A Sign Of The Times ???

[trainman8119]

As I was headed downtown one day this week, I went by the Jeff Park terminal. It was practically empty. It made me think a little bit and remembered the times when the terminal was always packed with buses, both in service and parked as extras, both CTA and Nortran (Pace). It shows how much service has dropped over the years and along with it, ridership.

Along with that, I remember the times of going to a bus stop and waiting no longer than 5-10 minutes for a bus, looking in the subway during rush hour and always seeing lights. Service was good, riders were there.

Now, your waits are long, and you can't even be sure that a bus route has service (ie. Grand ave after about 7pm). So much is made about true owl service, but 7pm....please, give me at least 60-90 minute service so that a person is not stranded until at least 10pm.

Forget the fare increases scaring riders away...but service levels really do stink !!!!!!

[Buslover88]

I think Service has really gone down the drain because of the current CTA President. I was at Diversey/Killbourn today. I waited 40 Minutes for a Bus and I complaned when I got on. Then I waited for a Pulaski bus Northbound when I got the Diversey bus. I had to wait almost an Hour for that Bus. It turns out that there was Constuction happing down at Wrightwood. I going to complan to CTA about their stinky Service.

[Busjack]

I was at Diversey/Killbourn today. I waited 40 Minutes for a Bus and I complaned when I got on. Then I waited for a Pulaski bus Northbound when I got the Diversey bus. I had to wait almost an [???] for that Bus. I going to complan to CTA about their stinky Service.

I remember that a couple of months ago, you said:

While i was Driving a #76 Diversey bus today, there was so many people to the point were I had to tell people to get off, and the people were looking at me like they were gonna beat me up and tell CTA.

At a minimum, you now see it from the passenger's point of view. And if you worked at Chicago Garage, where both routes are based, you should know to whom you should complain there, instead of complaining here.

[Busjack]

It shows how much service has dropped over the years and along with it, ridership.

Along with that, I remember the times of going to a bus stop and waiting no longer than 5-10 minutes for a bus, looking in the subway during rush hour and always seeing lights. Service was good, riders were there.

I agree with that point, comparing the two times I was in Chicago, 1968-1977 and 1995 to present. In 1976 there were over 2400 buses, in 1995, about 1900. You don't lose 20% of your fleet (and 3 garages--52, Lawndale, and Limits) without huge losses in either coverage or frequency. As you remember, baseline schedules then were 3-10 minutes; now CTA maps don't note anything less than 20. There were no printed schedules for the passengers in those days and no need for them. Mentioning Jefferson Park, if you drive by Forest Glen at noon, the lot is at least half full, but by 2 p.m., it is empty, indicating that many of the runs are rush hour only. Rush hour is also the only time you see decent frequency downtown. Also the number of routes is much less than in 1972. Obviously, the 62, 99, 162 and 164 expresses, which filled State Street , were eventually replaced by the Orange Line, and various 140s replaced the 153, but you don't have such routes as 1 Drexel-Hyde Park, 5-Jeffrey Local, 10-Lincoln-Larrabee, 11-Lincoln-Wabash, 15-Canal-Wacker, 16-Lake, (dare we say 41), 42-Halsted Downtown, 44-Wallace-Racine, 45-Ashland Downtown, 58-Ogden-Randolph (parts of which may be coming back as the 127), and 61-Archer-Franklin going downtown any more, either. Note that I am not saying that any of these are necessary, just there is a lot less to see.

[MetroShadow]

based on that concept, there has been a reduction of routes (who could remember seeing a flock of 44's from the Mart in the middle of rush hour, or the 61, 62X, 99, 99M, 162, 164 expresses marching down State). That should mean that there should be better coverage of routes distributed through many of the routes outside of downtown. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be the case.

If you compare the Archer Expresses of the 90's, and the Lake Shore Drive Expresses, you would think that the number of buses, or routes for that matter, has changed, or something. I remember before my senior year at Payton in 2003, I noticed that I could catch a 135, or even better, a 136 everytime, because they would show up (although they would bunch up 3-in-a-row, or show up every 7-10 minutes by themselves). When the realignment occured after my senior year, then I noticed a drastic change (and by then my options were to take the RedLine or take the 210). Now the buses show up (supposedly through the schedule they give out but rarely follow it), and the amount of buses aren't used as much.

