Metra to test Metrolinx (Toronto, ON) DMU

[Tcmetro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-JE9B_RE9M

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=157043&p=1285840#p1285832

[Busjack]

Metra may be testing it, but as the comments to the linked forum indicated, not clear what for, as it would not be compatible with current operations on existing lines (and the STAR line seems fairly dead).

Amtrak tested something like this on the Chicago-Milwaukee line, and while I saw it once, nothing developed from it.

I was also thinking Buy America Act problems, but since it is Nippon Sharyo, I suppose that if Metra were really interested, it could be assembled at the Sumitomo plant in Rochelle.

[BusHunter]

What is this all about?

Consent Agenda 16 Purchase of 160 New EMU Commuter Cars - Final.pdf

[Tcmetro]

What is this all about?

Consent Agenda 16 Purchase of 160 New EMU Commuter Cars - Final.pdf

That looks like a board document about the replacement of the Metra Electric cars, now underway...

[Busjack]

What is this all about?

Consent Agenda 16 Purchase of 160 New EMU Commuter Cars - Final.pdf

As usual, you did not read the full title, which included the term "change order." This is for the 160 ME cars, and apparently covers some contract changes related to building the last 80 shells in Rochelle.

Also, unlike CTA agenda items, the item fully said what it was about. Not to mention that it was signed by Alex Clifford, and is two years old.

The only thing relevant here (and relevant to the point I stated above) is the statement on page 5 that Nippon Sharyo/Sumitomo will begin deliveries of DMUs to SMART and Metrolinx in 2013 from the Rochelle plant:

Maybe the point of the test is that Metra is the closest commuter railroad to that Sumitomo facility.

[strictures]

Metra may be testing it, but as the comments to the linked forum indicated, not clear what for, as it would not be compatible with current operations on existing lines (and the STAR line seems fairly dead).

Amtrak tested something like this on the Chicago-Milwaukee line, and while I saw it once, nothing developed from it.

I was also thinking Buy America Act problems, but since it is Nippon Sharyo, I suppose that if Metra were really interested, it could be assembled at the Sumitomo plant in Rochelle.

I think Metra might try a different type of coach on the UP North Line.

There is almost no freight traffic on the line, except near the North Ave. yard & then all the way north at Abbot in North Chicago.

They can't put modern locomotives on this line because they weigh more than the existing motive power. But if they bought lighter weight coaches, they might be able to use lighter locomotives & thus improve the often miserable reliability of the UP North Line.

[Busjack]

I think Metra might try a different type of coach on the UP North Line.

There is almost no freight traffic on the line, except near the North Ave. yard & then all the way north at Abbot in North Chicago.

They can't put modern locomotives on this line because they weigh more than the existing motive power. But if they bought lighter weight coaches, they might be able to use lighter locomotives & thus improve the often miserable reliability of the UP North Line.

But that's a pretty unlikely place, given the heavy passenger traffic.

And this, being a DMU, means no locomotive, and if that were their intent, they would have tested it there.

[Busjack]

Update on the above: Metrolinx is using these cars for the Union Pearson Express,* not usual GO Transit commuter service. A page indicates why they have a stop in Illinois on their way from Japan to Toronto.

_________

*Maybe unlike King Richard Daley II, the Lords in Toronto figured out how to construct an airport express.

[westing]

DMUs could certainly make sense during off-peak times if Metra intended to expand service frequencies. Right now for instance the UP-N has roughly 1hr intervals from 9:55am to 4:22pm with a 2hr gap between 10:54am and 12:54pm! Increases in service intervals to every 20 minutes with a train of two or three DMUs would more than accommodate the ridership of one train of bi-levels every hour.

According to Nippon Sharyo's fact sheet, a non-cab gallery bi-level can seat 146 passengers. In my example I'll use a Stadler GTW used in Texas which is similar to Toronto's DMUs. The GTWs seat 104. Maximum designed loads with standing passengers are 246 and 200 for a Metra Gallery and GTW respectively.

I'm going to try and generously throw out estimates. Assuming all off-peak UP-N gallery trains are at full seated capacity (846 passengers for a 6 car train) you would need over 5 DMUs to make up the difference. With increased service of 20 minutes or better, a set of three DMUs (312 capacity) would more than makeup the passenger load for normal one hour intervals at a total of 936 seated passengers per hour. Thats over 90 additional seated passengers per hour.

Stadler also lists the ability to make each articulated DMU unit longer which would help with capacity. Without electrically powered trains, the additional speed in acceleration would be nice and additional doors would speed up boarding. I hope Metra seriously considers the option of expanding service frequencies on busy lines like UP-N.

[Busjack]

DMUs could certainly make sense during off-peak times if Metra intended to expand service frequencies. Right now for instance the UP-N has roughly 1hr intervals from 9:55am to 4:22pm with a 2hr gap between 10:54am and 12:54pm! Increases in service intervals to every 20 minutes with a train of two or three DMUs would more than accommodate the ridership of one train of bi-levels every hour.

