CTA Bus Stop sign information

[Rustymuscle]

Hello,

I recently picked up this CTA bus stop sign on Ebay. It was the type that was mounted on a pole secured to the sidewalk. I was wondering...

...if someone might have a photo of one in use? And an approximate date of usage?

...if someone might have information on the actual, original color scheme? In cleaning the sign up a bit before restoring, I see what appears to be original red paint on the background, green paint on the background over the red, and green paint residue over the CTA circular logo. I have a hunch the circular CTA logo may have been in original service in the unpainted natural silver color.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

RM

[Busjack]

I can't help, because it appears you got a real oldie. Given, for instance, that it does not have the "Metropolitan Transit" banner, probably very early 1950s.

Chicago-l.org has some pictures of CTA logos from L cars, which might help. If this link does not work, right click, "copy link location," and paste it into your browser's url bar.

Any bus stop sign with which I am familiar are the ones that are the flat piece of metal attached to a light pole at the side. There were various color schemes for those, but the basic concept remains today.

[Rustymuscle]

Thanks for the information. I think I solved the issue in an amazing way. I noted the CTA logo appeared to be an applique. And, I found a photo of the same sign, but for Chicago Surface Lines Bus Stop. So, I carefully drilled the rivets holding the applique and uncovered the orignal CSL logo. It is the same sign as this one at the Illinois Railway Museum. This confirms the red background. However, it appears the CSL logo was painted silver and not white.

http://www.flickr.co...N03/5604948828/

3648470521_ce31af63bd_b[1] by Rustymuscle, on Flickr

[Busjack]

It seems like you stumbled into the world of the really obscure in that Lind's book on CSL doesn't mention them, and says that streetcar stops were indicated either by a white stripe painted on the pole or a metal sign hanging from the overhead wires.

Also, CSL bus stops would be on feeders in outlying parts of the city (unless it referred to a trolley bus, and, still, even then).

Therefore, the underlying sign would be before Sept. 1947, and the CTA overlay shortly after that. Obviously, it would have been the first generation CTA logo indicated on Chicago-L.org.

I hope that taking out the rivets doesn't hurt its value on Antiques Roadshow .

[Rustymuscle]

Funny you mention that as it occurred to me that by uncovering one treasure I was destroying another!

Thanks for the information. My assumption was these would have been used in the loop area. I've scoured hundreds of loop photos and found nothing. I'll now look around old photos from outlying areas.

[Busjack]

Definitely not the loop area, as all CSL downtown was pretty much streetcar, and buses were CMC

Based on Lind's early CTA track maps, the only possible downtown bus routes would have been 15 Canal-Wacker, 37 Taylor-Sedgwick-Sheffield, and 62A Archer Express

You will have better luck in essentially now Forest Glen territory, far west extensions to north side cross town routes, and the far south side.

[Wolfman]

Busjack is correct.

Where the Surface Lines used these signs were out in the far outlying areas where there were no line poles. So think "motor bus".

Think the Forest Glen (Avondale) area.

Think Skokie.

Think the Kedzie/Homan line.

Think West 79th Street.

Think the Beverly/Mount Greenwood area.

The old original signs were a cast iron crown. By the very early 1950s when CTA began giving consideration to buses over street railway, systematically, they began making and posting descriptive signage similar to what you see today. Originally, the "P.I. signs" (as CTA officially calls them - P.I. for "public information") were "sandwich mounted" on a pole, requiring TWO signs. Then, about in the late 1950s, CTA adopted a technique called a "flag mount" that only used one sign. That's what you see today.

Best of luck with your eBay find!

It is indeed very rare.

[Rustymuscle]

Thanks for all the information! I have looked at hundreds of photographs and finally found one on trolleybuses.net. As you can see in the photo this sign is on trolley bus route 85, somewhere on Central Avenue.

Interestingly, this sign doesn't have a white border and the sign I procured had paint remnants of white paint on the words and border. The CSL logo had remnants of silver paint.

Couple questions. First, CSL buses were mostly electric trolleys? Or, over time did they become more motor buses? Also, when CSL started bus service around 1930 were the buses mostly for connections to their street cars, which then served the loop? Again, thanks for the great information!

85trolley by Rustymuscle, on Flickr

[sht6131]

Busjack is correct.

Where the Surface Lines used these signs were out in the far outlying areas where there were no line poles. So think "motor bus".

Think the Forest Glen (Avondale) area.

Think Skokie.

Think the Kedzie/Homan line.

Think West 79th Street.

Think the Beverly/Mount Greenwood area.