I remember a few years back that there was always service on some of the routes until late, and some ended early. I recalled seeing the 145 end no later than 7:30, but a few years back, they increased service to about 10pm (northbound only). Not to mention, that there was ALWAYS service somewhere late at night. Now we look at the situation now, and have to depend on two subway lines, and not alot of buses available after midnight.

Kinda makes me miss the "good ol' days".

[Busjack]

That should mean that there should be better coverage of routes distributed through many of the routes outside of downtown. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be the case.

I don't know if one of CTA's goals in the restructurings is cutting "platform time," but the Pace budget indicated that their restructurings were supposed to cut 4-7%. At the time of the North Shore Initiative, it appeared that Pace was more interested in cutting 210, 212, and 220 (in areas that were outside the announced initiative area) than in adding service. However, when there were too many complaints in Northbrook and Glenview, they redid the proposals for 422 and 423 to save some of the service (still cutting 422 service frequency west of Old Orchard compared to the old 212 route), and cutting back 210 to Berwyn CTA (you couldn't ride it to Payton anymore), but killing the proposed 211 Evanston to Kimball via NEIU, apparently because there were not enough service hours left to cover it.

With Kruesi saying that CTA has saved so many millions over the past 15 years, most of that had to come out of service hours. Some routes do cover for others (such as 146 to Museum Campus covering for some of the old 149), and the 136 question you raise has to do with separating local and express riders. There may be a few improvements, such as the X49, and a few heavy routes, such as 79, but overall the coverage is down.

P.S. This reminds me of a couple more I could have added to my last list: 70 Division to NW Station, 148 Monroe Parking Lot, 149 Stateliner, and 152 Addison Downtown.

[trainman8119]

P.S. This reminds me of a couple more I could have added to my last list: 70 Division to NW Station, 148 Monroe Parking Lot, 149 Stateliner, and 152 Addison Downtown.

Ya know, in the old days of Addison going via Cannon drive and Lake Shore Downtown, that Diversey used to go to Adams-Wabash...back when Keeler was open (Keeler was pretty much a Diversey, Addison garage in its later days). Also, what is now pretty much the 145-146 routes were the 153 Wilson-Michigan and 156 Wilson-La Salle (which is now just La Salle....or La Salle-Belmont, if you read the destination sign...ha ha ha). I would go to the zoo with my parents and hope they would park at the sea lion pool so I could sit in the top row of the bleachers and watch the new looks go by on those routes (Flxible-8500 and GMC Fishbowls-400 series)...I would get my bus fix instead of watching the sea lions get their fish !!!!

Now those were the "good ol' days".

[MetroShadow]

Well of course (re: the 210) they redid the entire whole North Shore last year when I was in DeKalb freshman year, so the 210 didn't affect me either way; and judging from how they managed to [almost] screw up the West DuPage/Kane county, it calls to question whether restructuring routes will do more harm than good.

If we look at the Orange Line, that happened to be a successful project, since you took out alot of buses on the streets, took buses off the Stevenson (or Archer) and put them into feeder routes (who could remember the ever-so-famous 62A or 62N), and made commute times to and from the southwest side ALOT quicker. Service apparently increased over the years, and service (albeit not Owl service yet) has been increasing to meet the demand.

On the other hand you have projects that are met with criticism, or confusion. I'm not sure if the North Shore project is a success (its barely a year old), although the two changes I saw from my vacations were that: (a) changes to the 209 forced people to go to Rosemont for the 606, or made it easier for passengers on the 208 directly to and From Evanston; and ( not many people ride the 210 like they used to.

Also, from what I've seen in the papers, the SW DuPage/Kane restructuring first started off shaky, but what is its status now?

But it looks like the LSD expresses (on the north side at least) may be a success (in theory or practice). Taking the existing routes (135,136,145,46,47), and adding more routes (134,43,44,48) was a good thing/bad thing situation. The good news is that you shifted alot of people from the 145 and 146 to the 144 and 148 routes respectively, the 134 and 143 routes took pressure off the 135, 145, and 146 routes off south of belmont, as well perhaps the 151 and 156 routes at fullerton (156 having more buses to make up the difference). The bad news, if there would be, is that frequency of the routes are cut on the 'older routes', and no express service on LaSalle meant alot of people switched to the 156 where its needed (for the record, when they temporary extended its rush hour trips to Irving Park, I only was able to take advantage of that opportunity once). But overall, I see the restructuring successful overall, and I won't even doubt the same on the south side.