According to Nippon Sharyo's fact sheet, a non-cab gallery bi-level can seat 146 passengers. In my example I'll use a Stadler GTW used in Texas which is similar to Toronto's DMUs. The GTWs seat 104. Maximum designed loads with standing passengers are 246 and 200 for a Metra Gallery and GTW respectively....

Two points:

• If Metra claims not to have the capital funding to take care of rush hour needs (as exemplified by bringing back C&NW cars it had sold off), how is it going to afford a fleet it can't use during the rush hour?*
• What is the comparative length of the two cars, for equal passenger loads? Are the platforms long enough, or are there going to have to be even more announcements of the kind "the first two cars don't open at ....?"

__________

*Update: Or the yard space to store them?

[strictures]

Two points:

• If Metra claims not to have the capital funding to take care of rush hour needs (as exemplified by bringing back C&NW cars it had sold off), how is it going to afford a fleet it can't use during the rush hour?*
• What is the comparative length of the two cars, for equal passenger loads? Are the platforms long enough, or are there going to have to be even more announcements of the kind "the first two cars don't open at ....?"

__________

*Update: Or the yard space to store them?

As far as I know, the only stations with platforms that are too short are Clybourn & Rogers Park on the UP North Line.

Supposedly, next year, construction will begin on the completely unnecessary Peterson/Ridge station that corrupt alderman Patrick O'Connor has managed to get his buddy Mike Madigan to fund, instead of money to lengthen the Clybourn & Rogers Park platform.

So while the Tribune is going after O'Connor, they seem to have forgotten about his wife Barbara, who is a real estate broker with extensive property holdings around the Peterson/Ridge station area.

Just who is this station being built for?

The C&NW closed & demolished the Kenmore station at that location 50 years ago.

[Busjack]

As far as I know, the only stations with platforms that are too short are Clybourn & Rogers Park on the UP North Line.

..

Apparently you don't ride the Milw N. which has problems at several stations (Western, Healy, Grayland, and Golf of which I am aware).

Other than that, I don't know how your rant is relevant to DMUs.

[strictures]

Apparently you don't ride the Milw N. which has problems at several stations (Western, Healy, Grayland, and Golf of which I am aware).

Other than that, I don't know how your rant is relevant to DMUs.

I do ride the Milwaukee North occasionally.

Golf could be extended in a couple of days, there's plenty of room.

They could expand the waiting room by evicting the country's smallest police station.

But I was writing about the UP North specifically, because it needs many more trains every day, especially during middays & early evening rush & because it's the only line other than the ME that has almost no freight traffic, with none from Wabansia St to North Chicago.

[Busjack]

...

Golf could be extended in a couple of days, there's plenty of room.

They could expand the waiting room by evicting the country's smallest police station.

....

But riders on the Milw N know that it runs once an hour off peak, and can schedule their trip that way.

Again you bring up irrelevancies by mentioning the waiting room (especially if you are arguing for more frequent service).

The only relevancies are (1) whether DMUs could meet a demand that isn't shown to exist, and (2) whether a DMU train can berth at the platform, if one assumes that a single level train with a certain passenger capacity is longer than a gallery train with the same capacity.

[BusHunter]

Damn is this a picture of the DMU they are testing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Sharyo_DMU

So in reading this can the DMU be retrofitted to an EMU? If so that's cool. Maybe Metra should pursue this.

http://www.upexpress.com/en/project/vehicles.aspx

[westing]

Two points:

• If Metra claims not to have the capital funding to take care of rush hour needs (as exemplified by bringing back C&NW cars it had sold off), how is it going to afford a fleet it can't use during the rush hour?*
• What is the comparative length of the two cars, for equal passenger loads? Are the platforms long enough, or are there going to have to be even more announcements of the kind "the first two cars don't open at ....?"

__________

*Update: Or the yard space to store them?

Funding is always an issue but not impossible. Local communities serviced by the Metra line could setup special transportation improvement districts to help fund procurement and operation of DMUs. For example, Kansas City is using a special assessment and sales tax to fund their new streetcar. Communities that choose not to be a part of the plan would forgo DMU service.

Each DMU at 135' is longer than a 85' Bi-level gallery coach but still shorter than a traditional 6 car train minus the engine. The length would be an issue at shorter stations but hopefully cheaper to fix than the Brown Line was.

A simple yard could be built on disused industrial property fronting the tracks while heavy maintenance could occur at existing facilities.

[Busjack]

Funding is always an issue but not impossible. Local communities serviced by the Metra line could setup special transportation improvement districts to help fund procurement and operation of DMUs. For example, Kansas City is using a special assessment and sales tax to fund their new streetcar. Communities that choose not to be a part of the plan would forgo DMU service.,,,,

But you haven't explained a reason why a suburban town (or if Nortran is still around, for instance, a group of towns) should be raising taxes for something that certainly appears unnecessary.

