Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[Busjack]

The first point, cash is still involved somewhere in the equation so my point still is there that no one should be surprised that the transport of that cash so it can be accounted for in CTA's books is also still part of the equation. Heck, they themselves said from day one you could still pay cash on the bus and now use cash to pay for a Ventra card or ticket.

As for your point about how a debit or credit card is handled on the bus or at a turnstile, I wasn't talking about using either of those cards to tap on a Ventra reader to pay your fare as what they call PAYG. I was talking about using them at a Ventra vending machine to buy a Ventra card or ticket. What they did promise explicitly was being able to pay your fare with a debit or credit card which they did come through on. But since you bring that point back up, they never promised explicitly that you would get transfers when you tap your debit or credit card without registering either as the card you're going to use for your Ventra transit account instead of an actual Ventra card and then loading either a pass or transit value on said card. And even during the days info on how Ventra would work was short in coming, one of the first things Cubic said on the Ventra site was that CTA and Pace were still responsible for their own fare structures and policies. So there you go on that.

• But, if those costs were not taken out of the system, CTA is paying $450 million either for a system that is an embarrassment, or as Kevin pointed out, got conned by Cubic on the issue whether the old cards would cease to work. Then throw in what Pace had to pay, including for additional Ventra vending machines, apparently because the places where Ventra cards would be available in the suburbs were not as increased as Pace was representing (only CVS and currency exchanges, for the most part). In the meantime, the fare boxes have been continually said for the last 8 years to be obsolete, and this $450 million doesn't do anything about that, as shown by the Pace and CTA procurement solicitations.
• Sure, only CTA and Pace have the sole statutory right to set fares,but you seem to want to relitigate over CTA acting in a deceptive manner in not posting the new fare chart for 3 weeks. Then you have the Pace budget announcing that the main topic at the budget hearing is abolishing all sorts of passes, but at least Pace says in that document that bank cards are as cash. Do you know if the conclusion that they are cash are because CTA and Pace wanted a revenue increase, or Cubic couldn't or wouldn't process the bank card transactions in any other way? Like I indicated before, either one is a backdoor, and legally deceptive means to get a fare increase.

I agree with Kevin that someone was sold a bill of goods on this deal. It appears that a lot of people were. I still think that the lawsuit has merit, although I said I won't predict the outcome.

[owine]

I doubt it is a Cubic-imposed limitation. If the PAYG fare already authorizes $5.00 and then posts based on the number of trips actually taken, they are already figuring out the number of rides a card takes in a fixed time window. They could apply the transfer logic in that process to come up with the final number to charge the card. As I've said before, to me the mantra of "same as cash" for the PAYG fares applies.

[Busjack]

...As I've said before, to me the mantra of "same as cash" for the PAYG fares applies.

And, as I said before, in that case I'll put 9 quarters into the fare box (or maybe 5 quarters and 10 dimes) and let CTA or Pace absorb the cost.

Emanuel said he wasn't raising that fare, although he raised pretty much every other one (except the student pass).

[jajuan]

• But, if those costs were not taken out of the system, CTA is paying $450 million either for a system that is an embarrassment, or as Kevin pointed out, got conned by Cubic on the issue whether the old cards would cease to work. Then throw in what Pace had to pay, including for additional Ventra vending machines, apparently because the places where Ventra cards would be available in the suburbs were not as increased as Pace was representing (only CVS and currency exchanges, for the most part). In the meantime, the fare boxes have been continually said for the last 8 years to be obsolete, and this $450 million doesn't do anything about that, as shown by the Pace and CTA procurement solicitations.
• Sure, only CTA and Pace have the sole statutory right to set fares,but you seem to want to relitigate over CTA acting in a deceptive manner in not posting the new fare chart for 3 weeks. Then you have the Pace budget announcing that the main topic at the budget hearing is abolishing all sorts of passes, but at least Pace says in that document that bank cards are as cash. Do you know if the conclusion that they are cash are because CTA and Pace wanted a revenue increase, or Cubic couldn't or wouldn't process the bank card transactions in any other way? Like I indicated before, either one is a backdoor, and legally deceptive means to get a fare increase.

