the recent Red Line Extension Open House that it might be "MANY" years after 2016 before the RLE comes into operation (if ever) - or am I wrong??.

[Busjack]

You misunderstand:

The 11th St. Station serves Metra and NICTD trains - a new (barrier controlled) Center Platform would be needed for Gray Line Trains (perhaps extending South from Roosevelt to McFetridge to serve the Field Museum and Museum Campus): http://g.co/maps/bnh3d

...

What question is there about "passengers loads" at Altgeld Gardens, when that is CTA's stated main reason for the Red Line Extension. (btw - Does anyone know why Altgeld Gardens is where it is?)

Indiana Trains would NOT be carrying local Chicago passengers (unless they wanted to pay unsubsidized NICTD fares) as there would be a new Gray Line Hegewisch Shuttle serving Kensington, Altgeld Gardens, the Ford plant, and terminating (at new barrier controlled CTA Platforms) at Hegewisch.

NICTD is a tenant, and would have to go along with whatever Metra decided - besides, it would provide much more room for NICTD Indiana passengers by not having to carry any Metra subsidized Illinois passengers....

This was all THOROUGHLY discussed at the recent 2 hour meeting Harvey Kahler and I had with Metra's Planning Dept.

However, you just COMPLETELY KILLED your original justification for the Gray Line.

As you originally explained it, this would be a fairly low capital cost way of turning around an underused asset. The numbers you gave then are now about 10 years old, but if I remember correctly, the total cost was in the neighborhood of what the consultants have now sucked out of the RTA.

The cost now skyrockets because from what you say about 11th, and I guess also about 58th, a new station would have to be built at each place the ME mainline and SS trains now stop, to enforce fare separation. SS is apparently now bypassing Kensington northbound in the rush hour, and apparently either the ME mainline would also have to do so, or you would have to build another Kensington station, too.

In the meantime, comparatively new 11th and 57th stations would be turned over to the CTA, I guess, because Metra couldn't use the local fare platforms for mainline and SS trains.

While you may have the SS track between State Line and Kensington, to run the shuttle you would need more cars, plus have to go through the bottleneck that the SS is building a bypass to avoid.* If the SS is having interference problems with CN freights, the shuttle will too.

Yes, I know where Altgeld Gardens is, it is at 130th west of the Calumet Expressway--and that's what I know it as, back to about 1959. And, if you ask me, I only think that the Red Line extension is feasible only to 115th, at least under the proposed routing, although maybe construction at level to 130th might not be that expensive. However, in any event, after about 5 years, those consultants are no where close to having a design or cost estimate, either.

Besides--Altgeld Gardens is not the CTA's stated reason for the Red Line extension--the stated reason is congestion at the 95th terminal and all the rerouting of crosstown buses running on from 103rd to 119th needed to reach it. Altgeld Gardens could never justify that kind of project.

For that matter, the reason that the X99 Ford Suppliers' Campus Express might not have worked is that people in the Ford Plant might feel an obligation to buy Fords. At least after working there a year or two. Also, demographically and economically speaking, that area is more linked to Indiana than Chicago. Believe me, I lived around there, too.

Did the Metra guy tell you anything other than--if someone else pays for it, we'll consider it?

The only economic development that seems to be occurring is welfare for consultants and architects whose private sector opportunities have dried up.

For that matter, the RTA has given all sorts of grants for Community Planning and Subregional Corridor Planning. I don't know where RTA gets that money to give, but the only ones I see a chance of being implemented are the Milwaukee Ave.-Niles TSP project, and maybe one Yellow Line station in Evanston. On the other hand, the I355 express bus plan was tried and failed in 4 months. I don't know how many Panera Breads were built as a result of all the Community Planning grants.

So, so far, nothing more than a waste of someone's tax money has been shown. However, that's typical for the RTA.

_______

*Apparently with very minimal cooperation from CN, which is typical.

[Mike Payne]

However, you just COMPLETELY KILLED your original justification for the Gray Line.

That is YOUR OPINION Busjack - not a "fact".

Hundreds of people have told me personally that my idea is the best thing since sliced bread -

should I listen to hundreds of them - or you Jack???

