Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[Busjack]

In more fun and games, the Sun-Times points out that CTA, not Cubic, is paying for the round of calls to CC and CCP registered holders who haven't registered Ventra cards.

Apparently they got it under some limit on which the CT Board members would have to vote on the contract, not that that makes any difference as far as the CT Board members are concerned. I bet that most condo boards are better run.

[Tcmetro]

Actually on the GoTo readers on the Northstar Line in MN, the A, B, C, and D buttons are for different fare types (student, medicare, senior, etc). The readers automatically assume that you are going to Downtown. If you are going to another suburban station you have to make a selection on the GoTo reader to pay the suburb-to-suburb fare.

At the Downtown Station, there are multiple GoTo readers, preprogrammed for each of the suburban stations.

[owine]

Am I crazy or is Metra going to be a really easy transition to Ventra? Just outfit conductors with handheld readers and boom. Transitioning from existing fare media would be simple too and they would avoid all of the CC/CCP transition headaches.

[Busjack]

Am I crazy or is Metra going to be a really easy transition to Ventra? Just outfit conductors with handheld readers and boom. Transitioning from existing fare media would be simple too and they would avoid all of the CC/CCP transition headaches.

You don't want the answer to the first question.

As to the second, the Daily Herald reported:

• Pace and the CTA are forging ahead with a joint fare system dubbed Ventra but Metra has lagged behind. Right now, "we've got a team working with the CTA to accept Ventra cards at downtown terminals and point of sale terminals," he said. But Metra will also need an onboard system for conductors to accept passes and to issue tickets using passengers' credit or debit cards. For that, "Ventra may or may not be the way we go," Orseno said.

It was noted at the top of the thread that Metra got 2 ICE grants to study it.

So, at the moment the only plan is to accept Ventra (transit value?) to sell regular tickets. The other part hasn't been worked out yet.

Also, you should note Tcmetro's point above that one has to validate a GoTo card to the length of the ride, or you will be charged to the end of the line. We discussed the last time this system was proposed that having to use different validating machines for each Metra zone sure wouldn't get passengers out of the lobby at Chicago Union Station or Ogilvie Station.

Then one has to figure that Metra is the best commuter railroad of the 19th Century (and hence basically doesn't have fare media, but does have monthly ticket accounts) and had to be dragged to this point by the legislature.

And you thought that there were no problems with the CTA implementation, or are you like the Pace board not understanding why Metra didn't just jump over the cliff like Pace did?

[owine]

You don't want the answer to the first question.

As to the second, the Daily Herald reported:

• Pace and the CTA are forging ahead with a joint fare system dubbed Ventra but Metra has lagged behind. Right now, "we've got a team working with the CTA to accept Ventra cards at downtown terminals and point of sale terminals," he said. But Metra will also need an onboard system for conductors to accept passes and to issue tickets using passengers' credit or debit cards. For that, "Ventra may or may not be the way we go," Orseno said.

It was noted at the top of the thread that Metra got 2 ICE grants to study it.

So, at the moment the only plan is to accept Ventra (transit value?) to sell regular tickets. The other part hasn't been worked out yet.

Also, you should note Tcmetro's point above that one has to validate a GoTo card to the length of the ride, or you will be charged to the end of the line. We discussed the last time this system was proposed that having to use different validating machines for each Metra zone sure wouldn't get passengers out of the lobby at Chicago Union Station or Ogilvie Station.

Then one has to figure that Metra is the best commuter railroad of the 19th Century (and hence basically doesn't have fare media, but does have monthly ticket accounts) and had to be dragged to this point by the legislature.

And you thought that there were no problems with the CTA implementation, or are you like the Pace board not understanding why Metra didn't just jump over the cliff like Pace did?

There's no need to get personal but clearly you don't follow my opinions. Ventra is fine and experiencing the bumps and bruises anything new does. The transition is a mess. Important to note they are two different things.

Sample bar napkin Metra implementation:

Conductor with handheld reader punches in start and end zone then rider taps card. Ventra checks for monthly pass, weekend pass, 10 ride pass, prepaid ticket and if it finds nothing, deducts transit value.

If you don't have transit value, you just tap your credit/debit card and pay the full fare (plus on board fee?).

Basically, the same as it is now but the reader calculates the fare required.

As an aside, I've never understood why Metra never put vending machines at stations, but they could put Ventra machines and save the on board payment fee just for cash on board.

[Busjack]

...

Sample bar napkin Metra implementation:

...

As an aside, I've never understood why Metra never put vending machines at stations, but they could put Ventra machines and save the on board payment fee just for cash on board.

