CTA roll sign...

[Guest ctafan630]

Which route today has the most destination/terminal combinations. Would it be the 151 with all the different short term combinations?

[Busjack]

Which route today has the most destination/terminal combinations. Would it be the 151 with all the different short term combinations?

It is hard to tell, since the back of the June 2014 map doesn't even acknowledge Belmont-Halsted.

I suppose one would have to go through all the short routes for evening service, weekend service, 146 at rush going either to Grace or Berwyn, 79 and 87 going to either Western or Cicero, etc.Stuff like 146 (truncated at both ends) and 82 (does it go to Lincolnwood Town Center or all the way into Little Village?) seem up there. Then throw in the school trips.

For garage trips, one would need signs for all the points that cross the garage coordinates, i.e. something and Ashland, something and Vincennes, something and 79th, something and Foster, something and Kedzie.

Definitely, there are fewer than when the 1969 roll that was posted was in effect.

[jajuan]

It is hard to tell, since the back of the June 2014 map doesn't even acknowledge Belmont-Halsted.

I suppose one would have to go through all the short routes for evening service, weekend service, 146 at rush going either to Grace or Berwyn, 79 and 87 going to either Western or Cicero, etc.Stuff like 146 (truncated at both ends) and 82 (does it go to Lincolnwood Town Center or all the way into Little Village?) seem up there. Then throw in the school trips.

For garage trips, one would need signs for all the points that cross the garage coordinates, i.e. something and Ashland, something and Vincennes, something and 79th, something and Foster, something and Kedzie.

Definitely, there are fewer than when the 1969 roll that was posted was in effect.

I think the stopped acknowledging things like the 151 Belmont-Halsted trips on the back of the maps when they started saying things like 'Always check the destination signs, Not all buses go to the end of the line. Also some routes have branches.' in the Bus section of the Service Overview instead of as part of the 'First Bus/Last Bus' section. Though the 'First Bus/Last Bus' section did also used to state that section only reflected trips that go to the end of the line, but they removed that from maps of recent years.

[Guest ctafan630]

I think the stopped acknowledging things like the 151 Belmont-Halsted trips on the back of the maps when they started saying things like 'Always check the destination signs, Not all buses go to the end of the line. Also some routes have branches.' in the Bus section of the Service Overview instead of as part of the 'First Bus/Last Bus' section. Though the 'First Bus/Last Bus' section did also used to state that section only reflected trips that go to the end of the line, but they removed that from maps of recent years.

While, they have stopped acknowledging it on the map, the 151 to Belmont/Halsted destination is still used for some runs. The 151 uses destinations the following: Union Station, Water Tower, Foster, Belmont/Sheridan??, Belmont/Halsted, Foster, Clark/Devon.

Is there a route that has more terminating points?

[jajuan]

While, they have stopped acknowledging it on the map, the 151 to Belmont/Halsted destination is still used for some runs. The 151 uses destinations the following: Union Station, Water Tower, Foster, Belmont/Sheridan??, Belmont/Halsted, Foster, Clark/Devon.

Is there a route that has more terminating points?

As Busjack pointed out, without the system map acknowledging all the short trips there may be for any given route that has them, it's a challenging, time-consuming, and exhaustive venture to find out. You basically have to go through all the individual route schedules as well as account for any possibilities of a route having pullin trips that terminate along that route at a cross street that runs at or near where a garage is located it the route is assigned to it. If you got the time to do all that and take notes of everything you found for each individual route, then you'll have your answer.

[Busjack]

As Busjack pointed out, without the system map acknowledging all the short trips there may be for any given route that has them, it's a challenging, time-consuming, and exhaustive venture to find out. You basically have to go through all the individual route schedules as well as account for any possibilities of a route having pullin trips that terminate along that route at a cross street that runs at or near where a garage is located it the route is assigned to it. If you got the time to do all that and take notes of everything you found for each individual route, then you'll have your answer.

Either that, or sit on Bus Tracker all day and when getting the Route Progress graphs, see all the variations in the pulldowns over a 24 hour period. Like this:

[jajuan]

Either that, or sit on Bus Tracker all day and when getting the Route Progress graphs, see all the variations in the pulldowns over a 24 hour period. Like this:

146.jpg

Yes that two. (By the way, 146 at certain times will have two pulldown listings for Berwyn/Broadway, one of which I think is to account for northbound buses that get to the end of the line and then are going to deadhead to NP instead of heading back southbound).

