Nova Bus Ending US Production

[Tcmetro]

Looks like CTA is going to have to get buses from New Flyer (or someone else) now.

https://www.wcax.com/2023/06/21/nova-bus-close-plattsburgh-plant-end-bus-production-us/

[Busjack]

 

36 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

Looks like CTA is going to have to get buses from New Flyer (or someone else) now.

https://www.wcax.com/2023/06/21/nova-bus-close-plattsburgh-plant-end-bus-production-us/

Second time.

[Busjack]

7 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Not mentioned are the 6 electrics that were expected to be delivered to 103rd thus year 

I mentioned it above in the 8350s topic, but other than the one slide show, CTA hasn't said anything one way or the other. For that matter, it hasn't commented on yesterday's announcement. @Tcmetro commented on what CTA and Nova Bus could do, but no body has commented officially,

[geneking7320]

How many American manufacturers of 40ft transit buses are left [ICE, Hybrid, or battery electric]?

[Busjack]

Also, to minimize confusion, this is the official announcement. The one cited at the top focuses on local jobs because it is from a local outlet, but it makes clear that Nova Bus is leaving the U.S. Market.

[Busjack]

6 minutes ago, geneking7320 said:

How many American manufacturers of 40ft transit buses are left [ICE, Hybrid, or battery electric]?

NF, Gillig, and ENC.

Basically, the question is how many are Buy America compliant, as NF is not a U.S. company. BYD might also be, but its electric buses have not done well in comparative trials.

[artthouwill]

35 minutes ago, Busjack said:

NF, Gillig, and ENC.

Basically, the question is how many are Buy America compliant, as NF is not a U.S. company. BYD might also be, but its electric buses have not done well in comparative trials.

While New Flyer isn't an An American Company ( neither is NovaBus) it does have plants in the U.S  which would make them Buy America compliant   

To this point CTA has only purchased from New Flyer, Nova, abd Proterra.  Se will see if Gillig and ENC can make any headway  

[Busjack]

6 hours ago, artthouwill said:

While New Flyer isn't an An American Company ( neither is NovaBus) it does have plants in the U.S  which would make them Buy America compliant   

To this point CTA has only purchased from New Flyer, Nova, abd Proterra.  Se will see if Gillig and ENC can make any headway  

FYI, here is the DOT list of  eligible companies. It includes all modes, but the transit bus manufacturers are as suspected.

[Busjack]

Surfing for Nova Bus +Plattsburgh articles also turned up that Volvo Group pulled Prevost out of Plattsbugh by the end of 2022, supposedly to make more room for Nova Bus production, ?, but really because the only Buy America customer it had was MTA. Since MCI limited the number of D4000s Pace could buy because it was phasing it out, looks like the only commuter coach that may be purchased with federal funds is the D45 CRT in either lift or Low Entrance configurations. Maybe one of the additional electric buses mentioned in the RTAMS-PTO is one (see here).

[artthouwill]

9 hours ago, Busjack said:

Surfing for Nova Bus +Plattsburgh articles also turned up that Volvo Group pulled Prevost out of Plattsbugh by the end of 2022, supposedly to make more room for Nova Bus production, ?, but really because the only Buy America customer it had was MTA. Since MCI limited the number of D4000s Pace could buy because it was phasing it out, looks like the only commuter coach that may be purchased with federal funds is the D45 CRT in either lift or Low Entrance configurations. Maybe one of the additional electric buses mentioned in the RTAMS-PTO is one (see here).

For years I've been stating that Pace should have been ordering 45' coaches

  We will see if Pace finally gets with the program or will they revert back to the Duburbans? 

Besides the D45 CRTs  they could also go with an accessible J4500 VHARGE.

[Busjack]

20 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

We will see if Pace finally gets with the program or will they revert back to the Duburbans? 

Aside from whether one of the Senators from Illinois has a bus, Pace has made it fairly clear that it uses motor coaches on premium routes. I-55 is a premium fare route, I-90 is not.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Aside from whether one of the Senators from Illinois has a bus, Pace has made it fairly clear that it uses motor coaches on premium routes. I-55 is a premium fare route, I-90 is not.

Which is true, but let's not pretend that at least two of the first Axxess Suburbans didn't see service on i - 55.   We're discussing this before about using Suburbans on so called Premium Service.  I only mentioned that because Pace seems hell bent on purchasing 40' coaches even though the national trend has been to purchase 45- coaches.  Prevost and VanHool have been out of the 40' game and MCI IS finally getting out of it also.  The question is whether Pace will finally get 45' coaches.

[Busjack]

12 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I only mentioned that because Pace seems hell bent on purchasing 40' coaches even though the national trend has been to purchase 45- coaches.

Can't really say that. Pace basically takes what it can get, and this time around, MCI said that despite what was in the solicitation, D4000s would only be built into 2024. And going way back, when Pace was  ramping up I-55 service, it rented 45-foot motor coaches.

My only point is that unless someone else enters the motor coach market, this is going to be a sole-source procurement.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, andrethebusman99 said:

Me thinks Nova realizes that thanks to the Troubles most US transit systems are in financial trouble and there might not be enough demand for new buses for a long time if ever to support three major builders. This does not seem to have affected Canada as much, but then Gillig does not sell to Canada.

Considering that Nova Bus got big BEB contracts from Toronto and Quebec, half paid by the national government, with the possibility of add-ons, it doesn't need the U.S.

