Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[owine]

I was looking through my online Ventra account more last night and noticed something odd under Order History where it lists the Legacy Order Migration with a "Cancelled" Status about 2.5 hours after originating the order. Now I wonder if they really cancelled it or are they using some odd terminology for the process?

My account summary also shows a 10-digit Transit ID number listed as Status Closed. I assumed that was the card number that was assigned to be sent to me and it shows Closed since I never yet activated the card (since I never received a card).

But after seeing the Cancelled status on the order, now I'm wondering if I'm even scheduled to receive a card at all and if others who haven't yet received their card are showing the same cancelled status.

I have not seen that verbiage used anywhere. Perhaps they are scrapping the current mailing process in lieu of having people order their cards online or get them from a machine and use the website to activate?

[Busjack]

On the "is this another NABI" question, the latest Tribune article says that Cubic gets paid monthly, and hasn't been paid yet. One would guess that the $454 million tab is something like over 120 or 144 months.

It also indicates that "the lawyers have been called," for CTA to recover fares not registered in the Ventra system.

[BusHunter]

On the "is this another NABI" question, the latest Tribune article says that Cubic gets paid monthly, and hasn't been paid yet. One would guess that the $454 million tab is something like over 120 or 144 months.

It also indicates that "the lawyers have been called," for CTA to recover fares not registered in the Ventra system.

Yes that's exactly how the NABI mess started. It almost sounds like they may intend on recouping losses by going to court. This doesn't sound good for Cubic. It seems we're already past the first step to removal of Ventra off the system. I wonder can CTA sue to recoup losses should they have to transition to a different card. CTa was using it's own vehicles to transport machines and using it's own manpower; CTA has most likely lost revenue because of this and it's infrastructure is now set up to use something that doesn't work. A lawyer can probably have a field day on this case.

[Busjack]

Yes that's exactly how the NABI mess started. It almost sounds like they may intend on recouping losses by going to court. This doesn't sound good for Cubic. It seems we're already past the first step to removal of Ventra off the system. I wonder can CTA sue to recoup losses should they have to transition to a different card. CTa was using it's own vehicles to transport machines and using it's own manpower; CTA has most likely lost revenue because of this and it's infrastructure is now set up to use something that doesn't work. A lawyer can probably have a field day on this case.

We aren't there yet. If one wants to take Emanuel's most recent statement* that it isn't a debacle, that leaves the possibility that Cubic can cure its performance. If you remember from the NABI situation, NABI apparently got about $87 million of its $102 million million contract before CTA decided to withhold payments, and claimed, both when the payments were withheld and after CTA took the buses off the street, that it was going to inspect and fix them, but never did.

Obviously, allowing passengers to board without being able to process their fares is a direct source of damages. The rest you bring up are consequential damages that may result from an effort to scrap the system. The only direct damages would be that and the difference in what Cubic bid compared to what someone else bid (apparently the SEPTA job is being done by Xerox). Maybe any cost CTA incurred in transporting equipment would qualify as direct damages, but anything else would be consequential damages, and tough to recover. IIRC, you asked similar questions about NABI, but the settlement was essentially only for direct damages--the depreciated value of what CTA couldn't use, minus scrap value--not, for instance, the cost of the lease for the 150 NF buses.

If, in fact, CTA hasn't paid anything yet, and all of the equipment is on Cubic's dime, CTA would not have much of a claim, other than for the lost fares.

____

*To put in in mk's terms, did the wrestler leave town because he lost the loser leave town match, or is the reality the reverse? Emanuel may have spoken second, but I bet Claypool did not have the original idea.

[BusHunter]

Of course Emanuel is going to say it's not a debacle. He has reelection to think about. Cubic's rep is quoted in the tribune as saying he doesn't know if he can fix the problems. So if he can't CTA won't pay and the whole case will end in court, but CTA riders will most likely be stuck with the system until a court decision is handed out. How come CTA has all these NABI type scenarios? Doesn't anyone build anything worth it's mustard anymore?

[jajuan]

Well can we see if Cubic actually follow through with fixing the problems before we start predicting court battles or Ventra getting scrapped? From what the mayor and CTA are saying none of those are on the radar at this point.

