Interesting article about the Bus Mechanics

[busfan]

Very interesting article about what is going on with the buses. A lot of interesting comments posted to.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/transportatio...S-bus04.article

[Busjack]

This was also in the news last night. Whenever a union president gets on the tube, you wonder if he is just trying to scare people to protect jobs (sort of like all the union officials that said that the track inspectors were scapegoats until the NTSB demonstrated that they weren't doing their jobs). Instead of generalities, I would rather have heard specific examples of buses going out unsafe, what were the defects, and why the mechanics released them.

At this point I would tend to agree with the point that newer buses shouldn't need as many repairs. However, the picture gives you something to add to "The Breakdown Thread." Clearly, the real oldies will be gone by the end of the year, and if the new ones need as much maintenance, something is wrong.

Of course, I'm not in the garage, so if someone else has some specifics, we'll listen to them.

[BUSANGEL#1]

I am a witness when it comes to cta putting bad buses out. My uncle used to be a Mechanic Supervisor managing the bad buses at Beverly before 1988 and at 103rd (after Beverly closed). When rush hour came and buses were needed, he was told to put out buses with bad breaks, engine/transmission problems, and buses without heat or ac out on routes. Most of the times he said that there was really no choice because "good" buses were not plenty. As long as the fare boxes collected the revenue it was ok to put out bad buses.

[jajuan]

I am a witness when it comes to cta putting bad buses out. My uncle used to be a Mechanic Supervisor managing the bad buses at Beverly before 1988 and at 103rd (after Beverly closed). When rush hour came and buses were needed, he was told to put out buses with bad breaks, engine/transmission problems, and buses without heat or ac out on routes. Most of the times he said that there was really no choice because "good" buses were not plenty. As long as the fare boxes collected the revenue it was ok to put out bad buses.

Ok, I'm not doubting you but that was 20 years ago. With the way the feds are watching after the L derailments you'd have to think things have gotten better than that. Plus with the newest and slightly older newer buses having computers onboard that would indicate problems, I doubt there are drivers out there who are willing to knowingly take out a bad bus and risk their own safety let alone others. What I found irritating yesterday morning when I saw the story on WGN, they told people during their traffic update that public transit is recommended because of icy conditions and ten minutes later they broadcast this story of alleged unsafe buses. With most of the bus fleet now consisting of models from this decade, I find the possibility less likely than I may have considered a few years ago. I also found it interesting that Channel 7 displayed shots of Kedzie garage for their broadcast of this story when Kedzie currently has the some of the best mechanics in the fleet as evidenced by how well NABIs work there compared to elsewhere.

[busfan]

Even thought the buses are new, they still require the same maintenance. Oil Change, Shock Replacement, Wheel Bearings, Rods, Air Dryers, Trans Oil Change, and many others. Those are done by mileage. Buses used to be inspected at 4000 miles. Now 1 man at CTA decided that since they done have enough people and they have more buses, we will inspect them at 5000 miles. What happens when you inspect something less often ? More defects between inspections ! Drivers wilingly taking out bad buses ? They have no clue the bus is bad. When schedule has to be made, that bus in the back with the broken shock, cracked window, rear door touch bar not working, trans slipping, etc. goes right to schedule. The managers tell the mechanic "take it up front". The operator has no clue whats wrong with the bus. Every new 1000 bus that came in had broken shocks. The new buses have less defects but the problem is the way these buses are designed it takes 4 times longer to fix them then the old buses. The computer does not tell you that the shocks are broke, the bus leaks air, it has bad brakes, the doors dont work etc. The computer mainly monitors the engine and its emission programs. Hell, not 1 new bus has the "brake wear indicator" working on it. The feds watching ? They never come around unless there is a major disaster. FTA mandates CTA not let a bus on the street that is more than 500 miles over its due inspection. That ruls is broken all the time. Buses were checked at 4000 miles, CTA raised it to 5000 miles. And they still cant keep up because they have to many buses and not enough mechanics.