I agree with Kevin that someone was sold a bill of goods on this deal. It appears that a lot of people were. I still think that the lawsuit has merit, although I said I won't predict the outcome.

I'm not trying to relitigate anything. Just pointing out that CTA, and Pace for that matter, never promised you a transfer on an unregistered debit or credit card. If you don't want to discuss that issue further then maybe you shouldn't keep harping on it. If I pay for something for something at a store with my debit card, as far as that store is concerned my card as good as cash as long as I have the funds that card represents and pretty much treated as such. So why would I assume it would be any different with the CTA? For one thing my debit card isn't issued by CTA. Now sure Kevin and others may not have had the same impression starting out but the logic behind it can still be understood based on how other organizations selling a product basically treat debit cards as cash (i.e. retailers even issuing refunds* for debit card purchases in cash) regardless of your thinking CTA should give folks something extra for using debit card that has no transit account. And again on the other point, let me be clear if I wasn't already, unless CTA has plans to stop accepting cash to pay a fare directly or to purchase fare media the cost toward transporting that cash as part of their fare collection costs was not going anywhere no matter what they themselves may have said or how anyone else may have interpreted prior statements.

*Forgot to type that word into the original post to make the point.

Edited October 16, 2013 by jajuan

[Busjack]

,,, If I pay for something for something at a store with my debit card, as far as that store is concerned my card as good as cash as long as I have the funds that card represents and pretty much treated as such. So why would I assume it would be any different with the CTA?...

Other than gas stations that post 5 cents more for credit (technically speaking, federal law says they give 5 cents discount for cash), I don't know of any store that charges one price for apples if you pay cash and another with a credit card, or says you get a free apple if you use Discover Card instead of Visa. The credit card companies give rewards, or occasionally coupons,but the merchants don't have a convoluted pricing system like the transit authorities have. I guess you do get 5% off your first purchase if you apply for a Kohls or Target credit card, but otherwise, the analogy doesn't hold water.

My point essentially was that if this were to be a truly open system, or at least save the transit authorities money, Cubic should have taken over the whole fare collection operation, as was at least originally implied, including doing away with cash fares. In that they didn't, the claimed savings for the over $450 million don't really exist, as CTA and Pace still had to pay Cubic to replace the Transit Vending Machines, even though supposedly Cubic retains title to them. All they got for the money is apparently a defective back office operation run by Cubic or First Data.

I said that this deal is starting to smell like the NABI deal, and the more people try to defend it, the more it smells. I predict that at some point, CTA will also have a lawsuit against Cubic,as well as having to defend the one against it and Cubic.

[Amtrak41]

Here in NJ, the differential is almost always 10c per gallon regardless of the price. When there is a huge sign displaying prices for 3 grades of gas, the cash price is shown (illegal in NY),. At the pump, 6 prices are shown.

Other than gas stations that post 5 cents more for credit (technically speaking, federal law says they give 5 cents discount for cash),

[jajuan]

Other than gas stations that post 5 cents more for credit (technically speaking, federal law says they give 5 cents discount for cash), I don't know of any store that charges one price for apples if you pay cash and another with a credit card, or says you get a free apple if you use Discover Card instead of Visa. The credit card companies give rewards, or occasionally coupons,but the merchants don't have a convoluted pricing system like the transit authorities have. I guess you do get 5% off your first purchase if you apply for a Kohls or Target credit card, but otherwise, the analogy doesn't hold water.

My point essentially was that if this were to be a truly open system, or at least save the transit authorities money, Cubic should have taken over the whole fare collection operation, as was at least originally implied, including doing away with cash fares. In that they didn't, the claimed savings for the over $450 million don't really exist, as CTA and Pace still had to pay Cubic to replace the Transit Vending Machines, even though supposedly Cubic retains title to them. All they got for the money is apparently a defective back office operation run by Cubic or First Data.