[andrethebusman]

Yes that two. (By the way, 146 at certain times will have two pulldown listings for Berwyn/Broadway, one of which I think is to account for northbound buses that get to the end of the line and then are going to deadhead to NP instead of heading back southbound).

146 at this point is probably the champion for variations. Normal terminal NB is Broadway/Berwyn, but some (but not all) pullins end et Foster/Broadway. Alternate midday trips end at Marine/Wilson, alternate PM rush trips at Lake Shore/Grace. SB most end at Planetarium, a few early morning trips at Roosevelt/Wabash, many AM rush at Congress/State to either pullin or deadhead back to Marine/Bittersweet (Irving Park) or Marine/Montrose. A large number of PM rush trips deadhead back from Broadway/Berwyn to Randolph/State or to Harrison/State. Almost all of these variations started when the 145 was dropped in 2009. Before that 146 was almost exclusively Broadway/Berwyn to Planetarium.

[andrethebusman]

If you want to roll my memory, probably it used an Ashland-71 sign without any route number. But there were definitely runs to 71 from downtown.

Update: On further review, the IRM exhibit does include the generic Ashland-71 sign (twice), so I withdraw that criticism. On the other hand, it is still short readings for 55.

There were mistakes made when signs were altered at the sign shops. especially when dealing with older curtains that had had multiple alterations already. The sign shop was given a sheet of paper telling what to remove and what (if anything) to put in its place, but if a sign did not match exactly to begin with, all kinds of strange things happened. Sometimes readings ended up missing, sometimes they ended up duplicated. The really odd one is the North Park/Forest Glen combination. I strongly suspect this was not done by CTA, as a North Park curtain was already the biggest in the city, but by whoever had the sign before IRM got it.

[andrethebusman]

It wouldn't have been 147, but just a red "Outer Drive Express."

Also, the 155 is significant, in that most of the 156s came out of Limits (including nearly, but not all Sheridan LaSalle runs).

156-LaSalle has a strange history in a way. In the 1950's, it was out of two CMC garages, Ravenswood and Rosemont. Rosemont had most of the LaSalle-Sheridan Expresses, but also some local trips. When Rosemont closed, that service went to North Park, while Ravenswood's went to Limits. By the mid-50's almost all local work was from Limits, while almost all AM rush, but only a few PM rush LaSalle-Sheridan Express trips were still North Park. Then in mid-70's a lot of local trips were moved to North Park, after Limits started operating much of 36-Broadway. However, when Limits closed, almost all (later all) local work went to Kedzie, while North Park got all the express work.

[andrethebusman]

I can only say that the one 5750 displayed is of a vintage that was sold off by the CTA in 1976. I had success the first time I tried in 1976, but the second time was a flop. One would assume that they did about the same thing when the New Looks or more recently, the Old Flyers went to junk, but since those signs were used for about 13-19 years instead of the 3 years indicated for the prior set, they probably would have been all dirty and torn up by then.

Hence, it is unlikely that the CTA kept essentially junk, except to decorate its offices. I believe I saw one in some of the news footage of the union leaders going somewhere or the other. If you want to buy something like that now, it is probably eBay or some hobby shop. However, I'm not giving up my 69 Garage side roller.

________________________________________

Speaking of necroposts, I just came across PudgyM's one with the picture of, undoubtedly correct, Kedzie roller. However, that roller essentially was from a 1300 series New Look from 1972-1976. The 120s were pasted in when those routes started, 1975, according to Chicago Transit and Railfan. Similarly, 157 Ohio Union Station because 157 Streeterville, and 149 Michigan State Wacker became 149 Stateliner about that time.* In 1976, all buses would have received the all Helvetica signs. Conversely, before 1972, the route numbers generally were not on the side signs (the only exceptions that I remember being 2A Hyde Park Express and 5A Jeffery Express).

You should also note that Pudgy's has both the 120s, and the 158s which preceded them. The two would not have coexisted on a new sign after 1976.

*A link to a picture of the type of bus at issue between 1972 and 1976 on busdrawings.com was previously posted here. I apologize to whomever posted that link for my being too lazy to acknowledge it properly.

120's and 158's certainly did coexist at Kedzie, for a long time. When 120-121-125 readings were cut in, the work order did not mention removing 158-158A as the 120 signs were added in several months before service actually started, so 158-158A were still needed. Limits was same. 158-158A readings didn't actually disappear until 1976-77 with all-new Helvetica curtains.