• Not even Forrest Claypool or Tammy Chase follow your opinions. Reread this article.
• If it is a simple implementation, why don't you appear before the Metra board and ask them to give you the two grants? And what is "bar napkin" supposed to mean?
• Your second comment is false. The IC/Metra Electric had a turnstile/fare vending machine system since the 1970s. The passengers demanded that the turnstiles be taken out, but the vending machines are still there. As for the rest of the system, it is still being run like the traditional 19th century railroad. Ticket agents on the UP and BNSF lines are employees of those railroads.

Finally, if it is so simple, why are transit authorities such as MBTA and SEPTA, which have regional commuter rail operations, still studying it too, and saying that bus will precede rail?

[owine]

• Not even Forrest Claypool or Tammy Chase follow your opinions. Reread this article.
• If it is a simple implementation, why don't you appear before the Metra board and ask them to give you the two grants? And what is "bar napkin" supposed to mean?
• Your second comment is false. The IC/Metra electric had a turnstile/fare vending machine system since the 1970s. The passengers demanded that the turnstiles be taken out, but the vending machines are still there. As for the rest of the system, it is still being run like the traditional 19th century railroad. Ticket agents on the UP and BNSF lines are employees of those railroads.

Finally, if it is so simple, why are transit authorities such as MBTA and SEPTA, which have regional commuter rail operations, still studying it too?

That's a compliment, right? They can't follow a straight line...

Again, "some" users with no context. We've already come up with entirely reasonable explanations for that on here and for those that did not result from a double tap or another user error (as a result of a Ventra shortcoming or not), it's part of the teething that anything new has. If there are details in there, I'm not willing to pay for the Tribune just to see them.

A bar napkin implementation is something off the top of my head that is not thought out in any sort of detail.

Sorry, I meant ALL Metra stations.

[Busjack]

...

A bar napkin implementation is something off the top of my head that is not thought out in any sort of detail.

...

Again, so much for jargon.

If that's the definition, consider the problems that Metra already has. Then if Metra couldn't figure out that people wouldn't buy 10 ride tickets for the price of 10 rides, consider what would happen if they turned over their admittedly archaic fare collection system to the mess described in Hilkevitch's column, just based on something off the top of your head.

You still haven't answered that if this is such a top of the head exercise, why SEPTA and MBTA are no further along (I added links since you quoted).

[Busjack]

I moved it:

Actually on the GoTo readers on the Northstar Line in MN, the A, B, C, and D buttons are for different fare types (student, medicare, senior, etc). The readers automatically assume that you are going to Downtown. If you are going to another suburban station you have to make a selection on the GoTo reader to pay the suburb-to-suburb fare.

At the Downtown Station, there are multiple GoTo readers, preprogrammed for each of the suburban stations.

• Are the GoTo cards proprietary or supposedly open, and do they use RFID?
• The
  last time Northstar was mentioned, it was using magnetic stripe cards.
  The Metro pages indicate that those are still accepted on the bus (reference to stored value cards), but don't say on the train.

The reasons I ask is that the card may be analogous to the Chicago Card rather than the Ventra system.

[owine]

Again, so much for jargon.

If that's the definition, consider the problems that Metra already has. Then if Metra couldn't figure out that people wouldn't buy 10 ride tickets for the price of 10 rides, consider what would happen if they turned over their admittedly archaic fare collection system to the mess described in Hilkevitch's column, just based on something off the top of your head.

You still haven't answered that if this is such a top of the head exercise, why SEPTA and MBTA are no further along (I added links since you quoted).

Can you PDF the Hilkevitch column? I'm not a Tribune subscriber.

[BusHunter]

One other thing that comes out of the article is that I guessed right that for some customers with the negative balance issue, those customers were giving themselves those balances inadvertently from tapping again on their own until they got the "Go" message or tapping again at an operators instruction because the operator also thought the card didn't read. Yes they botched their approach in getting problems resolved as I said several times. But a deliberate scam I don't see unless we want to say Pace is also in cohoots when it's been established the service boards don't collaborate on much of anything these days.

That may sound good for an explanation of why people are being overcharged, but the question is why is that happening? When customers used a transit card/pass in the past when they boarded and they used it again within about 10-12 minutes on the same route, they would be denied service or the farebox would reject the card. This is called a passback. Why then do these Ventra cards not have that? The night i was overcharged, I was given two stop notices before I got a go notice, so your explanation is valid. My card went from $4.75 to 25 cents in a space of two rides, but four swipes. But then the same explanation was proved invalid when I rode Pace that same trip hoping not to be charged $6 for three rides. The ventra card had 25 cents right, but I had to swipe four times to ride Pace. If your explanation was valid i should have been denied service but I got the go signal and was on my way. The card still has 25 cents on it to this day. That's why it's better to use passes with no card balance. Like yesterday I had to swipe 3 times on the #8, but it's a pass and it doesn't matter. Ventra is only good as a pass, but I'm only using that because there is no other choice.