I said that this deal is starting to smell like the NABI deal, and the more people try to defend it, the more it smells. I predict that at some point, CTA will also have a lawsuit against Cubic,as well as having to defend the one against it and Cubic.

On the savings part of it, I was actually agreeing with you when I kept stressing that they kept paying a straight cash fare in the mix, not making a counterpoint. But I stick by my point that I'm not given anything extra for using my debit card, outside of the little rewards the bank itself and NOT the retail location might give for swiping as a credit card for shopping at a particular retailer or restaurant as enticement to spend money, so CTA deciding not to give an extra goodie for using an unregistered debit or credit card instead of cash is within their right. Their main incentive with this new system is for folks to have some form of transit account, either unregistered or registered on a Ventra card or registered on your own debit or credit card. Sure some out there don't like the idea of the transit accounts, but let's be real here. CTA's real money maker among customer generated revenues has always been the sell of passes and transit cards for all these years so why wouldn't they institute policies that makes it an incentive to use the system in a way that ensures the money maker is still there?

[BusHunter]

I think Busjack's right Ventra has too many flaws. My pass died 3-4 hours early yesterday and I had no proof it was still valid. At least one that you can show really fast to an operator. I've already seen them deny receipts, so that is basically worthless. At least in the transit card era we had a date stamp.

As far as passes I don't get why CTA charges $10 for a one day pass that's not even valid on Pace. I'd like to see how many of those get sold!! Lol!!

[jajuan]

I think Busjack's right Ventra has too many flaws. My pass died 3-4 hours early yesterday and I had no proof it was still valid. At least one that you can show really fast to an operator. I've already seen them deny receipts, so that is basically worthless. At least in the transit card era we had a date stamp.

As far as passes I don't get why CTA charges $10 for a one day pass that's not even valid on Pace. I'd like to see how many of those get sold!! Lol!!

I never denied there were flaws and even agreed that in some cases they're trying to do too much too fast. But I'm still open minded enough to see the potential as long as they keep working on fixing the flaws. And they do list PAYG as being the same as cash (with the exception of the school kids' Ventra style cards as those automatically have registered transit accounts under that kid's name apparently when issued by the school) on the new system map's fare chart so that cuts that part of the argument about intentional deception. The one exception is the 25 cents differential in bus or train fare (for boardings outside of O'Hare of course). I do agree with you and owine about their not being specific down to the minute on pass expiration like they do on the magnetic stripe ones. But after running into issues with the old cards accidentally becoming demagnetized in some rare cases I developed a habit of buying a new pass one or two days before the expiration of the old one and transferred that habit to how I handle passes on my Ventra card. And before anyone nick picks on that, no I'm not saying anyone else has to do those or should have to. It's just a habit for my own personal purposes to play it safe.

[MarioM]

As far as passes I don't get why CTA charges $10 for a one day pass that's not even valid on Pace. I'd like to see how many of those get sold!! Lol!!

When they almost doubled the cost of the one-day pass (and more than doubled the O'Hare fare at the same time) there was one and only one target: tourists. Soak the tourists, they don't know any better and even if they do, they don't vote here.

I don't know how many times I've tried to explain to (potential) visitors that the round trip fare to the museum would be under $5, but when I start talking about transfers and Transit Cards and whatever, their eyes just glaze over. But when I say that they can buy a card that lets them ride all day and not worry about how much to load on the card in advance and not have to learn how transfers work, etc, their eyes just light up and they say "I think I'll just get one of those" even if I warn them it's going to cost more.

And since the advent of Ventra, it's even worse. When you try to explain to someone that they have to first pay $5 to get the privilege of paying $2,25 and getting a $.25 transfer, they look at you like you've lost your mind. And forget trying to explain "Well, just buy a card for $5 and then go back to your hotel room and log in (or call up) and register to get your $5 back and then you can go ride to the museum."