[trainman8119]

Heck yeah I believe the article. For all we know (and I am not saying this

is true), the New Flyers could be mechanically junk...yet you would never

know that unless you are an insider. It would not surprise me that bad stuff

is sent out on the street. It happened all the time at Pace. If we had a bad

bus and they did trade it out, it would go back to the garage and sit in line

to go back out. It would not be looked at until it was time to be looked at,

if then. There were always buses with bad trans, bad brakes....all kinds of

stuff. New, old, didn't make a difference.

Never blame mechanical for a delay...they can do no wrong. But time

and time again, it happens, stuff does not get fixed. These are management

dictated events. I have no doubt CTA has the same types of fingerpointing

we had at Pace and now have at Metra. And...in a time of cost cutting and job cuts,

bet on it even more that shortcuts are being taken.

[greenstreet]

I am a witness when it comes to cta putting bad buses out. My uncle used to be a Mechanic Supervisor managing the bad buses at Beverly before 1988 and at 103rd (after Beverly closed). When rush hour came and buses were needed, he was told to put out buses with bad breaks, engine/transmission problems, and buses without heat or ac out on routes. Most of the times he said that there was really no choice because "good" buses were not plenty. As long as the fare boxes collected the revenue it was ok to put out bad buses.

Not to pick on kids or anything, but by definition, an 18-year-old can't be a"witness" to anything that happened 20 years ago - unless you were here in a previous life.

You can relate anecdotal evidence that your uncle shared with you. However, not sure what that adds to a discussion about current practices when the practices you cite occurred before most, if not all, of CTA's current bus maintenance management team even worked there.

EDIT:

I don't mean to minimize concerns about existing buses and practices, though :

Every new 1000 bus that came in had broken shocks. The new buses have less defects but the problem is the way these buses are designed it takes 4 times longer to fix them then the old buses.

This is a concern. You would think they would stop accepting buses that were consistently that defective. To accept 900+ buses with defects seems inexcusable.

[Busjack]

Every new 1000 bus that came in had broken shocks. The new buses have less defects but the problem is the way these buses are designed it takes 4 times longer to fix them then the old buses. ...Hell, not 1 new bus has the "brake wear indicator" working on it.

This is troubling. There were all the reports about NABIs having problems, and you would think that New Flyer, being apparently the biggest bus assembler left in North America and using a design that it at least 13 years old, would get it right by now. But maybe this shows what happens when most of your work is government subsidized (indirectly, at least, but whether bus assemblers work depends on whether the feds are giving transit money), and, as indicated in Proposer 1's reply to the RFP, are unwilling to take responsibility for third party vendor components, which most of a bus, other than the shell, is.

Admittedly, periodic maintenance is needed, and the question is whether we can believe Huberman in saying that fleet consolidation and kits made it easier, or he was just putting window dressing on your point that the interval has increased.

[sw4400]

Every new 1000 bus that came in had broken shocks.

You got examples? I ride the 1000's quite frequently(1400's,1500's,1600's, even some 1700's and 1800's occasionally), and I've never had a very bumpy ride that would indicate broken shocks(I recently rode a 146 Inner Drive/Michigan Express bus #15xx, and the ride was good on LSD, no jarring on bumps or anything. Just the usual effects of running over little bumps in the road, nothing serious enough to warrant a broken shock issue.

If this is true, we got 1,030 big problems to deal with. But let's go to the source.... CTA Bus Drivers who drive the 1000-Series D40LF's, help us out. You spend many hours driving these buses. Tell us what your experience is.... do these buses indeed have bad shocks?