[Amtrak41]

Do we know of any other open source systems in this country as of yet, other than Ventra and whatever SEPTA is getting ?

The way it will work on SEPTA commuter trains is you will initially be charged the highest fare for your line, then will have to remember to "tap out" when you get to the suburban station short of Zone 4 or NJ to get a pro-rata refund.

[Busjack]

Of course Emanuel is going to say it's not a debacle. He has reelection to think about. Cubic's rep is quoted in the tribune as saying he doesn't know if he can fix the problems. So if he can't CTA won't pay and the whole case will end in court, but CTA riders will most likely be stuck with the system until a court decision is handed out. How come CTA has all these NABI type scenarios? Doesn't anyone build anything worth it's mustard anymore?

Management of contractors is always a problem, and as healthcare.gov proves, not particular to CTA,

But CTA apparently had no problem with New Flyer or Novabus, and Emanuel and Claypool knew that the you know what would hit the fan if the Red Line South project wasn't done on time.

With anything in Illinois, though, the question always is whether the low bidder is qualified or the winner used political influence or bribery to get the job.

Getting back to contract management, at least inspectors hired by CTA found the Bombardier problems, but until yesterday, CTA had the usual response to the Ventra stink of sending out the PR staff to say that everything is fine. At least yesterday it got changed to "well it looks like it is preforming, but we have to do something about the bad customer experience," if you take today's Emanuel comments in context.

[Busjack]

Do we know of any other open source systems in this country as of yet, other than Ventra and whatever SEPTA is getting ?

The way it will work on SEPTA commuter trains is you will initially be charged the highest fare for your line, then will have to remember to "tap out" when you get to the suburban station short of Zone 4 or NJ to get a pro-rata refund.

Something like that was surmised for Metra, but if you think there was a stink over double billing, wait until someone who has a $4.75 fare to Zone D gets charged $8.25 to Zone K, although I suppose that the vast majority of Metra riders use monthly passes.

Metra's interim Executive Director indicated that the conductor would need some sort of on board fare inspection device.

[Busjack]

New one in the Tribune: If you exit through the front door and get too close to the reader, you get charged.

[Busjack]

Well can we see if Cubic actually follow through with fixing the problems before we start predicting court battles or Ventra getting scrapped? From what the mayor and CTA are saying none of those are on the radar at this point.

I mentioned the opportunity to cure.

But, as the Tribune reported, it was Claypool who said he was calling in the lawyers:

"It will be up to the lawyers to review," said Claypool, adding that the CTA doesn't know how much money has been lost. But he said uncollected fares, up to 5 percent of Ventra transactions, represent "an unacceptably high number of instances. … We will look at it, we will quantify it and will work with our lawyers."

[jajuan]

I mentioned the opportunity to cure.

But, as the Tribune reported, it was Claypool who said he was calling in the lawyers:

"It will be up to the lawyers to review," said Claypool, adding that the CTA doesn't know how much money has been lost. But he said uncollected fares, up to 5 percent of Ventra transactions, represent "an unacceptably high number of instances. … We will look at it, we will quantify it and will work with our lawyers."

Calling in the lawyers though is not the same thing as having a blown court proceeding. Don't legal disputes also get worked out in some type of arbitration or other out of court behind the scenes scenario? That's all I'm saying.

[owine]

New one in the Tribune: If you exit through the front door and get too close to the reader, you get charged.

Isn't the Chicago Card just as vulnerable to this...? We're really grasping at straws at this point.

[jajuan]

Isn't the Chicago Card just as vulnerable to this...? We're really grasping at straws at this point.

Right. At this point it's becoming a piling on thing instead of keeping a focus on the actual problems that have been actually proven.

[Busjack]

Calling in the lawyers though is not the same thing as having a blown court proceeding. Don't legal disputes also get worked out in some type of arbitration or other out of court behind the scenes scenario? That's all I'm saying.

No. As the NABI case shows, the judge can call the parties in for pretrial conferences to try to settle things, once the case is filed, but otherwise there has to be an arbitration agreement.

CTA requisitions generally say:

*

i.e. the only option is to go to a court in Cook County.

