Older Destination Sign and Holder

[Chicago.trains]

I recently purchased one of the roller signs from the IRM's website (a full one from before the whole North-South change) and was wondering what the size of the mechanism that held it would have been as I want to display the roller curtain in its "native" environment. Thanks in advance for your answers.

[ryanbytes]

I recently purchased one of the roller signs from the IRM's website (a full one from before the whole North-South change) and was wondering what the size of the mechanism that held it would have been as I want to display the roller curtain in its "native" environment. Thanks in advance for your answers.

Will it fit in the current signs? I can hop on a train and take a look at the front facing sign mechanism and let you know who the manufacturer is. You could probably get more info from them.

[Chicago.trains]

I was looking at the size, and it appears that the sign I have is a bit wider than the current ones, and the display may have been a bit taller to accomodate the amount and size of text. But there is a good chance that the CTA would have stuck with the same manufacturer for both casings/mechanisms. Thanks for your help.

By the way, I THINK that when I had measured it it was 22" wide, and about 6-10" in height (I don't know how much space would have been left above/below the text)

I attatched a picture of the bottom 2 destinations, but there isn't a good size ref.

[Busjack]

The one you have must be real old (i.e. pre 1996), since since then Skokie has been yellow.

The sign reading would be a bit taller than the opening, since each wrapped half way around the roller.

The size of the window in front of the sign would be a bit smaller than the size of the sign. On the other hand, if you are asking for the size of the sign box, it would differ,depending on whether it was on the front or spanned a side window, and the width of that window. Since the 2200s had blinker doors, their side windows were a bit wider.

[Chicago.trains]

The one you have must be real old (i.e. pre 1996), since since then Skokie has been yellow.

The sign reading would be a bit taller than the opening, since each wrapped half way around the roller.

The size of the window in front of the sign would be a bit smaller than the size of the sign. On the other hand, if you are asking for the size of the sign box, it would differ,depending on whether it was on the front or spanned a side window, and the width of that window. Since the 2200s had blinker doors, their side windows were a bit wider.

Yeah, it is a bit older... It's got the Howard/Englewood/Jackson Park signs and whatnot. If you want to see the whole thing, go to http://www2.irm.org/about/ctasigns.html and look on the last page, #RS0007

I would think that if it is as wide as it seems, it probably is a side sign, but I'm not sure. I'll contact the IRM and see if I can get a definitive answer.

Thanks everyone for your help. At least I've narrowed

[Busjack]

Yeah, it is a bit older... It's got the Howard/Englewood/Jackson Park signs and whatnot. If you want to see the whole thing, go to http://www2.irm.org/...t/ctasigns.html and look on the last page, #RS0007

That looks like it. In that there are 21 readings on it, and it appears that the electrically operated sign rollers are limited to 15 (see the chart in this post), one would deduce that it goes back to the PCCs, which had manually cranked signs. Thus, not only does it go before the 1993 reconfiguration (south side ends of the now Green and Red Lines swapped), but since it has readings for Congress-Milwaukee instead Congress-O'Hare (compare RS0008), it probably goes back to before 1984, maybe to about 1977.

Of course, while the windows in the sign box would again be a bit smaller than the reading, the width of the sign box would be much narrower, because the 6000 series PCCs had sliding windows, instead of the "picture windows" in the series starting with 2000. You might get an idea from Chicago-L.org's 6000s Gallery. Since the cars themselves were 48 feet long, my estimate is that each window was about 3 feet wide.

I don't believe that there was any difference between the front and side roll signs, and, of course, in the vast majority of the cars, the front roll sign was in the front window, not over the cab door.

In that this sign is "ancient" compared to most of the other stuff IRM is selling (the station signs were fairly recently removed), they must have a lot of them to figure that the $50 each is worth more than retaining a sample.

[ryanbytes]

The current sign manufacturer is Teleweld. Maybe they had a hand in the older equipment as well?

[Chicago.trains]

Well, thanks for the great answers, I didn't pay too much attention to the fact it was Milwaukee not O'Hare, but I had considered it to be perhaps 6000s. Also thanks for the Teleweld tip.

[Chicago.trains]

That looks like it. In that there are 21 readings on it, and it appears that the electrically operated sign rollers are limited to 15 (see the chart in this post), one would deduce that it goes back to the PCCs, which had manually cranked signs. Thus, not only does it go before the 1993 reconfiguration (south side ends of the now Green and Red Lines swapped), but since it has readings for Congress-Milwaukee instead Congress-O'Hare (compare RS0008), it probably goes back to before 1984, maybe to about 1977.

Of course, while the windows in the sign box would again be a bit smaller than the reading, the width of the sign box would be much narrower, because the 6000 series PCCs had sliding windows, instead of the "picture windows" in the series starting with 2000. You might get an idea from Chicago-L.org's 6000s Gallery. Since the cars themselves were 48 feet long, my estimate is that each window was about 3 feet wide.

I don't believe that there was any difference between the front and side roll signs, and, of course, in the vast majority of the cars, the front roll sign was in the front window, not over the cab door.

In that this sign is "ancient" compared to most of the other stuff IRM is selling (the station signs were fairly recently removed), they must have a lot of them to figure that the $50 each is worth more than retaining a sample.

Also, I was looking at chicago-l.org and found out that the IRM has a set of 6000s, so they have the signs from those cars, and may have kept some others for backup. But yeah, its a nice thing that one could so easily get CTA stuff from the IRM, since you used to have to trawl eBay and other places, and before that hope you knew someone who worked for the CTA.

[Busjack]

Also, I was looking at chicago-l.org and found out that the IRM has a set of 6000s, so they have the signs from those cars, and may have kept some others for backup.