[jajuan]

Even thought the buses are new, they still require the same maintenance. Oil Change, Shock Replacement, Wheel Bearings, Rods, Air Dryers, Trans Oil Change, and many others. Those are done by mileage. Buses used to be inspected at 4000 miles. Now 1 man at CTA decided that since they done have enough people and they have more buses, we will inspect them at 5000 miles. What happens when you inspect something less often ? More defects between inspections ! Drivers wilingly taking out bad buses ? They have no clue the bus is bad. When schedule has to be made, that bus in the back with the broken shock, cracked window, rear door touch bar not working, trans slipping, etc. goes right to schedule. The managers tell the mechanic "take it up front". The operator has no clue whats wrong with the bus. Every new 1000 bus that came in had broken shocks. The new buses have less defects but the problem is the way these buses are designed it takes 4 times longer to fix them then the old buses. The computer does not tell you that the shocks are broke, the bus leaks air, it has bad brakes, the doors dont work etc. The computer mainly monitors the engine and its emission programs. Hell, not 1 new bus has the "brake wear indicator" working on it. The feds watching ? They never come around unless there is a major disaster. FTA mandates CTA not let a bus on the street that is more than 500 miles over its due inspection. That ruls is broken all the time. Buses were checked at 4000 miles, CTA raised it to 5000 miles. And they still cant keep up because they have to many buses and not enough mechanics.

If these buses had a defect that bad when they came in why not bring up the concern when they first started arriving and not after two years when they're 90% delivered. I too ride 1000s quite frequently, living near both Chicago and Kedzie garages which have more 1000s than anything else. I haven't experienced anything either to suggest there was an issue of bad shocks. If CTA is breaking the rules as much as you say, then report it especially when it involves people's safety and not wait when the issue of maintenance lapses comes up during a dispute with the bosses over layoffs when people are more likely to take it with a grain of salt. I don't take the issue lightly either but in this context people are more likely to chalk it up to disgruntled mechanics who are upset about recent layoffs. If these things are going on then we should be hearing about it sooner, not when a labor issue arises when people are more inclined to think it's only being brought up to stick it to the boss because of that issue. I am by no means giving CTA a pass because I do think they need to be making more upper level cuts rather than making even more cuts in the maintenance staff. Also if we're going to be given examples of short cuts or lapses in bus maintenance, like everyone else I think those examples should be recent examples, not instances from two decades ago and definitely not hearsay of what's alleged to have happen instead of first hand experience seen with your own eyes. So yes, drivers who are members of this forum, please do give us your incite on this issue. I'd especially like to hear from those drivers assigned to garages that have 1000s so they can tell us if they themselves experienced any serious problems with them since it's been put forward that they've all been coming in with bad schocks. Since this is a serious issue involving your and our safety, please give serious replies and not just your biases from having an affinity for the high floor models that are currently being retired. If you're going to discuss your experience with the high floors please share with us any problems you may have had with them.

[jacksone44]

You got examples? I ride the 1000's quite frequently(1400's,1500's,1600's, even some 1700's and 1800's occasionally), and I've never had a very bumpy ride that would indicate broken shocks(I recently rode a 146 Inner Drive/Michigan Express bus #15xx, and the ride was good on LSD, no jarring on bumps or anything. Just the usual effects of running over little bumps in the road, nothing serious enough to warrant a broken shock issue.

If this is true, we got 1,030 big problems to deal with. But let's go to the source.... CTA Bus Drivers who drive the 1000-Series D40LF's, help us out. You spend many hours driving these buses. Tell us what your experience is.... do these buses indeed have bad shocks?

I have a hard time believing that 900+ delivered D40LF's came with broken shocks.....

[Chicago49xxx]

Thats an interesting topic since i drive new flyers almost everyday out of chicago. I would say the our mechanics at our garage do a fairly good job at maintaining our buses. I think you all need to realize that no bus rides or handles the same even if they are the same series. The other most important thing to note it can vary greatly from operator to operator what they consider to be a bad/defective bus. Ill give a perfect example, i had relieve another operator generally i always ask them how is the bus. He told me i had to fight with the steering wheel. The power steering was going out making it impossible to make left turns. Now to me that's a bus that needs to be taken off the street i called control for a new bus, which is something he should have done before i even got the bus. There are times where i have had bad buses but because im only going one way or its a short trip i just dealt with the problem. A lot of operators either don't report the problem there having with the bus or forget to when pulling in so the mechanic has no ideal there is a defect with the bus unless its major. Just tonight i had got bus 1376 from a operator as soon as i got two blocks down the street i knew the bus had a front suspension problem i not a mechanic nothing but the ride was horrible i was literally bouncing up and down in my seat. He told me it was a good bus. He had to have known something was wrong with the bus but i guess to him it wasn't bad enough to take the bus off the street. I personally think all operators should report the slightest defect so it doesn't become a major issue.