The only prerequisites may be that the complaint state that a demand has been made and the defendant failed or refused to perform, and the parties went through this process or the defendant refused to do so.

____

*From General Specifications in 7000s requisition.

[jajuan]

No. As the NABI case shows, the judge can call the parties in for pretrial conferences to try to settle things, once the case is filed, but otherwise there has to be an arbitration agreement.

CTA requisitions generally say:

disputes.jpg

disputes2.jpg*

i.e. the only option is to go to a court in Cook County.

The only prerequisites may be that the complaint state that a demand has been made and the defendant failed or refused to perform, and the parties went through this process or the defendant refused to do so.

____

*From General Specifications in 7000s requisition.

Gotcha. But I was speaking of a full blown trial. Sorry about the small confusion of what I meant when I misspoke there.

[BusHunter]

I mentioned the opportunity to cure.

But, as the Tribune reported, it was Claypool who said he was calling in the lawyers:

"It will be up to the lawyers to review," said Claypool, adding that the CTA doesn't know how much money has been lost. But he said uncollected fares, up to 5 percent of Ventra transactions, represent "an unacceptably high number of instances. … We will look at it, we will quantify it and will work with our lawyers."

Yes, but Ventra has overcharged at least 40 percent of the riders. (anyone not using a pass) I doubt riders will ever be repaid for their losses unless they complain to ventra. Is 30 min to an hour on the phone worth a couple bucks? I haven't really seen riders get charged on exit, but I suppose it's possible for a left handed person to get charged because that side of the body is closer to the reader on exit. It doesn't help either that on the NF's the reader is on a grab bar versus closer to the farebox on Novas.

[Busjack]

Yes, but Ventra has overcharged at least 40 percent of the riders. (anyone not using a pass) I doubt riders will ever be repaid for their losses unless they complain to ventra. Is 30 min to an hour on the phone worth a couple bucks? I haven't really seen riders get charged on exit, but I suppose it's possible for a left handed person to get charged because that side of the body is closer to the reader on exit. It doesn't help either that on the NF's the reader is on a grab bar versus closer to the farebox on Novas.

Don't know about your numbers, but

• People with passes have ended up with negative balances due to the false "passback."
• Depends on how one wants satisfaction; either sit on the phone, or wait for the CTA audit or the result of the class action. Frosty says that the phone wait will eventually get under 5 minutes.

[BusHunter]

I googled pass use and according to metroplanning.org pass use on cta is 55 percent. So im basically saying the rest are the transit card users which get double charged by about $10 of use.

[jajuan]

I googled pass use and according to metroplanning.org pass use on cta is 55 percent. So im basically saying the rest are the transit card users which get double

charged by about $10 of use.

That's assuming all riders who use their cards as transit cards instead of passes got hit with the multiple charge problem. And you can't definitively make that claim outside of your own assumption even if a good number of Ventra card holders ran into some type of problem.

One other thing I have noticed though is Mr.CTA mentions to riders to remove their cards from their wallets and tap them on the center of the reader when boarding in the automated announcements.

[Amtrak41]

If this is true:

"But he said uncollected fares, up to 5 percent of Ventra transactions"

and this is true

"Yes, but Ventra has overcharged at least 40 percent of the riders. (anyone not using a pass)"

CTA will be crying all the way to the bank. (40 less 5 = 35), and use only some of the profits to pay off the lawyers.

[Busjack]

If this is true:

"But he said uncollected fares, up to 5 percent of Ventra transactions"

and this is true

"Yes, but Ventra has overcharged at least 40 percent of the riders. (anyone not using a pass)"

CTA will be crying all the way to the bank. (40 less 5 = 35), and use only some of the profits to pay off the lawyers.

A lot of mathematical errors here (although CTA is often guilty of that).

5% of the rides would be 5% of the unlinked trips (most of which would require some sort of Ventra transaction). Since CTA says that it averages about $1.08 a ride, and the ridership report indicates 44 million boardings a month, that's a quantifiable loss of maybe $2,400,000 a month. If Ventra has only a 50% acceptance rate up to now, that would be a $1.2 million a month loss.

You can also compare that to the Budget Report, that farebox and pass revenue was $51 million for the month, which yields a similar loss of $1.275 million, assuming 50% Ventra usage.

