Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[BusHunter]

The one thing that noone has thought about is what happens Monday morning when riders discover they can't purchase a transit card. Buy a ventra card right? Well the card is no good until it is registered. So where does that leave riders at the farebox? At the rail stations that will put riders in a cannot ride scenario. I believe there's no way to pay cash fares on the "l", because you could have bought a transit card before. Now that's not an option starting Monday.

[Kevin]

The one thing that noone has thought about is what happens Monday morning when riders discover they can't purchase a transit card. Buy a ventra card right? Well the card is no good until it is registered. So where does that leave riders at the farebox? At the rail stations that will put riders in a cannot ride scenario.

You don't need to register a Ventra card to use it.* Only to get back the $5 fee. CTA has a video on this process:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VhLv0ZMuqg

—

* Ventra cards that are mailed to you must be activated prior to use, just like any credit card you receive in the mail. Activation is not required for cards purchased at a vending machine or retailer.

[Busjack]

The one thing that noone has thought about is what happens Monday morning when riders discover they can't purchase a transit card. Buy a ventra card right? Well the card is no good until it is registered. So where does that leave riders at the farebox? At the rail stations that will put riders in a cannot ride scenario. I believe there's no way to pay cash fares on the "l", because you could have bought a transit card before. Now that's not an option starting Monday.

The card is good immediately, just that you don't get the $5 transit value until you register. Just looks like CTA or MetaBank will be holding onto an extra $5 for a while.

And, of course, there is also the $3 Ventra ticket.

[owine]

The one thing that noone has thought about is what happens Monday morning when riders discover they can't purchase a transit card. Buy a ventra card right? Well the card is no good until it is registered. So where does that leave riders at the farebox? At the rail stations that will put riders in a cannot ride scenario. I believe there's no way to pay cash fares on the "l", because you could have bought a transit card before. Now that's not an option starting Monday.

Single ride Ventra Ticket: $3

[jajuan]

_{So far so good. Purchased a new Ventra card at vending machine today and loaded a 7 day CTA/Pace Pass. Then I went online and registered. Then I checked the account to see if everything was OK I have a $5 transit value and a 7-day pass "in queue" I think it took all of five minutes to do online. Since I used a noncontactless card to pay for the card, I doublt I have to worry about money coming up missing from my bank account. We will see what happens when I actually use my card.}

You should have little to worry about Art. I did the almost exact same process (bought Ventra card with loaded 7-Day CTA pass instead rather than CTA/Pace one) three weeks ago to the day and have had no problems using my card. If your card had been a contactless card, it's unlikely you would see funds disappearing from your bank account. Folks who have reported that happening were those who made the mistake of tapping their whole wallet against a Ventra reader and had one of their other cards equipped with RFID technology dinged instead of or in addition to the Ventra card. As long as you don't tap your wallet while having other contactless cards, you shouldn't fall victim to the same disappearing funds scenario.

[Kevin]

I guess everyone is going with the strong passwords. After this became too complicated (i.e. T. Rowe Price's website accepted an 11 character password, but its Quicken link, it turned out, only 10), I make sure to write down the passwords on paper before putting them in a computer. Some are so bad as to ask for a pet's name when you don't have one, but one such site accepted "nonexistent."

A few password tips:

• I strongly recommend using a password management tool. Browsers typically offer this, but better options include LastPass (free, but a bit clunky interface-wise) and 1Password (paid, but easier to use.) Both LastPass and 1Password use strong encryption to protect your password data and allow you to only have to remember a single password. Plus, they make the next couple tips more feasible.
• Avoid using the same password for multiple sites, especially when it comes to Ventra. There is strong suspicion that Ventra passwords are stored in plain text (a major Security 101 no-no), meaning if someone breached their database they could easily obtain your password.
• Use fake and different answers for security questions. Security question answers are typically stored in plain text, so if a site is hacked they could obtain your questions/answers and use that information to try to gain access to other accounts. Again, a password management tool can help you keep track of what answers you gave. (Security questions are generally a bad idea, but unfortunately many sites continue to use them.)