I understand that sales of one-day passes did go down dramatically. Any regular commuter would understand that it is rarely cost-effective to buy one any more. But the allure of "just pay one price, ride all you want, you don't have to study a manual on how bus fare works" is pretty strong for tourists.

One-day passes used to work on Pace a number of years back (the RTA was paying Pace to accept them), but after the RTA subsidy ended Pace and the CTA could not agree on how to split revenue from the passes and Pace wasn't about to give out free rides and let the CTA keep all the money, so they stopped honoring the passes. After a while they agreed on the premium-priced 7-day CTA/Pace pass, but not on the lesser passes.

[Busjack]

On the savings part of it, I was actually agreeing with you when I kept stressing that they kept paying a straight cash fare in the mix, not making a counterpoint. But I stick by my point that I'm not given anything extra for using my debit card, outside of the little rewards the bank itself and NOT the retail location might give for swiping as a credit card for shopping at a particular retailer or restaurant as enticement to spend money, so CTA deciding not to give an extra goodie for using an unregistered debit or credit card instead of cash is within their right. Their main incentive with this new system is for folks to have some form of transit account, either unregistered or registered on a Ventra card or registered on your own debit or credit card. Sure some out there don't like the idea of the transit accounts, but let's be real here. CTA's real money maker among customer generated revenues has always been the sell of passes and transit cards for all these years so why wouldn't they institute policies that makes it an incentive to use the system in a way that ensures the money maker is still there?

• At McDonald's you aren't given anything extra, but they don't charge you a service charge to get a Mocha Frappe with your burger if you pay only by using the Blink Card. Like I said, show me any merchant (other than I described) that has a differential price policy depending on whether you pay cash or use plastic (again assuming that they accept plastic for all transactions).
• Their main incentive may be to get people to use transit accounts, but they are blowing smoke if they claim that the system is open, or more particularly, that they are providing a means so that the occasional user can benefit from the system. As indicated by such things as the $5 O'Hare fare, CTA's almost announced policy is to screw the occasional user,* which is one way to get a fare increase without Emanuel lying about not increasing fares, by Emanuel subsequently restricting his comment to the $2.25 fare.
• If the main incentive is to get people to establish transit accounts, why does CTA continence Cubic giving rotten customer service to supposedly its best customers? And since Cubic and First Data are administering the accounts, isn't the incentive only theirs?

___________

*See Mario's comment, which I read after posting, but succinctly summarizes the situation.

[jajuan]

• At McDonald's you aren't given anything extra, but they don't charge you a service charge to get a Mocha Frappe with your burger if you pay only by using the Blink Card. Like I said, show me any merchant (other than I described) that has a differential price policy depending on whether you pay cash or use plastic (again assuming that they accept plastic for all transactions).
• Their main incentive may be to get people to use transit accounts, but they are blowing smoke if they claim that the system is open, or more particularly, that they are providing a means so that the occasional user can benefit from the system. As indicated by such things as the $5 O'Hare fare, CTA's almost announced policy is to screw the occasional user,* which is one way to get a fare increase without Emanuel lying about not increasing fares, by Emanuel subsequently restricting his comment to the $2.25 fare.
• If the main incentive is to get people to establish transit accounts, why does CTA continence Cubic giving rotten customer service to supposedly its best customers? And since Cubic and First Data are administering the accounts, isn't the incentive only theirs?

___________

*See Mario's comment, which I read after posting, but succinctly summarizes the situation.

Ok we're getting to that point of talking past each other as I do think I acknowledged the screwups. But do point to where you're being charged more. Yeah you're not getting a transfer. Already established. But if you're speaking of the ridiculous $5 hold, I don't think anyone reported actually paying that. Only that it was there but disappeared and not charged after the $2.25 charge was completed against the debit or credit card used. And while Cubic and First Data administer the accounts, those accounts whether registered or not will soon be the only means for one to be able to purchase a pass from CTA or Pace. And the newspapers reported during the fiasco of passes increasing (but wasn't a fare increase in only Emanuel and Claypool's mind) that a majority of CTA's fare revenues comes from the sale of passes. Transit card sales take up another big chunk, so I think that makes it an incentive on CTA's part also that folks have some form of transit account to facilitate the equivalent under Ventra and not just for Cubic or First Data.