Its a sign of changing times, whether good or bad, and to question whether or not it'll work, we'll have to wait it out in due time.

[Busjack]

If we look at the Orange Line, that happened to be a successful project, since you took out alot of buses on the streets, took buses off the Stevenson (or Archer) and put them into feeder routes (who could remember the ever-so-famous 62A or 62N)...

A qeustion for those on the southwest side: How could 164 support articulated buses, when the current CTA Ridership Report states that 55N (which presumably also includes 55A) is one of the least productive routes? Are that many people driving to the Park and Ride?

Also, the new Historical Calendar is available. There is a picture of the CMC Wilcox garage, letting me add routes 127 Jackson Independence, 128 Merchandise Mart, 131 Washington Express (may be partially reinstated by X20) and 136 Douglas (pictured), all of which lasted into 1972. The "Shuttle Service" sign on one bus reminds me of the red "Shuttle Service" signs on top of 8400 series Flxible buses that later ran on those routes. New Look buses on 149 Stateliner(1300s) had similar green signs that said "149 Stateliner 35 cents" (if that was the fare at the time).

[RIPTA42]

I agree with that point, comparing the two times I was in Chicago, 1968-1977 and 1995 to present. In 1976 there were over 2400 buses, in 1995, about 1900. You don't lose 20% of your fleet (and 3 garages--52, Lawndale, and Limits) without huge losses in either coverage or frequency.

I don't disagree with your assessment - I ride the Foster bus, and I think 13 minute headways at rush hour is obscene - but it's important to note that between 1977 and 1995, the Blue Line extention and Orange Line opened, and the CTA began purchasing articulated buses, both of which would contribute to reducing the total fleet size.

[RIPTA42]

...but killing the proposed 211 Evanston to Kimball via NEIU, apparently because there were not enough service hours left to cover it.

Doesn't the extenstion of the 93 from Howard & Kedzie to Davis cover this anyway?

[Busjack]

211 was supposed to be the Crawford/Main bus, and go directly through NEIU instead of 93 being a mile away on California. However, I haven't heard any community protest about not having it, while there was considerable protest to cutting 210 and 212.

[RIPTA42]

The 93 stops at Kimball & Foster; not direct service, but only three blocks to the main building at St. Louis & Balmoral. With all the condominiums coming up in Sauganash, I wonder if this might be revisited in a few years to give them a direct Brown Line connection.

[Busjack]

Sauganash doesn't have any standing with Pace. The rationales for 211 were to provide Lincolnwood service (somewhat in lieu of 210) and because Evanston residents told the consultants that they wanted service to NEIU (but you said that 93 was an alternative).

[RIPTA42]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought planning was done at a regional level (RTA, CATS/NIPC), not within each service board. Population growth in Sauganash could be a reason for a bus, be it Pace or CTA, via Crawford-Pulaski-NEIU-Kimball. Then again, the Cicero and Pulaski buses' connection to the Blue Line is probably sufficient for Sauganash.

[Busjack]

All of the restructuring studies were done by CTA (North/South Lake Shore Drive, Rogers Park/Evanston, West Side) and Pace (159th, Halsted, River, North Shore, Fox Valley/SW Du Page). The agencies you mention may have something to do with whether something gets funding, but have done nothing about implementation. I have consistently complained (including to my state representative and RTA) that RTA has done nothing to prevent competition between CTA and Pace in Evanston and Skokie, to the detriment of riders living elsewhere in the North Shore area. Mike Payne has been saying for years that CATS (now apparently merged into NIPC) had given his Gray Line proposal (for making the Metra Electric within the city a CTA service) its highest rating, but that has gotten his proposal nowhere.

[trainman8119]

Mike Payne has been saying for years that CATS (now apparently merged into NIPC) had given his Gray Line proposal (for making the Metra Electric within the city a CTA service) its highest rating, but that has gotten his proposal nowhere.  

Metra Electric under the control of the CTA....YIKES !!!! That is a scary thought....it would die in 5 years under their management !!!! I contend that CTA rail should fall under Metra....at least any new service. As goofed up as the Metra people are, at I am sure at least they would find a way to keep things status quo if not increased...I don't think you would have as many service cuts if the L was under different management.