According to IRM's roster, they have 6 cars (3 sets). The only one that has a picture with a sign is LAKE, but 6000s basically never ran there (it went from 4000s to 2000s when the tracks were put on embankment). 6655, 6656 would be Congress-Douglas-Milwaukee cars, but only blank readings are shown.

Interestingly, they classify Illinois Central cars as rapid transit, but I guess they don't have a category for commuter railroads. I probably would have shoehorned them under interurbans.

Update: 6663 in chicago-l.org's 6000s Gallery 12 probably has the sign of the type you described, which they put as 1976 on the Bicentennial cars.

[SE CTA Fan]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

If you can't find a real holder, you can always make one. I made one out of plywood and plexiglass. It is backlit with an undercounter flourescent light.

I can open it and change the destination.

[geneking7320]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

If you can't find a real holder, you can always make one. I made one out of plywood and plexiglass. It is backlit with an undercounter flourescent light.

I can open it and change the destination.

Nice work! :lol:

[Chicago.trains]

I had figured Id have to do something like that, but after looking around chicago-l.org I also found out that the one I have has the (as IRM says) "rare" Loop Shuttle reading was only used from '69-'77, which definitely narrows down the time frame its from, though I think that my sign ran on the Evanston Line, since the sign is pristine and clean except on the readings for Evanston, which is again more specific info for me.

The one thing that I haven't difinitively determined is what series train it came from, but I THINK it is 6000 series, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, SE CTA Fan, thanks for the photos, I was sketching plans to make a box, but I feel stupid since I didn't consider that it still had to be lit, since on the trains light just shone through.

Thanks y'all for all the help.

-Chicago.Trains

[pudgym29]

I had figured I'd have to do something like that, but after looking around chicago-l.org I also found out that the one I have has the (as IRM says) "rare" Loop Shuttle reading that was only used from '69-'77, which definitely narrows down the time frame it's from, though I think that my sign ran on the Evanston Line, since the sign is pristine and clean except on the readings for Evanston, which is again more specific info for me.

This pristine remark is significant. It strongly suggests this roller curtain was on a 4-50 series single-unit car, which would have four sign boxes for each car, rather than three. Perhaps IRM is semi-permanently coupling up two single unit trolley pole | pantograph cars and removing one sign box from the ends of the car which are facing each other.

I have a side sign box, complete with changing gears, from a 6000-series car somewhere on the inside back porch here. It is from late in its history, because it has been painted beige. One of these days, I'll try to find it and photograph it for here.

[Chicago.trains]

This pristine remark is significant. It strongly suggests this roller curtain was on a 4-50 series single-unit car, which would have four sign boxes for each car, rather than three. Perhaps IRM is semi-permanently coupling up two single unit trolley pole | pantograph cars and removing one sign box from the ends of the car which are facing each other.

I have a side sign box, complete with changing gears, from a 6000-series car somewhere on the inside back porch here. It is from late in its history, because it has been painted beige. One of these days, I'll try to find it and photograph it for here.

That is another intersting idea... Also, if you do happen to find your sign box, let me know the general measurements as we were previously thinking it might have been a 6000's side sign.

[Wolfman]

Sir,

What you have is a replacement "end" sign for a PCC set (6000s/1-50 series).

The "end" signs were slightly bigger than the side signage. Look and see if there is a reading for Kimball/Belmont. If ther is, it's DEFINITELY and end sign. The side signs did not have this reading. They said "Ravenswood" or "Ravenswood All Stops". They did not bear the Kimball or Belmont destinations. The side signs stuck to routes.

Your sign is most likely a 'mylar' sign (as opposed to tontine cloth or canvas). It is printed in the current cta "Helvetica typeface. These signs replaced the previous ones used from 1960 that were canvas and in a variety of block typefaces. The replacements were installed in cars as needed from 1975 onward. If your sign has "Milwaukee" readings instead of "O'Hare", you have the 1975-84 versions. A few were installed after '84 to reflect the "O'Hare" designations.

The curtain itself was actually manufactured IN-HOUSE! Yup. CTA made them up in the South Shops (not Skokie - Skokie never had a silk screen shop). Later versions were done by Transign and MultiScreen. A few wewre done by Michigan Laser Graphics.

As for the sign boxes, St. Louis Car Company had a preference for H.K. Porter and Hunter as a signbox supplier. These were the hand-crank 'ratchet-style' signs. The end signs were illuminated by a single incandescent light bulb and were protected by a spring-loaded peep hole. The side signs were simply illluminated from the car lights.

Signboxes are a little hard to come by to display your front sign. You may have to be inventive and create your own possibly using window shade rollers and a mini shop light. You can find vintage/junk signs boxes on eBay, but they can be very expensive. Unfortunately, most cars were scarpped with signboxes and curtains 20-25 years ago. The end signs were pretty unique to that series, and the current 2200 signboxes will not accomodate the sign you have.

I hope this helps.

[pudgym29]

What you have is a replacement "end" sign for a PCC set (6000s/1-50 series).

The "end" signs were slightly bigger than the side signage. Look and see if there is a reading for Kimball/Belmont. If there is, it's DEFINITELY an end sign. The side signs did not have this reading. They said "Ravenswood" or "Ravenswood All Stops". They did not bear the Kimball or Belmont destinations. The side signs stuck to routes.

Errr, no.

As somebody who rode the Ravenswood shuttle practically every week on a CTA Sunday SuperTransfer in the late 1970s, I took it upon myself to change all the roller curtains on the flat-door 6000s assigned to the "Kimball/Belmont" position. That route was present on the side signs..

However, I do concur with you that it is probably an end sign for the reason stated in my previous post in this thread.