[andrethebusman]

KEDZIE - Circa 1973/74.

It was originally a Kedzie sign, and the Lawndale readings were spliced in. Notice the routes that follow 17 Westchester. It's a Lawndale splice. About that time, the 148 Monroe Parking and 149 Michigan - State - Wacker readings were removed (Dec 1974) and the new "Stateliner" and "Streeterville" readings were added (formerly Ohio - Union Station). Later added (1975) were the new 120, 121, and 125 readings.

The KIMBALL - HOMAN readings were screened by CTA and began use in Feb 1970. It was added much later than the original signs were screened, and done in that tiny Dennison "stencil" as were the newer signs for Forest Glen and 69th from 1970. The route combined the old 82 Kimball and the 82A Kedzie - Homan.

.............................................................................................................

I think Lawndale closed down in 1974 or 75 to become a Maintenance Training Center. It was called TABEC.

Lawndale later reopened as an operating facility after the Old Kedzie garage explosion.

Old Kedzie blew up in 1960's. Damage was relatively minor, considering. Flxibles 3150 and 3153, two 5000's, fueling island totaled, windows blown out of wash house. Had nothing to do with Kedzie being replaced many years later.

Lawndale was reopened twice, first to partially replace Kedzie, later to partially replace North Ave.

[andrethebusman]

Some did. Some did not.

CTA started putting route numbers on side signs as early as 1961. Maybe 1963.

You have a good eye! The garages I could tell got numbered side signs early was 52nd Street, North Avenue, Lawndale, and Kedzie. 77th had some rare ones made that oddly were put in the 500s and 600s they ran.

In 1965, with the orders for the 3000 series New Look Flxibles. These buses came with brand new Transign roler curtains installed. 3000 - 3244 were hand crank. 3300s on had electric powered head signs. It became standard for CTA side signs to have route numbers on the side signs for the most part.

First buses with side route numbers as new were 3300-3449 at Beverly, 77th, Archer, Lawndale, and Limits. Around same era,(1964), all Kedzie side signs (except Marmons) were replaced with new ones with numbers. 3500's at 52nd and Archer came with numbers. Many older 52nd buses got new side signs at that time, but not all. North Ave had very few with numbered sides, only a few 5000's. When Limits 3300's got new side signs about 1966, with no 50 NORTH DAMEN that original ones had, some of the old ones landed in 300's. Before 1968, Forest Glen, North Park, 69th had no buses with side sign numbers at all.

[andrethebusman]

Nice try.

Actually, the signs you speak of (Forest Glen) were screened and patched together in very late 1969 in anticipation of the Milwaukee Line extensions to Jefferson Park. CTA made those. Yellow signs were supposed to designate rail feeders, but this became expensive and redundant, and CTA dropped that idea (for side signs) by 1972.

Jerry's North Park sign is DEFINITELY a 1973 Transign from the 74/7500s. So, chronologically, it's newer.

When the Macks moved to FG in mid-1969, they got curtains from the trolley buses they replaced on Lawrence and Central. In early 70 a few got full curtains as old ones tore. Then when the 5900 Flxibles replaced the Macks in spring 1970, the 5900's mostly got full curtains, but a few originally did get the trolley bus signs, as they initially were pretty much just used on Lawrence and Central also.

[andrethebusman]

If I recall correctly, 152 and 76 discontinued downtown service when the Milwaukee Ave. L was

extended to Jefferson Park, which would have been in February 1970. It also was at this time

that all the limited stuff on the 56 and 152 also went away, along with a whole mess of other

changes on the northwest side.

76 downtown service dropped 2/1/70. Addison still continued to have minimal (about a dozen each rush) trips to Congress/State until 1973. AM EB trips were Addison Express and made limited stops east of Cicero, PM WB trips were Addison Limited to Harlem and made all stops on Addison. Alternate Expresses ended at Addison/Lake Shore. After downtown service ended, there were still AM limited-stops service to Lake Shore until 1976, but designated Addison Limited.

Milwaukee Limited and Devon-NW Express also ended 2/1/70, but service to Ozark/NW Hwy via Devon continued as part of 56A-N Milwaukee until recently.