[BUSANGEL#1]

Not to pick on kids or anything, but by definition, an 18-year-old can't be a"witness" to anything that happened 20 years ago - unless you were here in a previous life.

You can relate anecdotal evidence that your uncle shared with you. However, not sure what that adds to a discussion about current practices when the practices you cite occurred before most, if not all, of CTA's current bus maintenance management team even worked there.

EDIT:

I don't mean to minimize concerns about existing buses and practices, though :

This is a concern. You would think they would stop accepting buses that were consistently that defective. To accept 900+ buses with defects seems inexcusable.

FYI: My uncle didn't retire till 2006. From 97-06 he would take me to work with him whenever I wasnt in school. I have seen pretty much some of the worse crap as far as cta buses. Nothing has changed since 06 but the decrease in mechanics which has made the problem worse. Even now with a mechanic friend @ 103, a aunt @ 77th and a 1st cousin @ FG I still know how bad it is and occasions I visit them and see it. The situation is ugly.

[BUSANGEL#1]

Even thought the buses are new, they still require the same maintenance. Oil Change, Shock Replacement, Wheel Bearings, Rods, Air Dryers, Trans Oil Change, and many others. Those are done by mileage. Buses used to be inspected at 4000 miles. Now 1 man at CTA decided that since they done have enough people and they have more buses, we will inspect them at 5000 miles. What happens when you inspect something less often ? More defects between inspections ! Drivers wilingly taking out bad buses ? They have no clue the bus is bad. When schedule has to be made, that bus in the back with the broken shock, cracked window, rear door touch bar not working, trans slipping, etc. goes right to schedule. The managers tell the mechanic "take it up front". The operator has no clue whats wrong with the bus. Every new 1000 bus that came in had broken shocks. The new buses have less defects but the problem is the way these buses are designed it takes 4 times longer to fix them then the old buses. The computer does not tell you that the shocks are broke, the bus leaks air, it has bad brakes, the doors dont work etc. The computer mainly monitors the engine and its emission programs. Hell, not 1 new bus has the "brake wear indicator" working on it. The feds watching ? They never come around unless there is a major disaster. FTA mandates CTA not let a bus on the street that is more than 500 miles over its due inspection. That ruls is broken all the time. Buses were checked at 4000 miles, CTA raised it to 5000 miles. And they still cant keep up because they have to many buses and not enough mechanics.

You are absolutely correct and you hit the point. New buses dont mean new problems. A lot of people just dont know the madness @ the garages when a jacked up bus has to go out. In some cases these buses are out all day and take more abuse from city streets, weather, disrespectful customers (who sometimes damage conditions of equipment), and more mileage.

[busfan]

If these buses had a defect that bad when they came in why not bring up the concern when they first started arriving and not after two years when they're 90% delivered. I don't take the issue lightly either but in this context people are more likely to chalk it up to disgruntled mechanics who are upset about recent layoffs. If these things are going on then we should be hearing about it sooner, not when a labor issue arises when people are more inclined to think it's only being brought up to stick it to the boss because of that issue.

1st off..... buses are delivered to the garages and the 1st inspection is done at 5000 miles. When you get deliverys of 2-4 buses a day, and they dont get inspected until they get 5000 miles on them, by that time almost all the buses are delivered by the time the 1st bus comes up for inspection and then its to late. The rear shocks all leaked oil. It might not have been that noticeable to most people riding a bus since it didnt make any noises. The right front shocks also broke on about 50% of the buses. That would make a loud banging noise. When an operator notices an unusual noise they call it in and the bus is taken to the garage and repaired.