[owine]

That may sound good for an explanation of why people are being overcharged, but the question is why is that happening? When customers used a transit card/pass in the past when they boarded and they used it again within about 10-12 minutes on the same route, they would be denied service or the farebox would reject the card. This is called a passback. Why then do these Ventra cards not have that? The night i was overcharged, I was given two stop notices before I got a go notice, so your explanation is valid. My card went from $4.75 to 25 cents in a space of two rides, but four swipes. But then the same explanation was proved invalid when I rode Pace that same trip hoping not to be charged $6 for three rides. The ventra card had 25 cents right, but I had to swipe four times to ride Pace. If your explanation was valid i should have been denied service but I got the go signal and was on my way. The card still has 25 cents on it to this day. That's why it's better to use passes with no card balance. Like yesterday I had to swipe 3 times on the #8, but it's a pass and it doesn't matter. Ventra is only good as a pass, but I'm only using that because there is no other choice.

I think the why has a few answers. Obviously, the readers need to be modified slightly with some more feedback to discourage or disable second taps. That would go a very long way.

With regard to the passback issue, Ventra is not intended to work as previous media when you do a passback. From http://www.transitchicago.com/ventrabenefits/

New cards will have more robust “passback” features—up to seven people can share the same card and with Ventra, not everyone will need to start riding at the same place (you can meet up with someone on the way and pay for them with your card). You can even ask the driver or station attendant to let you pay a reduced fare for a qualifying rider travelling with you.

It seems to me that ironing out the logic with the "more robust" passback feature and refinements to the reader feedback would go a very long way to fixing this issue.

[BusHunter]

An operator was showing me how Ventra is set up on the bus for multiple users. You know how the screens are blue, right. When someone boards and wants to pay multiple fares, the operator presses a button on his control pad, that square box on the dash and the screen on the ventra reader turns green. Then it can be used for multiple rides. They have to switch it back to the blue screen for single riders.

Yes i agree. The system needs to be reprogrammed.

[owine]

An operator was showing me how Ventra is set up on the bus for multiple users. You know how the screens are blue, right. When someone boards and wants to pay multiple fares, the operator presses a button on his control pad, that square box on the dash and the screen on the ventra reader turns green. Then it can be used for multiple rides. They have to switch it back to the blue screen for single riders.

Yes i agree. The system needs to be reprogrammed.

Interesting. This would obviously be difficult to implement at rail stations since the readers/turnstiles are not manned, but sounds like the right way to handle passbacks.

Was your experience on a bus or rail ride?

[Busjack]

Interesting. This would obviously be difficult to implement at rail stations since the readers/turnstiles are not manned, but sounds like the right way to handle passbacks.

....

There is always a customer assistant.

Thus, the question is whether a passback should be programmatically assumed, or manually input.

[owine]

There is always a customer assistant.

Thus, the question is whether a passback should be programmatically assumed, or manually input.

Yes but what about auxiliary entrances? And I fear the logistics of relying on the customer assistant for that could be a nightmare. I'd like to require as little involvement from the CA's as possible.

My suggestion: first rider taps and enters as normal. Second rider taps, the screen says something to the effect of "this card has been used recently, tap again to accept the additional fare charge". And the turnstile/gate disengages and charges upon second tap only.

[Busjack]

Yes but what about auxiliary entrances? And I fear the logistics of relying on the customer assistant for that could be a nightmare. I'd like to require as little involvement from the CA's as possible.

My suggestion: first rider taps and enters as normal. Second rider taps, the screen says something to the effect of "this card has been used recently, tap again to accept the additional fare charge". And the turnstile/gate disengages and charges upon second tap only.

The second makes sense. In the case of the first, I suppose someone could pass back the card before going through the rotogate, but certainly not stick his arm between the tines.

Otherwise, the auxiliary entrances would be like the coin or IPass only tollway entrances--certain services provided by humans, such as change, are not available there; go to the next entrance.

[jajuan]

That may sound good for an explanation of why people are being overcharged, but the question is why is that happening? When customers used a transit card/pass in the past when they boarded and they used it again within about 10-12 minutes on the same route, they would be denied service or the farebox would reject the card. This is called a passback. Why then do these Ventra cards not have that? The night i was overcharged, I was given two stop notices before I got a go notice, so your explanation is valid. My card went from $4.75 to 25 cents in a space of two rides, but four swipes. But then the same explanation was proved invalid when I rode Pace that same trip hoping not to be charged $6 for three rides. The ventra card had 25 cents right, but I had to swipe four times to ride Pace. If your explanation was valid i should have been denied service but I got the go signal and was on my way. The card still has 25 cents on it to this day. That's why it's better to use passes with no card balance. Like yesterday I had to swipe 3 times on the #8, but it's a pass and it doesn't matter. Ventra is only good as a pass, but I'm only using that because there is no other choice.