[jajuan]

146 at this point is probably the champion for variations. Normal terminal NB is Broadway/Berwyn, but some (but not all) pullins end et Foster/Broadway. Alternate midday trips end at Marine/Wilson, alternate PM rush trips at Lake Shore/Grace. SB most end at Planetarium, a few early morning trips at Roosevelt/Wabash, many AM rush at Congress/State to either pullin or deadhead back to Marine/Bittersweet (Irving Park) or Marine/Montrose. A large number of PM rush trips deadhead back from Broadway/Berwyn to Randolph/State or to Harrison/State. Almost all of these variations started when the 145 was dropped in 2009. Before that 146 was almost exclusively Broadway/Berwyn to Planetarium.

Yeah it was the pullin trips that go to Broadway/Berwyn that I was thinking about. After letting whatever passengers remaining off at the Berwyn terminus, they circle back around to Foster and head west to the garage.

156-LaSalle has a strange history in a way. In the 1950's, it was out of two CMC garages, Ravenswood and Rosemont. Rosemont had most of the LaSalle-Sheridan Expresses, but also some local trips. When Rosemont closed, that service went to North Park, while Ravenswood's went to Limits. By the mid-50's almost all local work was from Limits, while almost all AM rush, but only a few PM rush LaSalle-Sheridan Express trips were still North Park. Then in mid-70's a lot of local trips were moved to North Park, after Limits started operating much of 36-Broadway. However, when Limits closed, almost all (later all) local work went to Kedzie, while North Park got all the express work.

From what I see of Bill V's info given on CTA's route history, it appears the advent of the Helvetica signs coincides with the express runs of 156 getting their own route numbers as 135 and 136 along with express runs of 151 being renumbered as 146 and 147.

[Busjack]

Yeah it was the pullin trips that go to Broadway/Berwyn that I was thinking about. After letting whatever passengers remaining off at the Berwyn terminus, they circle back around to Foster and head west to the garage.

From what I see of Bill V's info given on CTA's route history, it appears the advent of the Helvetica signs coincides with the express runs of 156 getting their own route numbers as 135 and 136 along with express runs of 151 being renumbered as 146 and 147.

That's when they got those numbers, although different numbers were on 5750's 1973 era sign. There were advertising cards that route numbers were coming.

[jajuan]

That's when they got those numbers, although different numbers were on 5750's 1973 era sign. There were advertising cards that route numbers were coming.

I remembered you and others mentioned that some express routes, specifically on the south side, didn't even have route numbers per se. Did they have route numbers by the time the Helvetica signs were about to be phased in or did those also get their own route numbers at the same time as the north side express services that got their own numbers?

[Busjack]

I remembered you and others mentioned that some express routes, specifically on the south side, didn't even have route numbers per se. Did they have route numbers by the time the Helvetica signs were about to be phased in or did those also get their own route numbers at the same time as the north side express services that got their own numbers?

The express routes were indicated with stuff like 2X or 151X on the system map, but generally not on the destination or side signs, instead there were red boxes that said "OUTER DRIVE EXPRESS" or the like. I might have mentioned that the side sign might have been for 2A HYDE PARK EXPRESS, but not the front one. Other than that, there really wasn't any difference based on what part of the city the bus served.

The ones in this post of 5750's sign for WILSON-MICHIGAN EXPRESS and OUTER DRIVE EXPRESS reflect what was displayed prior to the Helvetica signs.

Similarly, the back side of the map just treated express as a variation of the main route:

The only routes listed as express on the Numerical Listing of CTA Routes were the ones that were only express, i.e. 19 Devon NW Express, 30 South Chicago Express, 131 Washington Express, and 158A Wacker Express. No such designation for 2 Hyde Park, 151 Sheridan, or 153 Wilson Michigan:

BTW, my old map isn't going to take much more of this.

[andrethebusman]

The express routes were indicated with stuff like 2X or 151X on the system map, but generally not on the destination or side signs, instead there were red boxes that said "OUTER DRIVE EXPRESS" or the like. I might have mentioned that the side sign might have been for 2A HYDE PARK EXPRESS, but not the front one. Other than that, there really wasn't any difference based on what part of the city the bus served.

The ones in this post of 5750's sign for WILSON-MICHIGAN EXPRESS and OUTER DRIVE EXPRESS reflect what was displayed prior to the Helvetica signs.