[jajuan]

A few password tips:

• I strongly recommend using a password management tool. Browsers typically offer this, but better options include LastPass (free, but a bit clunky interface-wise) and 1Password (paid, but easier to use.) Both LastPass and 1Password use strong encryption to protect your password data and allow you to only have to remember a single password. Plus, they make the next couple tips more feasible.
• Avoid using the same password for multiple sites, especially when it comes to Ventra. There is strong suspicion that Ventra passwords are stored in plain text (a major Security 101 no-no), meaning if someone breached their database they could easily obtain your password.
• Use fake and different answers for security questions. Security question answers are typically stored in plain text, so if a site is hacked they could obtain your questions/answers and use that information to try to gain access to other accounts. Again, a password management tool can help you keep track of what answers you gave. (Security questions are generally a bad idea, but unfortunately many sites continue to use them.)

The LastPass and 1Password sites sound like the password data encryption option that my virus protection software uses to allow me to also use several different passwords while only needing to remember one, that of the identity safe on my virus protection software. That password is NOT the same as the password used to sign into my virus protection account (It's not allowed which is great). I still keep a little notebook packed away in a safe place in my home though with those passwords as an extra safety precaution and to keep myself from becoming too mentally lazy with not having to regularly remember all the passwords I use.

[brownliner]

 

Cubic plays a roll in this. They discontinued the chip technology in CC/CCP, essentially pushing CTA to modernize the fare system (and, in turn, award Cubic a nice big new contract).

okay, so CC/CCP had to go away. The replacement didn't have to be awful. And everything about ventra is. The web interface is awful, the telephone system is worse, the 20 seconds to scan a card getting on the bus, the lack of communication during the transition, the attempts to squeeze money out of everyone at every possible chance.

[BusHunter]

 

okay, so CC/CCP had to go away. The replacement didn't have to be awful. And everything about ventra is. The web interface is awful, the telephone system is worse, the 20 seconds to scan a card getting on the bus, the lack of communication during the transition, the attempts to squeeze money out of everyone at every possible chance.

And i'm told the up to half hour it takes to credit an account. Buy your rides in advance Monday riders.

[jajuan]

And i'm told the up to half hour it takes to credit an account. Buy your rides in advance Monday riders.

Actually as far as retailers go, they will likely still have some transit cards and magnetic stripe passes on hand and therefore will still be able to sell them. But what's going to happen is starting Monday, if they haven't already reordered those cards, they basically will be selling down what they have on hand. They won't be able to order more once they run out. So if you haven't seen it happening already you basically will have a hoarding situation start to kick in among any procrastinators to buy up what old cards they can to stretch out what time they can between now and December 15th, the day that NONE of the old fare media outside of cash will be accepted (Chicago Card and CCP users, however, only have until November 15th before their cards are no longer accepted).

[BusHunter]

30 day passes are sold out. 7 days you can still find, but everything is while it lasts. One retailer showed me what she had it was mostly 1 day passes. On monday we will be hearing about riders not being able to board and long lines at the ventra machine. It took me about 3 minutes to do a transaction so there will be lines. BTW, cumberland/blue line now has 3 ventra machines and one transit card machine. Today I observed one passenger look at the ventra machines with a lost look on her face. She did eventually find the transit card machine by the turnstiles however.

[jajuan]

30 day passes are sold out. 7 days you can still find, but everything is while it lasts. One retailer showed me what she had it was mostly 1 day passes. On monday we will be hearing about riders not being able to board and long lines at the ventra machine. It took me about 3 minutes to do a transaction so there will be lines. BTW, cumberland/blue line now has 3 ventra machines and one transit card machine. Today I observed one passenger look at the ventra machines with a lost look on her face. She did eventually find the transit card machine by the turnstiles however.