Update: One does not know how many of the 5% consist of pass transactions, for which CTA got its money, anyway.

On the other hand, to get to your 40% would take assuming that all stored value riders get taken on every boarding, an assumption BusHunter and you can't make (as jajuan noted).

[BusHunter]

A lot of mathematical errors here (although CTA is often guilty of that).

5% of the rides would be 5% of the unlinked trips (most of which would require some sort of Ventra transaction). Since CTA says that it averages about $1.08 a ride, and the ridership report indicates 44 million boardings a month, that's a quantifiable loss of maybe $2,400,000 a month. If Ventra has only a 50% acceptance rate up to now, that would be a $1.2 million a month loss.

You can also compare that to the Budget Report, that farebox and pass revenue was $51 million for the month, which yields a similar loss of $1.275 million, assuming 50% Ventra usage.

Update: One does not know how many of the 5% consist of pass transactions, for which CTA got its money, anyway.

On the other hand, to get to your 40% would take assuming that all stored value riders get taken on every boarding, an assumption BusHunter and you can't make (as jajuan noted).

Yes, but if we believe only 5 percent of the riders were overcharged, as Cubic would like us to believe, then that's not a crisis and shouldn't have any media exposure. The attention of the media itself tells us it's an epidemic happening to more than 1 out of every 20 riders. The statistic that is missing in all this how many are using Ventra and how many are not and how many have switched to transit cards because they can't use Ventra. I'll say this out of $30 in rides I've heard of from friends and myself this card has overcharged us 3 to 4 times, so the pattern seems to be by about every $10 dollars in rides you will be overcharged at least once. If you look at my original statement you'll see I said "by the time they get to $10 dollars". So far that statement is undefeated in my experiences in that part of the card.

To the non believers out there, I challenge you to put $10 on a card and try it out for yourself and you'll see what I mean. those riding with a pass all the time or not at all don't have the negative experience to back up their statements. Let experience be your teacher and don't make statements based on no personal experience.

[brownliner]

No. As the NABI case shows, the judge can call the parties in for pretrial conferences to try to settle things, once the case is filed, but otherwise there has to be an arbitration agreement.

Even when the contract says you get to sue in a friendly court, most disputes get solved before trial. There are all sorts of avenues of negotiation, formal and informal that will get exhausted first.

Trials are expensive, risky, and slow; generally parties and their lawyers work pretty hard to avoid them. Even when you win, you can lose.

[jajuan]

Yes, but if we believe only 5 percent of the riders were overcharged, as Cubic would like us to believe, then that's not a crisis and shouldn't have any media exposure. The attention of the media itself tells us it's an epidemic happening to more than 1 out of every 20 riders. The statistic that is missing in all this how many are using Ventra and how many are not and how many have switched to transit cards because they can't use Ventra. I'll say this out of $30 in rides I've heard of from friends and myself this card has overcharged us 3 to 4 times, so the pattern seems to be by about every $10 dollars in rides you will be overcharged at least once. If you look at my original statement you'll see I said "by the time they get to $10 dollars". So far that statement is undefeated in my experiences in that part of the card.

To the non believers out there, I challenge you to put $10 on a card and try it out for yourself and you'll see what I mean. those riding with a pass all the time or not at all don't have the negative experience to back up their statements. Let experience be your teacher and don't make statements based on no personal experience.

Well no no one believes that woefully low number from Cubic either. Just because I said I disagree with your number because there's no verifiable evidence of it outside of your assumption that relies on a set of factors that's statistically impossible doesn't mean I'm buying Cubic's line either. Quite frankly the true number is likely in between your assumption and their talking point. And I do think it's fair to say that what we also have here are cases of the media just piling on and not completely investigating the likelihood of certain reported mishaps or just plain not giving the complete story because it bumps their ratings up to have folks tuned in hearing about the latest alleged mishaps. And that just adds to the confusion among the public already caused or perpetuated by CTA botching the mailing of cards meant to replace Chicago Cards and CCP, email mixup and mishaps that ballooned into unneeded crises because of CTA management dragging its feet in acknowledging there were some problems and stumbling blocks to iron out.