[Mike Payne]

In the meantime, comparatively new 11th and 57th stations would be turned over to the CTA, I guess, because Metra couldn't use the local fare platforms for mainline and SS trains.

What is with you Jack??? Did you read this or miss it??? >> "The 11th St. Station serves Metra and NICTD trains - a new (barrier controlled) Center Platform would be needed for Gray Line Trains (perhaps extending South from Roosevelt to McFetridge to serve the Field Museum and Museum Campus)": http://g.co/maps/bnh3d

IT SAYS - "a new (barrier controlled) Center Platform would be needed for Gray Line Trains".

Where did you get "comparatively new 11th St. station would be turned over to CTA"??

You are correct in that 55/56/57th St. would become a CTA station because as I've already stated -

new (open access) platforms would be built for Metra/NICTD between 59th and 57th to serve

the UoC and the MS&I.

While you may have the SS track between State Line and Kensington, to run the shuttle you would need more cars, plus have to go through the bottleneck that the SS is building a bypass to avoid.* If the SS is having interference problems with CN freights, the shuttle will too.

This situation has to be worked out.

Yes, I know where Altgeld Gardens is, it is at 130th west of the Calumet Expressway--and that's what I know it as, back to about 1959.

Altgeld Gardens was created in 1945 as a place where silly-assed Black American Soldiers returning from World War II after fighting for a country that WASN'T their's - could live segregated and removed as ph ucking far as the builders could find from ph ucking civilization (there was NO Ford Expressway in 1945): http://en.wikipedia....Altgeld_Gardens,_Chicago

Besides--Altgeld Gardens is not the CTA's stated reason for the Red Line extension--the stated reason is congestion at the 95th terminal and all the rerouting of crosstown buses running on from 103rd to 119th needed to reach it. Altgeld Gardens could never justify that kind of project.

Did the Metra guy tell you anything other than--if someone else pays for it, we'll consider it?

Yes, he told me (his own opinion) don't ever stop what I'm doing.

[Busjack]

What is with you Jack??? Did you read this or miss it??? >> "The 11th St. Station serves Metra and NICTD trains - a new (barrier controlled) Center Platform would be needed for Gray Line Trains (perhaps extending South from Roosevelt to McFetridge to serve the Field Museum and Museum Campus)": http://g.co/maps/bnh3d

IT SAYS - "a new (barrier controlled) Center Platform would be needed for Gray Line Trains".

Where did you get "comparatively new 11th St. station would be turned over to CTA"??

Just like your obsession on who gets to clean out the fare machine, this doesn't make any difference. Somebody is going to have to pay to build a new station.

.....

This situation has to be worked out.

Plus the problem of locals on the Vrdolyak Line blocking Indiana trains. Some consultant expanded the scope and made all sorts of new problems.

Altgeld Gardens was created as a place where silly-assed Black American Soldiers returning from World War II after fighting for a country that WASN'T their's - could live segregated and removed as ph ucking far as the builders could find from ph ucking civilization (there was NO Ford Expressway in 1945): http://en.wikipedia....Altgeld_Gardens,_Chicago

Can't stay away from the race card, including a 65+ year old one, can you?

I suppose you are doing the South Shore area for the benefit of all the white people who took advantage of restrictive covenants to keep Blacks out until the 60s. Also, they were selling Negro Insurance to Calumet City homeowners in the 80s, so I suppose that the Vrdolyak line should be extended there, since the 355 bus was cut back.

How many minority contractors have been hired by the consultants hired by the city to suck up $450,000?

Besides, I read somewhere that some unknown community organizer named Barack Obama empowered the people of Altgeld Gardens, and we can move on.

Wikipedia is not a source.

"...silly-assed Black American Soldiers..." That's nice, you are the first person I know to have slurred that unit. Congratulations.

What relevance some 65+ year old grudge has to the point I next made, and I repeat below, is beyond me.

See above

Yes, he told me (his own opinion) don't ever stop what I'm doing.

However, he threw a bone to your ego. He didn't say he found a funding source, and he didn't say that Metra was going to do anything about it.

Since this is all about your ego, and not coming up with a practical plan, I suppose that is sufficient, especially for anyone who would throw Black soldiers under the proverbial "Shoreliner."