To be fair though, a Ventra vending machine gives you quite a bit more options to select from than a Transit Card vending machine. The former, you're choosing between both CTA and Pace fare media to buy or reload on a card with the option of paying cash, debit (used as credit) or credit cards. On the latter you're only choosing between buying or reloading a transit card or reloading a Chicago Card or CCP with the payment being cash only. So it only stands to reason that a transaction may take a little longer on a Ventra machine. But the Ventra machines are still stupid proof so a three minute transaction shouldn't be too bad unless you just don't know how to follow instructions. And don't forget retailers will be selling Ventra cards. So if one goes to a retailer and knows he's going to just opt to buy a Ventra card should the retailer not have the transit card or pass he wants, it makes little sense to go to a rail station if it can be avoided. That's not to say there won't be lines at the rail stations, but one could only hope it's mainly folks who bypassed a retail location.

As for what's available, actually the Jewel location at Ashland and Roosevelt still had everything except 7-day passes. That was this morning though. Whether they ran out of anything else besides 7-days after that I don't know, but it's possible. But I actually saw more people there looking for Ventra cards. And the reason I happened to learn they had all but 7-day passes is because a lady came there looking to buy a Ventra card loaded as a Transit Card, but the service desk clerk misunderstood thinking she wanted an actual Transit Card and she said to the lady she was in luck because they still had some of all the old cards except 7-day Passes but probably not for much longer because they were selling down what they already had and wouldn't be able to order more because of the Monday deadline with the continuing Ventra switchover. That's when the lady realized she misspoke and told the clerk she meant to say she wanted a Ventra card loaded up as a $20 Transit Card.

[jajuan]

I almost forgot that I was thinking of what Busjack was saying in regards to the savings CTA would actually see in moving things over to Ventra. Yes they will still be collecting cash fares and using the old fareboxes to do so for now, but it occurred to me that one thing CTA, and Pace for that matter, would no longer have to worry about is the cost of repairing a farebox that's mucked up because a genious passenger drops coins in the old card readers because they're moving too fast to pay attention to which slot their dumping their coins like. That detail dawned on me this morning when I was on a 9 Ashland bus and a guy did just what I described and jammed up that reader, which meant folks with old cards got free rides on that bus this morning since the reader was jammed. You have not only the cost of repairing that part of the farebox but also the cost of lost fares that couldn't be read and recorded from customers with the stripe cards. Both of those costs are lost revenues.

[Busjack]

I almost forgot that I was thinking of what Busjack was saying in regards to the savings CTA would actually see in moving things over to Ventra. Yes they will still be collecting cash fares and using the old fareboxes to do so for now, but it occurred to me that one thing CTA, and Pace for that matter, would no longer have to worry about is the cost of repairing a farebox that's mucked up because a genious passenger drops coins in the old card readers because they're moving too fast to pay attention to which slot their dumping their coins like. That detail dawned on me this morning when I was on a 9 Ashland bus and a guy did just what I described and jammed up that reader, which meant folks with old cards got free rides on that bus this morning since the reader was jammed. You have not only the cost of repairing that part of the farebox but also the cost of lost fares that couldn't be read and recorded from customers with the stripe cards. Both of those costs are lost revenues.

The old card readers will be gone, but people will still find a way to much stuff up.* In that Pace has a solicitation for fare box rebuilding parts, some cost is going to be incurred. The biggest cost, though, is still having to use armored money trucks to retrieve the money in the fare boxes. It hasn't been indicated whether CTA or Cubic has the responsibility to get the cash out of the vending machines.

On your 3 minutes at the vending machine point, CTA customer assistants have always hovered over them; however when things become much more complicated than just "the slot didn't accept my dollar bill" they will be even more preoccupied. However, if the call center is any indication, CTA isn't going to offer more customer assistants to get the line moving. Maybe people will figure out how to load up eventually.

*I know someone who stuck a dime down a department store self checkout machine's slot that spits out receipts, and, of course, went to the person operating the self service lanes to demand her dime back.