[andrethebusman99]

On 6/24/2023 at 6:37 PM, Busjack said:

Can't really say that. Pace basically takes what it can get, and this time around, MCI said that despite what was in the solicitation, D4000s would only be built into 2024. And going way back, when Pace was  ramping up I-55 service, it rented 45-foot motor coaches.

My only point is that unless someone else enters the motor coach market, this is going to be a sole-source procurement.

Prevost built 330 coaches for New York MTA last two years, not first batch either. So MCI does have competition for commuter cruisers.

[andrethebusman99]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:55 PM, Busjack said:

Considering that Nova Bus got big BEB contracts from Toronto and Quebec, half paid by the national government, with the possibility of add-ons, it doesn't need the U.S.

More importantly, too much competition in US. New Flyer is much bigger in US than Canada, Gillig is US only. ENC is getting into big buses in US also now. In Canada Nova has Quebec sowed up, also Ontario. NFIL mostly prairie provinces. Why mess with a situation where you are becoming an underdog when you are top dog elsewhere?

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, andrethebusman99 said:

Prevost built 330 coaches for New York MTA last two years, not first batch either. So MCI does have competition for commuter cruisers.

If you had read above, Prevost pulled out of Plattsburgh, so it is no longer BAA compliant, and hence MTA isn't getting any more.

[Busjack]

5 hours ago, andrethebusman99 said:

More importantly, too much competition in US. New Flyer is much bigger in US than Canada, Gillig is US only. ENC is getting into big buses in US also now. In Canada Nova has Quebec sowed up, also Ontario. NFIL mostly prairie provinces. Why mess with a situation where you are becoming an underdog when you are top dog elsewhere?

I still figure why mess around with 5 bus contracts from major U.S. TAs (WMATA, MTA), when it can get big contracts backed by the Canadian national government (see Nova's news page). Also, there is a pattern (CTA, RGRTA), where Nova wanted funds in addition to those in the initial board resolutions on the exercise of options, which indicates it has trouble  controlling costs.

[artthouwill]

53 minutes ago, andrethebusman99 said:

Prevost built 330 coaches for New York MTA last two years, not first batch either. So MCI does have competition for commuter cruisers.

Unfortunately the commuter coach market is dominated by MCI and Prevost was only able to get MTA to buy its commuter coaches.  That contract didn't help them make any headway in penetrating that market segment.  In fact, in the motorcoach industry, I believe VanHool as caught up to, if not surpassed Prevost in U S. Motorcoach sales.  Even having the Plattsburgh plant hasn't helped Prevost.  Perhaps that's why they are pulling out  

[Busjack]

5 hours ago, artthouwill said:

... Prevost was only able to get MTA to buy its commuter coaches.  That contract didn't help them make any headway in penetrating that market segment.  ...  Even having the Plattsburgh plant hasn't helped Prevost.  Perhaps that's why they are pulling out  

From the article I cited above, that's exactly what happened:

Quote

The company plans to finish the last part of a 700-bus order by the end of the year for MTA. Aside from that contract that began in 2014, the current volume is very low.

“With the pandemic, we realized that some bids that we were expecting, either had been postponed or reduced in volume,” Cantin said.

Additionally, new bids are requesting electric products. Prevost recently launched an electrification program but doesn’t yet offer electric coaches. 

 

[Busjack]

Despite the speculation above, it looks like CTA is looking to complete the purchase before Nova Bus leaves:

From 2024 Budget, page 81 of pdf:

Quote

Title: Purchase up to 500 buses - Options
Budget: $107M
Core Requirement: Maintain and Improve Safety Reliability.
Description: Funding provides for the procurement of up to 500 buses to replace the 1000-Series buses that have been in service since 2006-2007. The contract consists of a base order for 100 buses and option(s) to acquire an additional 500 buses. The base order is complete, and all buses are in service, up to 200 of the option buses will be delivered through 2023, another 200 option buses in 2024, and remaining 100 buses is scheduled for delivery in 2025.

On the other hand, I don't see anything about that slide about the LSFes.

[Busjack]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:04 PM, YoungBusLover said:

#8693 is at SS.

 

On 2/23/2024 at 1:26 PM, YoungBusLover said:

#8687 is at SS.

 

6 hours ago, YoungBusLover said:

#8651 is at SS.

I've got a feeling what's happening, since it happened to me twice, the latest when the company closed its local office, but said the employees had to stay until the end to get their severance pay, it turned out because there was still work that had to get out the door. Nova Bus knows that it has to get approx. 300 CTA buses out the door before closing shop, so it sped it up.

I don't know what other employment opportunities workers in Plattsburgh have (reportedly Alstom needs workers there), but in the case I mentioned above, those who left early to go to a competitor down the street soon were laid off there, too.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Unless there are developments i've missed (in which case, please let me know), CTA has been waiting for ~3 years for just 6 LFSe+ buses from Nova. CNG buses for a system that doesn't use CNG is also a non-starter.

 

On 10/19/2023 at 5:23 PM, Busjack said:

Despite the speculation above, it looks like CTA is looking to complete the purchase before Nova Bus leaves:

From 2024 Budget, page 81 of pdf:

On the other hand, I don't see anything about that slide about the LSFes.

I don't recall exactly where it was previously discussed (certainly not under SF), but it was as I said in the SF topic--the only reference to that grant was the one slide, and the CT Board never approved the contract. nor approved a change order to make 6 8350s electric. With Nova closing shop in the US after finishing this order, you're waiting for nothing.