2nd....... Its not a matter of upset mechanics getting back at CTA right now. The Mechanics always did care about the buses and the publics safety.. The problem is the people and reporters that report articles in the papers and Tv only report the good things about CTA. This is the 1st time that a paper has reported something that dont put CTA on a pedistal. The reporters and papers never cared to post anything negative about CTA. The Unions have notified them many times about situations going on and it was never made public. My neighbor is a Mechanic at Kedzie Garage and has worked at 2 other garages in his 15 years at CTA. Sure all the mechanics worry about their jobs. CTA is always talking about saving the public money. Does it make sense to have a warrenty on a bus, but keep the bus held in the garage out of service for 1 to 2 weeks waiting for the manufacturer to come repair the bus ? And then they come and the part is taken from the garage stockroom ! Then the workorder shows that CTA paid for the labor on that item to be replaced. Is that saving money ? Or is that a case of "double dipping". Remember now.... the federal government pays for the bus parts so what do you think ? The Mechanics care about the public more than people know......

[Busjack]

FYI: My uncle didn't retire till 2006. From 97-06 he would take me to work with him whenever I wasnt in school. I have seen pretty much some of the worse crap as far as cta buses. Nothing has changed since 06 but the decrease in mechanics which has made the problem worse. Even now with a mechanic friend @ 103, a aunt @ 77th and a 1st cousin @ FG I still know how bad it is and occasions I visit them and see it. The situation is ugly.

FYI: If CTA is letting 7 year olds into the mechanical area of the garages, then there really is a problem. Is your dead uncle the one giving you the inaccurate bus delivery sheets? :P

[Busjack]

The problem is the people and reporters that report articles in the papers and Tv only report the good things about CTA. This is the 1st time that a paper has reported something that dont put CTA on a pedistal [sic].

Where have you been? Other that Hilkevitch, who is too lazy too look behind a press release, there were the stories about the track inspectors (including interviewing Big Baby, who said he was going to fight to get his job back, even though the arbitrator said no, which ends it), and the press given to the Auditor General's report. The article about how Huberman brought in the army of PowerPoint aides? Also, all the press in favor of Sheila Nix saying that the fare hike wasn't necessary. Furthermore, the Rapid Transit union leader got all the press about how he was going to strike, until the Gov. calmed him down. Thus, the union guys can get to the press when they want to.

As I said, I can't speak concerning what goes on the in the garage. However, it is obvious from the 4019 pictures that New Flyer has a quality assurance procedure, and would send a bus to DD for repairs rather than release it.

[cta 5555]

Just last night i had 1079. when i hit a bump it bang very lond. I have had alot of 1000s doing that so whats that tell u about the shocks.

[Busjack]

Just last night i had 1079. when i hit a bump it bang very lond. I have had alot of 1000s doing that so whats that tell u about the shocks.

or the bump?

[jajuan]

Just last night i had 1079. when i hit a bump it bang very lond. I have had alot of 1000s doing that so whats that tell u about the shocks.

Nothing because you don't say how big the bump is. Is it a tiny bump or a crater of a bump. Roosevelt, which I happen to live near, is notorious for getting bumps from the brutal winter conditions and temperature shifts that come from Chicago winters. The 12 Roosevelt uses a lot of 1000s and almost all that I rode handled those bumps with no problems. The only time I heard a pretty loud bang or thud is if the bump were a big one left immediate after some type of maintenance (water main, gas main, etc) were done at that location and new asphalt hadn't been applied yet at that spot where the maintenance was done.