Similarly, the back side of the map just treated express as a variation of the main route:

sheridan.jpg

The only routes listed as express on the Numerical Listing of CTA Routes were the ones that were only express, i.e. 19 Devon NW Express, 30 South Chicago Express, 131 Washington Express, and 158A Wacker Express. No such designation for 2 Hyde Park, 151 Sheridan, or 153 Wilson Michigan:

map.jpg

BTW, my old map isn't going to take much more of this.

Until 1976-77 express routes never carried front sign numbers. Side curtains that had numbers (52nd and Limits for instance) showed "2A-Hyde Park Express", "5A-Jeffery Express", "153A-Wilson-Michigan Express" etc. Maps however showed "2X", "5X" "153X" on the map part, but nothing at all in the route list. The 1976-77 mass renumbering gave all express routes their own separate identities, which by that point were mostly LSD and Stevenson Expwy routes. Archer Express went the other way, as older signs had "62A" or "62X" on side signs, new rolls had "62-Archer Express". 63rd Limited was to become 63rd Express, new signs had that, but was discontinued instead, as was Addison Limited and Jackson Express. South Chicago Express and Washington Express became plain South Chicago and Washington.

[jajuan]

Thanks both of you. It's always interesting learning new perspectives of what services were like in years past during those times before I was born or too young to understand how the system worked especially with how today CTA and Pace are in a state of what a lot of folks would look at as lean operations compared to what routes were around then compared to now.

[Busjack]

... what a lot of folks would look at as lean operations compared to what routes were around then compared to now.

The various service cuts took out a lot of variations. For instance, I was around in 1973 when CTA essentially eliminated the duplication between the CMC and CSL routes (for instance, 136 Douglas cut because it essentially duplicated 58 Ogden-Randolph, which itself was later cut as essentially covering 37 Taylor segment, which is now 157). The Orange Line very slowly resulted in the cutting of southwest side Downtown variations, 42 (Halsted Downtown), 44 (Wallace Racine cut back to Halsted) and 45 (Ashland Downtown) as well as the more obvious Archer and Stevenson Expresses. 38 Indiana had all sorts of variations before it was recently cut back to the stub we have today (to 35th).

If you go back to 5750's sign, a red slash indicated a short turn. I don't know what percentage of those were used in actual service, but a good number were. That red slash (which apparently was inherited from Philadelphia) also died with the 1976 Helvetica signs.

But if you want to get really before my time, I find it really incredible that (as reflected in the CSL books) there were like 4 streetcar lines on Cottage Grove, and that the Downtown lines I mentioned earlier were the original or predominant lines, either because the original companies were split essentially at the South Branch or the bridges came later than what we might have thought. It looks like surface ridership is now about 20% of what it was when CTA took over (comparisons in Krambles's book between 1947 and 1970, and then discounting current numbers because they are unlinked trips instead of originating fares)..

[artthouwill]

Because "55 Museum" was always a terminal on 55, so somehow you got a sign that is missing readings. Maybe when CTA spliced in readings for the extension resulting from the Dan Ryan restructuring they threw out too much of the old sign on that roll.

The 1969 Dan Ryan Edition map confirms that the east terminal was Museum:

Garfield 1969.jpg

I also said that even after the Dan Ryan changes, there was still a short terminal at 55-Morgan (technically Garfield-Morgan, but that's what the sign said). The continued existence of the short terminal is confirmed by this 1980 map:

garfield 1980.jpg

I thought there was a similar problem with 45, but maybe Andre explained that. But I lived 10 stories above 55th Street at the time at issue, so I sure know what signs the 55 bus had.

I rember 8 Halsted=55th front signs. Were those interlined with the 55th/Morgan shorts?

[Busjack]

I rember 8 Halsted=55th front signs. Were those interlined with the 55th/Morgan shorts?

I saw a couple of those, but they were not buses from 69th barn. I have a feeling that they might just have been short Limits runs.

The 55-Morgan ones seemed a leftover from when 55 55 STREET was just between Museum and Morgan, and maybe filled in during times when the old 55 ran but the old 6 Garfield didn't. However, when 55 was extended to Cicero, the usual daytime short turn was at St. Louis, where it still is.

[andrethebusman]

I rember 8 Halsted=55th front signs. Were those interlined with the 55th/Morgan shorts?

No - there were once NB 8 short turns from 77th on Saturday to Garfield. Turned right on Garfield, "U" at Union, back to Halsted.