[jajuan]

The old card readers will be gone, but people will still find a way to much stuff up.* In that Pace has a solicitation for fare box rebuilding parts, some cost is going to be incurred. The biggest cost, though, is still having to use armored money trucks to retrieve the money in the fare boxes. It hasn't been indicated whether CTA or Cubic has the responsibility to get the cash out of the vending machines.

On your 3 minutes at the vending machine point, CTA customer assistants have always hovered over them; however when things become much more complicated than just "the slot didn't accept my dollar bill" they will be even more preoccupied. However, if the call center is any indication, CTA isn't going to offer more customer assistants to get the line moving. Maybe people will figure out how to load up eventually.

*I know someone who stuck a dime down a department store self checkout machine's slot that spits out receipts, and, of course, went to the person operating the self service lanes to demand her dime back.

Well the old readers are wired into the old fareboxes' memory so yes some initial cost is incurred in doing some rebuilding. That's actually intuitive. But along the lines of mucking things up I was thinking along the lines of once the old readers are removed the only slot any rider will see will be the actual coin slot.

As for my 3 minutes point, when I say the Ventra machines are stupid proof I refer to the machines asking in plain straightforward language as shown in the linked video Kevin provided and from my own personal experience whether a rider is buying a whole new Ventra card, getting a Ventra ticket, or reloading a previously purchased Ventra Card. It asks you quite clearly which fare option you're purchasing or reloading and quite clearly asks which form of payment you wish to use and has the slots for those payments clearly marked. So as I said, unless you have zero skills in following simple instructions the vending machine process shouldn't be so bad or anymore confusing over using the Transit Card machines. And yes I do concede their might be lines tomorrow, but the speed of the line should really depend more on how quickly a person reads through the options and spots the fare option he needs on his card (or ticket).

When it comes to folks registering their cards to get the $5 fee back, that's always depended on whether the person is technophobic; whether he's internet savvy; whether he has internet access; everyone becoming accustomed to Ventra cards potentially being used for more than transit and thus making the connection the access code folks had problems figuring out is ultimately Ventra asking that person to pick a PIN number just like a regular bank asks one to due when registering/activating a brand new debit card (Ventra needs to do better to make that part clear and not use it as an option for registering the card for transit only purposes); and how user friendly the Customer Call Center is.

[owine]

Well the old readers are wired into the old fareboxes' memory so yes some initial cost is incurred in doing some rebuilding. That's actually intuitive. But along the lines of mucking things up I was thinking along the lines of once the old readers are removed the only slot any rider will see will be the actual coin slot.

As for my 3 minutes point, when I say the Ventra machines are stupid proof I refer to the machines asking in plain straightforward language as shown in the linked video Kevin provided and from my own personal experience whether a rider is buying a whole new Ventra card, getting a Ventra ticket, or reloading a previously purchased Ventra Card. It asks you quite clearly which fare option you're purchasing or reloading and quite clearly asks which form of payment you wish to use and has the slots for those payments clearly marked. So as I said, unless you have zero skills in following simple instructions the vending machine process shouldn't be so bad or anymore confusing over using the Transit Card machines. And yes I do concede their might be lines tomorrow, but the speed of the line should really depend more on how quickly a person reads through the options and spots the fare option he needs on his card (or ticket).

When it comes to folks registering their cards to get the $5 fee back, that's always depended on whether the person is technophobic; whether he's internet savvy; whether he has internet access; everyone becoming accustomed to Ventra cards potentially being used for more than transit and thus making the connection the access code folks had problems figuring out is ultimately Ventra asking that person to pick a PIN number just like a regular bank asks one to due when registering/activating a brand new debit card (Ventra needs to do better to make that part clear and not use it as an option for registering the card for transit only purposes); and how user friendly the Customer Call Center is.

If Ventra is proving one thing, it's that people have no skills or interest in following instructions.

[Busjack]

If Ventra is proving one thing, it's that people have no skills or interest in following instructions.

It gets back to something I said in response to someone posting on a finance board that those who didn't get Windows 8 were Luddites.

In essence, "if you rely on calling your customers stupid, you are in trouble, even if the customers are stupid."