[jajuan]

Where have you been? Other that Hilkevitch, who is too lazy too look behind a press release, there were the stories about the track inspectors (including interviewing Big Baby, who said he was going to fight to get his job back, even though the arbitrator said no, which ends it), and the press given to the Auditor General's report. The article about how Huberman brought in the army of PowerPoint aides? Also, all the press in favor of Sheila Nix saying that the fare hike wasn't necessary. Furthermore, the Rapid Transit union leader got all the press about how he was going to strike, until the Gov. calmed him down. Thus, the union guys can get to the press when they want to.

As I said, I can't speak concerning what goes on the in the garage. However, it is obvious from the 4019 pictures that New Flyer has a quality assurance procedure, and would send a bus to DD for repairs rather than release it.

I have to agree here. The Chicago media is notorious for looking in and putting bad press where the job isn't getting done by entities funded partially or completely by public tax dollars. Another example is the previous CTA president Frank Kruesi. With him being so despised by Springfield, it was being put out before his departure that he had to go because he was so ineffective in getting needed funding for transit in the Chicago area especially with his arrogant attitude that CTA should get the priority because it was more important than the suburban agencies in contrast to after he was gone how they worked together last year to put the spotlight on how Illinois has been underfunding transit for years. There were even Tribune stories printed on how even though he was crying for money, Kruesi was hiring more bureaucratic pencil pushers who were making in excess of $100,000. So the press about CTA management has not been completely rosy as contended. Also as Busjack points out, the photo evidence that 4019 was rejected and sent to DD for repairs shows that these buses aren't coming in without getting inspected. So I still say and stand by my point that if there are lapses that shouldn't be, report them as they occur without delay.

[busfan]

Im sure the buses are coming in are inspected. A nice long ride on the expressway to CTA garages are one thing. A shock will not break or show wear until its put in use on the city streets. Just like Im sure Nabi did a lot of quality work until the cracked frames started showing up 6 months after they came in the garages. When them buses leave for delivery and the way they get to the garage are 2 different things. Sure eveything looks great at the end of the assembly line, but put it on the road for a few thousand miles and see what happens.

[busfan]

there were the stories about the track inspectors (including interviewing Big Baby, who said he was going to fight to get his job back, even though the arbitrator said no, which ends it), and the press given to the Auditor General's report.

If Im not mistaken I believe this is the same incident where the NTSB found that CTA track inspectors are required to inspect xxx amount of miles of track per day..... And the NTSB ruled that it was imposible to do a quality inspection when there is a "quota" of how much track per day has to be inspected. Kinda like the bus situation now. CTA has a "quota" per day. The more buses they get per garage, the higher the quota is to keep up with the "inspection mileage". Is it a quality inspection or just "keeping up with numbers" game.

[Busjack]

If Im not mistaken I believe this is the same incident where the NTSB found that CTA track inspectors are required to inspect xxx amount of miles of track per day..... And the NTSB ruled that it was imposible to do a quality inspection when there is a "quota" of how much track per day has to be inspected. Kinda like the bus situation now. CTA has a "quota" per day. The more buses they get per garage, the higher the quota is to keep up with the "inspection mileage". Is it a quality inspection or just "keeping up with numbers" game.

I suggest you read the NTSB report yourself, as it speaks for itself. I don't agree with your interpretation, especially around page 40 where it said that "a deficient safety culture existed at the CTA"--not that the CTA was enforcing standards or quotas. While they did say "Track inspectors in the Dearborn Subway did not have sufficient time allotted for inspecting all of their assigned territory twice a week as prescribed," it also says about pages 15 and 16 that the inspectors only put in about 6 hours of work a day (including an hour for lunch) and falsified the records saying they had inspected the whole line when they could not.

So, if you are defending the falsification of records, let us know.

The answer seems to be what jajuan says--if you have a defective bus, write it up.

And as far as workers having to meet productivity standards--apparently you never worked for private industry. Government is starting to learn that there are limits on resources.

[sw4400]

I rode #11 Lincoln today, and both bus operators have said the #1000-Series New Flyers they had were great. They said they had no problem with the shocks on them. Although the operator on #1507 had to override the rear doors due to them opening after a rider left, but not closing back up.