[owine]

• At McDonald's you aren't given anything extra, but they don't charge you a service charge to get a Mocha Frappe with your burger if you pay only by using the Blink Card. Like I said, show me any merchant (other than I described) that has a differential price policy depending on whether you pay cash or use plastic (again assuming that they accept plastic for all transactions).
• Their main incentive may be to get people to use transit accounts, but they are blowing smoke if they claim that the system is open, or more particularly, that they are providing a means so that the occasional user can benefit from the system. As indicated by such things as the $5 O'Hare fare, CTA's almost announced policy is to screw the occasional user,* which is one way to get a fare increase without Emanuel lying about not increasing fares, by Emanuel subsequently restricting his comment to the $2.25 fare.
• If the main incentive is to get people to establish transit accounts, why does CTA continence Cubic giving rotten customer service to supposedly its best customers? And since Cubic and First Data are administering the accounts, isn't the incentive only theirs?

___________

*See Mario's comment, which I read after posting, but succinctly summarizes the situation.

Secretary of state among other government entities charge you a convenience fee for using a credit/debit card. Property management companies charge fees to pay rent/condo fees using a credit/debit card. Convenience fees are an accepted part of the credit card processing landscape. Merchants even set a minimum for the amount you can charge.

But you're kind of making the counterpoint, credit is the same as cash. CTA wants you to use the transit account just like stores want you to use their own gift cards. They want the money up front.

The system is open. You can ride with no proprietary fare media or or account using your credit/debit card. Soon, you will be able to use your transit account with your own fare media, not their proprietary one. How is that not an open system?

[Busjack]

Ok we're getting to that point of talking past each other as I do think I acknowledged the screwups. But do point to where you're being charged more. Yeah you're not getting a transfer. Already established. But if you're speaking of the ridiculous $5 hold, I don't think anyone reported actually paying that. Only that it was there but disappeared and not charged after the $2.25 charge was completed against the debit or credit card used. And while Cubic and First Data administer the accounts, those accounts whether registered or not will soon be the only means for one to be able to purchase a pass from CTA or Pace. And the newspapers reported during the fiasco of passes increasing (but wasn't a fare increase in only Emanuel and Claypool's mind) that a majority of CTA's fare revenues comes from the sale of passes. Transit card sales take up another big chunk, so I think that makes it an incentive on CTA's part also that folks have some form of transit account to facilitate the equivalent under Ventra and not just for Cubic or First Data.

Talk about talking past people, where did you get the idea that any of my bullet points recently had anything to do with the $5 hold?

Other than that, all you are saying is that CTA has the incentive to soak any type of passenger, despite essentially Emanuel's lie.

Obviously, you don't want to counter the obvious point that CTA is not interested in making things easier for any passenger, and apparently paid $450 million to make things harder on itself.

Secretary of state among other government entities charge you a convenience fee for using a credit/debit card. Property management companies charge fees to pay rent/condo fees using a credit/debit card. Convenience fees are an accepted part of the credit card processing landscape. Merchants even set a minimum for the amount you can charge.

But you're kind of making the counterpoint, credit is the same as cash. CTA wants you to use the transit account just like stores want you to use their own gift cards. They want the money up front.

The system is open. You can ride with no proprietary fare media or or account using your credit/debit card. Soon, you will be able to use your transit account with your own fare media, not their proprietary one. How is that not an open system?

It is open in name only if the only way you can avoid being screwed is to find a train station, CVS, currency exchange or occasional Jewel, buy a card, and pay the deposit. This is also supposed to be a Pace system, but those outlets are not that prevalent in the suburbs and not necessarily near bus routes, according to the Venta map.

The SOS and Maria Pappas have an up front notice that they are charging a convenience fee. You keep forgetting that you assumed that a bank card was a cash fare, not that CTA was 3 weeks late in posting a revised fare chart. Then you said that you didn't continence idiots, but then were taken.