In launching something this complicated, while delaying full disclosure, and without adequate customer service, all that CTA has exhibited again is its overriding contempt for its customers. If Kevin got stuck once on using his RFID card (in not realizing that cash bus fare was $2.25) and again using a Ventra card and being double billed for a transfer and one ride at the same time, something is wrong.

The best that has been said about the instructions to date is that if you go up to a Ventra machine and scroll through and read 3 minutes of instructions, you can figure it out. I bet that anyone at CTA HQs forced to do that wouldn't be able to figure anything out. Like how some people still haven't received their cards, while others have received 100s, for instance.

This was supposed to be an open system, not trying to get to the top level in some video game.

[jajuan]

If Ventra is proving one thing, it's that people have no skills or interest in following instructions.

True. Part of that ingrained though process that it has to be faster to be better. It's also showing that some don't care to take time to keep track of their transit accounts if they've completed registration to get their $5 back for transit use either as fare or a discount on a pass.

It gets back to something I said in response to someone posting on a finance board that those who didn't get Windows 8 were Luddites.

In essence, "if you rely on calling your customers stupid, you are in trouble, even if the customers are stupid."

In launching something this complicated, while delaying full disclosure, and without adequate customer service, all that CTA has exhibited again is its overriding contempt for its customers. If Kevin got stuck once on using his RFID card (in not realizing that cash bus fare was $2.25) and again using a Ventra card and being double billed for a transfer and and ride at the same time, something is wrong.

The best that has been said about the instructions to date is that if you go up to a Ventra machine and scroll through and read 3 minutes of instructions, you can figure it out. I bet that anyone at CTA HQs forced to do that wouldn't be able to figure anything out. Like how some people still haven't received their cards, while others have received 100s, for instance.

This was supposed to be an open system, not trying to get to the top level in some video game.

And let's be fair now. Stupid was my word, not theirs. And I think I made my point in that regard which is, in some respects there are folks out there in the general public who make things more complicated than they need to be and whom in some cases haven't even made their own attempts to navigate the new system but still manage to be one of the loudest complainers. Did CTA bungle some this? Of course they did. I'll agree with you that their big mistake has been not saying in a timely manner ok this is how this works and here are some ways to get a better value for your dollar and still choose the fare options that best fit your riding needs. All that's done is allow a sometimes overzealous local media swoop in and see conspiracy in places there weren't necessarily a conspiracy to be found. It's also allowed others who have an ingrained bias or point of view to basically swoop in and zero in on details which feed their point of view even though in some cases it's more a far less harmless misstep than perceived. It's definitely fueled this feeding frenzy of zeroing in on every glitch that pops up and write a final verdict before complete transition is even done. Yes Kevin got dinged twice but he also mentioned that he got that issue fixed. On the 3 minute point, I'm going to say the following: one that's not necessarily how long it takes to go take each person to go through the options or that the machine is complicated enough to take that long. It could be that that individual wants to be sure he did everything right and wanted to be sure he was loaded the right fare media he intended to purchase on his card, just as a suspect was the case for Bushunter in saying it took him 3 minutes since I did same thing even though I knew I could have finished my transaction quicker than the time I actually took when I bought my card. Which brings me to my other big point. If you're making the decision to buy a product/service from a self service terminal, is 3 minutes really that much of an inconvenience to make sure you know what you're buying and/or if you're actually buying what you set your mind to buy without making a mistake on that machine?

[owine]

CTA totally botched the mailing process, that's the big one. I think the various outlets that cover the CTA regularly have done an intellectually dishonest job with their coverage. They seem to ignore the fact that any rollout of any product or service has its initial glitches that need to be worked out. There will be logical decisions made in a meeting 8 months ago that once implemented on day one prompt everyone to ask what they were thinking. This is nothing unique to the CTA, this is inevitably how everything works. I think part of the biggest issue is that the CTA fare structure is somewhat complicated in and of itself. That only adds to the chaos and that's before you add the Pace fare structure to the picture.