Chicago suburbs had MTDs (CSSMTD, Nortan, WSMTD, NWSMTD) when that was the only way to get federal funds for equipment for privately owned railroads. There is now Metra.

And with all the stink over the past 4 years about corruption at Metra, do you think that the Willow Springs or Morton Grove village boards are going to pass a local tax to subsidize something that will immediately be called a boondoggle, just because some foamers thought of it?*

"Communities that choose not to be a part of the plan would forgo DMU service.,,,," So, if one buys strictures point that the UPN needs it, which I do not, the train stops in Wilmette and Winnetka, but bypasses its regular stops in Evanston, Kenilworth, and Glencoe? Again, makes no sense.

Let's get back to the point: As the Metrolinx page I cited demonstrated:they are being tested here only as a courtesy to the Rochelle plant. They are going Japan->Rochelle->Toronto, not Japan->Toronto->Blue Island.

_______

*I don't think anyone has heard about the Toni Preckwinkle county wide sales tax increase only to meet CTA's unprioritized needs lately, for instance. Then, assuming that gets traction, suburban communities, paying but getting nothing out of that are supposed to then raise their own taxes to be sent to Metra,a corrupt, nonaccountable agency?

[Busjack]

...

So in reading this can the DMU be retrofitted to an EMU? If so that's cool. Maybe Metra should pursue this.

http://www.upexpress.com/en/project/vehicles.aspx

Let's see. NICTD has had single level electric Nippon Sharyo MU cars for about 30 years now. So, no point, other than to put a nose on one.

[BusHunter]

Let's see. NICTD has had single level electric Nippon Sharyo MU cars for about 30 years now. So, no point, other than to put a nose on one.

Yeah, but the point is you can take Metra diesel locomotive lines and convert those to DMU and then convert those to EMU. I wonder if this would qualify under the same grant that CTA successfully got for the Red line north main reconstruction? It is rebuilding an existing line to improve it and the green energy crowd would love it as those diesel locos belt out heavy exhaust smoke/emissions. It would be the future, but possibly it could put the traditional american locos in jeopardy of going extinct because it's cleaner, but there is the issue of downed electrical lines and what that does to service. Really they need a hybrid system to bypass that hiccup. I believe in England and Germany they use DMU's to haul freight, so they must have good power, but I don't know if they could handle a 100 car freight. Some of those can be in the neighborhood of 22,000 tons if they were hauling coal for instance.

[Busjack]

Yeah, but the point is you can take Metra diesel locomotive lines and convert those to DMU and then convert those to EMU....

Then why go through the half step of buying DMUs?

The South Shore proposed for the West Lake New Start using trailer cars with a combo diesel/pantograph locomotive for electric operation to Munster and diesel thereafter. Apparently Super Steel makes something like that. Also, apparently like pretty much any new start, the view is that there will never be a funding source for that.

Heck, Metra could theoretically spend maybe $2 million a car to convert gallery cars to 1200s.

However, the Metra Preliminary Budget Review says (page 23), that there are $9.7 billion in capital needs in the next ten years and only $2.6 billion in projected sources. Given this state of affairs, why do people want to blow nonexistent money on this fantasy?

If you look over the Metrolinx site, the discussed that they considered converting GO Transit commuter trains to all electric, but didn't. If it didn't pay for Ontario, which has abundant hydroelectric power, how does that pay here?

Also, a DMU means a diesel multiple unit, or instead of just an electric motor, a diesel engine to generate the electric power used by the motors in the trucks. Those are only passenger cars. The east coast railroads use electric locomotives (the South Shore used to), but never (as far as I know) hooked a coal train to a passenger train.

As I indicated, the only trial of a DMU train around here was on the Amtrak Milwaukee-Chicago run, and that didn't last long.

[BusHunter]

Some pictures have surfaced from the Metra test.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/3188-GO-Georgetown-South-Corridor-Union-Pearson-Express-(Metrolinx-U-C)?p=904919#post904919

[Busjack]

Some pictures have surfaced from the Metra test.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/3188-GO-Georgetown-South-Corridor-Union-Pearson-Express-(Metrolinx-U-C)?p=904919#post904919

What looks like high level doors with only a catwalk underneath them (especially on the 35th St.shot) confirms that they are not for here.

[BusHunter]

What looks like high level doors with only a catwalk underneath them (especially on the 35th St.shot) confirms that they are not for here.

yeah the forum linked to in the first post said they would be testing in non revenue service but I wonder why the passenger cars weren't being tested here.

[Busjack]

yeah the forum linked to in the first post said they would be testing in non revenue service but I wonder why the passenger cars weren't being tested here.

If you mean in passenger service, the answer is that they can't load them, not having stairs nor ADA lifts. Obviously, passenger cars are being tested (they are only passenger cars). Maybe it is just to figure out whether the gps can say "Now approaching Gresham" and that kind of stuff, similar to how the 5000s were tested (according to the video) to call out stations in Plattsburgh.