[owine]

Talk about talking past people, where did you get the idea that any of my bullet points recently had anything to do with the $5 hold?

Other than that, all you are saying is that CTA has the incentive to soak any type of passenger, despite essentially Emanuel's lie.

Obviously, you don't want to counter the obvious point that CTA is not interested in making things easier for any passenger, and apparently paid $450 million to make things harder on itself.

It is open in name only if the only way you can avoid being screwed is to find a train station, CVS, currency exchange or occasional Jewel, buy a card, and pay the deposit. This is also supposed to be a Pace system, but those outlets are not that prevalent in the suburbs and not necessarily near bus routes, according to the Venta map.

The SOS and Maria Pappas have an up front notice that they are charging a convenience fee. You keep forgetting that you assumed that a bank card was a cash fare, not that CTA was 3 weeks late in posting a revised fare chart. Then you said that you didn't continence idiots, but then were taken.

What do you consider truly open then?

[Busjack]

What do you consider truly open then?

Something without all these hoops through which to jump. I implied before that "a card is a card," and if there is a cost to paying with cash, that should be imposed on those who pay with coins and dollar bills.

Also, transfers with cash fares were eliminated because of the alleged fraud on the part of those who gave paper transfers to others so they could use the free third ride. You admitted that such is not the case if one pays with their identifiable card, as Cubic should be able to trace all rides one took that day.

None of you have effectively refuted my point that CTA has been engaged in deception, or at least nondisclosure from the start. I guess one should have figured out that this was not all it was cracked up to be, with the repeated statements by Pace that there would be more sales locations (although it appears there are not), which would not have been necessary if a card were a card.

A similar clue that CTA was engaged in deception of another sort was them saying to spend down existing cards, even though they said you could exchange value. Apparently, not too conveniently, though.

But this gets back to my point that it is a deceptive system if one has to check their bank statement or online Ventra account to see what they were charged. At least Maria Pappas has on the Cook County Treasurer site a whole bunch of questions like "Do you understand you will be charged a $1 convenience fee?" "Do you understand you will be charged $25 if the transaction is refused?" thus at least giving notice up front that if you don't like it, put a forever stamp on the envelope or take the payment to Chase.

But to get back to whether it is open, I doubt that it is open if the way to escape excess charges is to run your card through the slot on the TVM, and then tap it on the "tap here" to put a transit account on it, and then have to register the transfer [edit: transit] account to protect it from loss, or alternatively cough up the $5 deposit for the Ventra card.

Does any other transit authority do it this way?

[owine]

Something without all these hoops through which to jump. I implied before that "a card is a card," and if there is a cost to paying with cash, that should be imposed on those who pay with coins and dollar bills.

Also, transfers with cash fares were eliminated because of the alleged fraud on the part of those who gave paper transfers to others so they could use the free third ride. You admitted that such is not the case if one pays with their identifiable card, as Cubic should be able to trace all rides one took that day.

None of you have effectively refuted my point that CTA has been engaged in deception, or at least nondisclosure from the start. I guess one should have figured out that this was not all it was cracked up to be, with the repeated statements by Pace that there would be more sales locations (although it appears there are not), which would not have been necessary if a card were a card.

A similar clue that CTA was engaged in deception of another sort was them saying to spend down existing cards, even though they said you could exchange value. Apparently, not too conveniently, though.

But this gets back to my point that it is a deceptive system if one has to check their bank statement or online Ventra account to see what they were charged. At least Maria Pappas has on the Cook County Treasurer site a whole bunch of questions like "Do you understand you will be charged a $1 convenience fee?" "Do you understand you will be charged $25 if the transaction is refused?" thus at least giving notice up front that if you don't like it, put a forever stamp on the envelope or take the payment to Chase.