Ventra is probably the best and most advanced fare collection system in the US, but once people can use their own credit/debit card instead of Ventra fare media it will be even better. That's the real asset here and it's too bad that heavily publicized feature was not ready for day 1. Then again, if everything everyone likes to say about the CTA is true, wouldn't they have made that feature live out of contempt for the customer?

[Busjack]

....Which brings me to my other big point. If you're making the decision to buy a product/service from a self service terminal, is 3 minutes really that much of an inconvenience to make sure you know what you're buying and/or if you're actually buying what you set your mind to buy without making a mistake on that machine?

And my point is that if the system is supposed to speed loading on buses or through turnstiles (like the now defunct Go Lane was supposed to), this isn't working, especially if after navigating the vending machine, people are having trouble at the readers.

I'm not saying conspiracy here, just incompetence and contempt for the customer, especially if one has to exercise that much care to avoid being taken, which I suppose CTA does not want anyone to do.

But Tammy Chase was just on Channel 7.1 and said there will be more customer assistants at "select" stations tomorrow.

CTA totally botched the mailing process, that's the big one. I think the various outlets that cover the CTA regularly have done an intellectually dishonest job with their coverage. They seem to ignore the fact that any rollout of any product or service has its initial glitches that need to be worked out. There will be logical decisions made in a meeting 8 months ago that once implemented on day one prompt everyone to ask what they were thinking. This is nothing unique to the CTA, this is inevitably how everything works. I think part of the biggest issue is that the CTA fare structure is somewhat complicated in and of itself. That only adds to the chaos and that's before you add the Pace fare structure to the picture.

Ventra is probably the best and most advanced fare collection system in the US, but once people can use their own credit/debit card instead of Ventra fare media it will be even better. That's the real asset here and it's too bad that heavily publicized feature was not ready for day 1. Then again, if everything everyone likes to say about the CTA is true, wouldn't they have made that feature live out of contempt for the customer?

Any rollout may have glitches, but

• Usually there is customer testing before something is officially rolled out. For instance, McDonalds doesn't start McRib nationwide at once. When it converted its kitchens, it did a few at a time instead of crippling the whole system. Even Microsoft had consumer ergonomic studies before it rolled out Office 2007 (apparently not for Windows 8, though).
• The real asset would have been if CTA had been honest that its open fare system wasn't open...i.e. you would get the noncash fare if you used open media. To the extent that Kevin had to go through how you load transit value onto a RFID card, but then there were the warnings not to load too much without registering the card, or you could lose it even though you canceled the card with the bank, and I assume you can't check if you were double billed for a ride and a transfer if you aren't registered. So, essentially, CTA castrated the open fare option.
• I suppose that if one lives in Pace territory, the only viable option is to explain what you need to a clerk at a CVS or some currency exchanges (according to the Ventra map) at least until such time as Ventra vending machines are installed at a few transit centers. Thus, again RFID bank card users will have to pay cash fares, since Pace says it will stop issuing transfers.

I still contend that the unintelligent at CTA management decided to implement this on their own, not realizing that there are other transit authorities that have either implemented or studied this. For instance, there are reports of NY MTA having two trials, but not that they have gone over the cliff, yet. The MTA site says use MetroCard, which is still a "swipe" card (How to use page).

[owine]

And my point is that if the system is supposed to speed loading on buses or through turnstiles (like the now defunct Go Lane was supposed to), this isn't working, especially if after navigating the vending machine, people are having trouble at the readers.

I'm not saying conspiracy here, just incompetence and contempt for the customer, especially if one has to exercise that much care to avoid being taken, which I suppose CTA does not want anyone to do.

But Tammy Chase was just on Channel 7.1 and said there will be more customer assistants at "select" stations tomorrow.