[Busjack]

Metra Electric under the control of the CTA....YIKES !!!! That is a scary thought....it would die in 5 years under their management !!!!

I'll let his web site speak for itself, but he called for a purchase of service contract. My point was that CATS couldn't get it implemented, when CTA and Metra both had no interest in it.

[Busjack]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought planning was done at a regional level (RTA, CATS/NIPC), not within each service board.

See also this post with regard to Pace not completely cancelling a route, even though it will partially compete with Metra. Apparently the federally-mandated public hearing requirement predominates (at least in this instance) as far as a service board is concerned.

[trainman8119]

As far as I know, each board controls their own routes, and the planning and maintenance of the routes. As for the 835, Metra paid Pace a hunk on money to operate the route...as they did with the North Central (formerly 960 and 961 routes) when that line opened. Since the Southwest  additional service will no longer need supplemental bus service, Metra will no longer pay Pace to run the route.

If the board accepts the proposal, I am sure that the route would run on a test basis. If the train service is a true success, there would eventually not be a need to run the bus and it will eventually die. You can be sure that the train would be much more efficient that the buses operating on Chicago expressways.

[trainman8119]

Don't look at competion between service boards as a consideration when planning/operating routes. When the CTA began to plan extension to O'Hare in the 60's and 70's, the old Chicago and Northwestern took a hard stand against the extension because, they claimed, it would take riders away from their service on the Northwest line. When the CTA first scaled back the extension to Jefferson Park, the CNW backed off opposition, as long as the line would not go to O'Hare. By the time the CTA started expansion towards O'Hare, the CNW days were limited anyway, and Metra and the Union Pacific were not going to make any more challenges to the expansion.

Also, Pace operates many of their feeder routes in conjunction with Metra schedules...such as Du Page feeder routes and Shuttle Bugs on the North Shore. Many of these routes are paid for in part by Metra, CATS, local businesses, etc. and it has been successful for them. To me this shows, that for Pace to survive, they need all of the local service boards (Metra and CTA) to thrive, otherwise, they will have nothing.

[Busjack]

I'm not complaining about Pace and Metra cooperating (as in the feeder examples), but here the opposite is occurring (Pace is replacing a Metra subsidized bus route with a route competing with Metra). Similarly, CTA 205 was a reason for cancelling Pace 212 between Old Orchard and Evanston, resulting in a more circuitous route for those west of Old Orchard (or, according to the Trip Planner, a new transfer at Old Orchard). I question whether that form of competition (or better stated, lack of coordination) is a good use of limited resources or taxpayer money.

[trainman8119]

I question whether that form of competition (or better stated, lack of coordination) is a good use of limited resources or taxpayer money.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. As far as I am concerned, Pace should operate in the suburbs and the CTA in the city, with the exception on the L lines already in service. I really don't understand why the CTA continues to operate the Evanston routes. I know they started doing it when Evanston Bus Lines went belly up in order to give those in Evanston some buses. However, since Pace has taken up suburban service since the RTA inception, they should be operating all suburban routes, including Evanston.

If Pace wants to continue to operate the 835, that is fine too. I don't see it as a competition, but a compliment. However, there would be no need to operate it as an express downtown any more, because the train will always be more efficient. It would make much more sense to operate the route as some sort of feeder to/from the stations they are planning on serving rather than trying to operate the express.

[Busjack]

If Pace wants to continue to operate the 835, that is fine too. I don't see it as a competition, but a compliment. However, there would be no need to operate it as an express downtown any more, because the train will always be more efficient. It would make much more sense to operate the route as some sort of feeder to/from the stations they are planning on serving rather than trying to operate the express.

Hewever, since the proposed schedule indicates that the bus will only stop at the Metra stations (and a few courtesy stops) I have the feeling that the only real purpose is to serve those that don't want to walk from Union Station to Michigan Avenue or get a Link-Up pass and use CTA.

[Busjack]

Getting back (somewhat) to the topic, the graph in today's Sun Times article "One L of a good year for CTA" indicates that from 1992 to 1997, ridership went down by about 70 million from the 1992 level of 491 million. 1997 was, of course, when the last cuts were implemented. [This also indicates that the comment earlier in this thread that Kruesi was responsible might be a bit off base, although I am not one of his defenders.] It got back to about 460 million in 2002, when the recession and current funding crisis started, and now has only gotten back to that level. However, it is still 30 million less than in 1992.