For one thing, point to where I said the multiple taps explained ALL negative and/or disappearing balances sir? I said from the beginning it possibly explained SOME of those effected balances. The only point of my post yesterday is that the article backs up my original point that the multiple taps were part of the negative/disappearing balance problem for again SOME riders because of internal glitches in Ventra's system. Apparently Hilkevitch got from them that because old fare collecting infrastructure is still in place with the new, they're for right now hypothesizing that possibly old software is conflicting with new might be part of the root of the internal computer glitches that had some folks tapping multiple times and thus finding they inadvertently dwindled their balances or sent them into the negative because the system was registering collected fares even though the reader screen said differently and SOME of the rest of reported issues that popped like the being charged a whole new fare at the same exact instant as a transfer was registered on what was a transfer ride.

[BusHunter]

That's easy. I quoted it, but you never said some or all just that it was happening. So I take that as all or most. I'm just stating what I observed, I never said whether you were right or wrong, just working out your theory of events. My theory is that it is more than just that that is happening.

@owine: I observed this on the bus, strangely enough this has never happened on the rail system. So what is unique about the rail system that this is not occurring?

[Busjack]

... I observed this on the bus, strangely enough this has never happened on the rail system. So what is unique about the rail system that this is not occurring?

I'm not going to answer for him, but the Hilkevitch article mentioned lines at the turnstiles.

"There has been a massive line going through the turnstiles at Clark and Lake the past couple days," commuter Scott Lewis said in an email to Getting Around. "When I got to the front, I discovered why: It's very hard to get the card to work. A CTA employee often has to help, and they often have trouble as well."

Also, a possible difference is that communications with a bus rely on a cell phone link, while a more fixed means of communications (such as the fiber optic system or satellite dishes) could be used with the rapid transit stations.

[owine]

That's easy. I quoted it, but you never said some or all just that it was happening. So I take that as all or most. I'm just stating what I observed, I never said whether you were right or wrong, just working out your theory of events. My theory is that it is more than just that that is happening.

@owine: I observed this on the bus, strangely enough this has never happened on the rail system. So what is unique about the rail system that this is not occurring?

I had a passback fare deducted at a rail station. I tapped, was given the Go sign, went through and had someone else tap my card again. The first ride came off my 30-day pass. The second deducted $2.25 from my transit value (which actually pushed it into the negative).

[jajuan]

That's easy. I quoted it, but you never said some or all just that it was happening. So I take that as all or most. I'm just stating what I observed, I never said whether you were right or wrong, just working out your theory of events. My theory is that it is more than just that that is happening.

@owine: I observed this on the bus, strangely enough this has never happened on the rail system. So what is unique about the rail system that this is not occurring?

Actually I did but I'm not going to keep saying it word for word just as I don't expect you to keep repeating yourself on your side of things word for word as it gets rhetorically cumbersome and unnecessary for us to follow each other. We're adult enough to ask each other for clarification on a point or offer it up as necessary so no harm no foul.

[BusHunter]

Looks like my contact was right on the brinks truck I just passed one picking up money at Logan Square. Goodbye CTA armored trucks.

[brownliner]

 

Yes but what about auxiliary entrances? And I fear the logistics of relying on the customer assistant for that could be a nightmare. I'd like to require as little involvement from the CA's as possible.

My suggestion: first rider taps and enters as normal. Second rider taps, the screen says something to the effect of "this card has been used recently, tap again to accept the additional fare charge". And the turnstile/gate disengages and charges upon second tap only.

 

With a turnstile, you simply don't let the card be charged again, until the turnstile has turned. The chicago card did that; there's no reason ventra couldn't. Can't manage the 'reduced fare' option without intervention, but it will get the normal case just fine. If you're traveling with someone, send them through the turnstile first, then go yourself. The works for regular turnstiles, and for the restricted ones at auxiliary entrances.

[owine]

   

With a turnstile, you simply don't let the card be charged again, until the turnstile has turned. The chicago card did that; there's no reason ventra couldn't. Can't manage the 'reduced fare' option without intervention, but it will get the normal case just fine. If you're traveling with someone, send them through the turnstile first, then go yourself. The works for regular turnstiles, and for the restricted ones at auxiliary entrances.

Begs the question of how the Ventra readers are interfacing with the turnstile. Is it two way communication (i.e. can the turnstile tell the reader when its turned)? Is it just one way with the reader unlocking the turnstile but the turnstile handles the rest?