Any rollout may have glitches, but

• Usually there is customer testing before something is officially rolled out. For instance, McDonalds doesn't start McRib nationwide at once. When it converted its kitchens, it did a few at a time instead of crippling the whole system. Even Microsoft had consumer ergonomic studies before it rolled out Office 2007 (apparently not for Windows 8, though).
• The real asset would have been if CTA had been honest that its open fare system wasn't open...i.e. you would get the noncash fare if you used open media. To the extent that Kevin had to go through how you load transit value onto a RFID card, but then there were the warnings not to load too much without registering the card, or you could lose it even though you canceled the card with the bank, and I assume you can't check if you were double billed for a ride and a transfer if you aren't registered. So, essentially, CTA castrated the open fare option.
• I suppose that if one lives in Pace territory, the only viable option is to explain what you need to a clerk at a CVS or some currency exchanges (according to the Ventra map) at least until such time as Ventra vending machines are installed at a few transit centers. Thus, again RFID bank card users will have to pay cash fares, since Pace says it will stop issuing transfers.

I still contend that the unintelligent at CTA management decided to implement this on their own, not realizing that there are other transit authorities that have either implemented or studied this. For instance, there are reports of NY MTA having two trials, but not that they have gone over the cliff, yet. The MTA site says use MetroCard, which is still a "swipe" card (How to use page).

They've claimed that there have been "select user trials" since the initial roadmap was released. I have no reason not to take them at their word on that. Testing under load is a different animal altogether and would explain the initial isolated fare loading issue they had. Simulating load is very difficult.

The open fare system is certainly open, I'm not sure what your definition is. With the new system, my family can hop off a plain at O'Hare and proceed directly to the turnstiles using their credit/debit cards to take an L ride into the city. How is that not open? And doesn't it make sense that doing so is treated as the equivalent of putting cash into a farebox?

[Busjack]

...

The open fare system is certainly open, I'm not sure what your definition is. With the new system, my family can hop off a plain at O'Hare and proceed directly to the turnstiles using their credit/debit cards to take an L ride into the city. How is that not open? And doesn't it make sense that doing so is treated as the equivalent of putting cash into a farebox?

On your last point, NO. Using a card should be using a card. CTA may have to pay some bank exchange fee to First Data, but it does not have the expense of cleaning out fare boxes, counting the coins and dollar bills, and transporting them via an armored car courier service to some bank.

Again, if it was so obvious, why did Kevin fall for it?

And, as noted earlier, your family has to take the crap shoot of using the credit card at O'Hare and paying $5 and not get a transfer, or buy a Ventra ticket for $5 and get transfers, or sit around reading the machine to figure out how to get a transit account on their bank card or whether to put in the $5 deposit to get a Ventra card. How intuitive is that?

[owine]

On your last point, NO. Using a card should be using a card. CTA may have to pay some bank exchange fee to First Data, but it does not have the expense of cleaning out fare boxes, counting the coins and dollar bills, and transporting them via an armored car courier service to some bank.

Again, if it was so obvious, why did Kevin fall for it?

And, as noted earlier, your family has to take the crap shoot of using the credit card at O'Hare and paying $5 and not get a transfer, or buy a Ventra ticket for $5 and get transfers, or sit around reading the machine to figure out how to get a transit account on their bank card or whether to put in the $5 deposit to get a Ventra card. How intuitive is that?

To me, the "same as cash" mantra applies.

You failed to note how the system is not open, you simply noted deficiencies in the CTA's fare structure.

[Busjack]

To me, the "same as cash" mantra applies.

You failed to note how the system is not open, you simply noted deficiencies in the CTA's fare structure.

No, I did not.

CTA's fare structure still could have been "use any card and board for $2.00/1 transfer 25 cents/2nd transfer free."

Instead they came up with the bizarre methods of somehow turning any card into a full cash fare with no transfers unless the user jumped through hoops. That was not a deficiency in the fare structure, it was a deceptive practice in rolling out the system, which they did not publicly correct for about 3 weeks.

BTW, why did we need trigger to tell us we were all wrong, and where is he now?

[owine]

What about it is deceptive? To me, as I said, the "same as cash" mantra applies to the concept. What about it do you find deceptive?