But to get back to whether it is open, I doubt that it is open if the way to escape excess charges is to run your card through the slot on the TVM, and then tap it on the "tap here" to put a transit account on it, and then have to register the transfer account to protect it from loss, or alternatively cough up the $5 deposit for the Ventra card.

Does any other transit authority do it this way?

AFAIK, no other transit system has a "bring your own media" fare system.

[Busjack]

AFAIK, no other transit system has a "bring your own media" fare system.

MTA tried out one with Citibank. Apparently the two pilots were not worth scaling up, at least yet. (Metro Magazine)

There may be a point that CTA might not have had a model to avoid the "not invented here" syndrome, but if in fact CTA was the first, it is not a good sign that incompetents were the first to try to implement it.

[owine]

MTA tried out one with Citibank. Apparently the two pilots were not worth scaling up. (Metro Magazine)

There may be a point that CTA might not have had a model to avoid the "not invented here" syndrome, but if in fact CTA was the first, it is not a good sign that incompetents were the first to try to implement it.

MTA's was just a PAYG pilot program, they never did anything with loading transit accounts or passes onto cards to my knowledge.

[Busjack]

MTA's was just a PAYG pilot program, they never did anything with loading transit accounts or passes onto cards to my knowledge.

Still proves my point that it shouldn't have been left to incompetents to try to invent the wheel.

Update: Your knowledge may not be complete, as the cited Metro Magazine article said that UTA was transitioning passes onto electronic media.

[owine]

Looks like they do have contactless payment, but not an open system. But would you prefer their system? They charge a $3 fee for issuing the card and don't offer a refund for it. They also don't let you load credit or passes onto your own debit/credit card, they only let you use your card to pay a cash fare (admittedly Ventra does not do this yet fully, but it is very obvious this is in the pipeline). And at least until March, they are giving a discount to people who use transit value effectively making the cash fare more expensive.

[Busjack]

Looks like they do have contactless payment, but not an open system. But would you prefer their system?...

In that I am not in Utah, a moot point.

It doesn't defend the mess CTA is making. For instance, the Metro Magazine article points out the cost of manufacturing the contactless cards, again a cost avoided if using an existing bank card were encouraged. Someone spent money to send 200 some Ventra cards to the reported people, and you know that that eventually comes out of the farepayers' pockets, if not directly.

[brownliner]

[*]At McDonald's you aren't given anything extra, but they don't charge you a service charge to get a Mocha Frappe with your burger if you pay only by using the Blink Card. Like I said, show me any merchant (other than I described) that has a differential price policy depending on whether you pay cash or use plastic (again assuming that they accept plastic for all transactions).

The mexican place I have lunch at occasionally gives a discount for paying cash. The antique store I bought my dresser from gave me a discount for paying cash. I've been in bars that charged different prices if you paid with a credit card. A couple commercial suppliers I deal with give a discount if you give them a check or cash. A number of hotel chains and airlines give discounts if you use the right credit card. When I was a self-employed consultant, I gave a discount if you paid at the time I provided service. In practice, that amounted to a discount for using a credit card. (The alternative was sending an invoice, and waiting 30 to 120 days for a check.)

Edit: Related, the NY MTA charges a buck for a new metro card, and gives a 5% bonus for loading more than $10 at at time. (Bonus used to be as much as 20%). They also charge a 25 cent surcharge for a single use ticket.

[jajuan]

Actually Busjack what I'm not interested in is a lot of complaining and negativity just for the sake of having the ability in doing so. At least Kevin, Bushunter, sw and a few others can say they've actually tried out the system. A few ran into some glitches that were fixed except for Bushunter's pass expiring a couple hours early. There have been concrete suggestions for how to get around some of the other stuff. But you I have yet yo see mentioning you tried things out and if something came up, give usable advice for how you got around it. Yet you're probably the loudest critic latching on to mishaps that happened to others to feed a bias you already held onto from the very start.

[Busjack]

... Yet you're probably the loudest critic latching on to mishaps that happened to others to feed a bias you already held onto from the very start.

Then go to the CTA Tattler and really get an education from the commenters there.