The old original signs were a cast iron crown. By the very early 1950s when CTA began giving consideration to buses over street railway, systematically, they began making and posting descriptive signage similar to what you see today. Originally, the "P.I. signs" (as CTA officially calls them - P.I. for "public information") were "sandwich mounted" on a pole, requiring TWO signs. Then, about in the late 1950s, CTA adopted a technique called a "flag mount" that only used one sign. That's what you see today.

Best of luck with your eBay find!

It is indeed very rare.

Looks like the P I sign that I described the routes on before they went to maps

[Busjack]

Where the Surface Lines used these signs were out in the far outlying areas where there were no line poles. So think "motor bus".

Think the Forest Glen (Avondale) area.

Think Skokie.

Think the Kedzie/Homan line.

Think West 79th Street.

Think the Beverly/Mount Greenwood area.

Of the above list, I would not think Skokie, because the 97 bus was a replacement for the Niles Center Rapid Transit route and never CSL. So, unless CTA was repurposing old signs in new locations, not likely.

Since I mentioned far south side, I would add 103/106 (always bus), 111th, 115th (converted 1945) and Hegewisch (converted 1946).

Couple questions. First, CSL buses were mostly electric trolleys? Or, over time did they become more motor buses? Also, when CSL started bus service around 1930 were the buses mostly for connections to their street cars, which then served the loop? Again, thanks for the great information!

You have to go back to the 30s for that. Streetcars were not only downtown, but on all major grid streets,* except those in the boulevard system, which were served by Chicago Motor Coach buses.

Getting into the depression, trolley buses were apparently used because CSL no longer wanted to dig up the streets for tracks. They were mostly used for trunk lines in newly developed areas, such as Central and Narragansett. Lind's book has CSL and CMC fighting over the territories, including Diversey west of Western. A few were extensions, such as North Elston, and a short lived North Kimball one.

The motor buses were pretty much limited to extensions, such as 42B (now 8A) South Halsted, Irving Park west of Neenah, Belmont west of Central, Archer west of Cicero, etc. Then, as Wofman indicated, they penetrated into newly developed areas on the Northwest Side, and routes like Foster and Peterson. Some were extensions of trolley bus lines, such as 85A North Central. Also, the motor buses were usually no longer than 35 feet, and many in Lind's book look like delivery vans.

After World War II, bus substitution started on the far south side, because they didn't want to run street cars that had to be flagged across railroad crossings, and on routes such as Archer. CTA was basically responsible for the large trolley bus network on the north side, as well as scattered trolley buses replacing streetcars on Roosevelt (lasted until 1973) 47th and 51-55 (gone long before).

Of course, all of this is based on Lind's book.

__________

See this Unknown Chicago quiz, which I aced.

[Wolfman]

Couple questions. First, CSL buses were mostly electric trolleys? Or, over time did they become more motor buses? Also, when CSL started bus service around 1930 were the buses mostly for connections to their street cars, which then served the loop? Again, thanks for the great information!

The first motorbuses CSL ran in the 1930s were on

. Diversey Extension (Grand/Leavitt) from Harding to Laramie. (August 11, 1927)

. Far West Irving Park Road Extension (Ardmore/Lawrence) from Narragansett to Pacific. (date unknown)

. 103d Street Shuttle Bus (77th) from Vincennes to Western. (May 04, 1930)

There were seven trolleybus lines at that time as well;

. Kimball (June 21, 1931)

. Elston Extension (July 01, 1930)

. Montrose Extension (Jan 25, 1931)

. Belmont Extension (April 17, 1930)

. Diversey (April 17, 1930)

. Narragansett (June 29, 1930)

. Central (June 08, 1930)

(All out of North Avenue.)

As best as I can tell, the first motorbuses were Twin Coach.

The trolleybuses were built by Twin Coach, Brill, and St. Louis Car.

[busfan2847]

The first motorbuses CSL ran in the 1930s were on

. Diversey Extension (Grand/Leavitt) from Harding to Laramie. (August 11, 1927)

. Far West Irving Park Road Extension (Ardmore/Lawrence) from Narragansett to Pacific. (date unknown)

. 103d Street Shuttle Bus (77th) from Vincennes to Western. (May 04, 1930)

There were seven trolleybus lines at that time as well;

. Kimball (June 21, 1931)

. Elston Extension (July 01, 1930)

. Montrose Extension (Jan 25, 1931)

. Belmont Extension (April 17, 1930)

. Diversey (April 17, 1930)

. Narragansett (June 29, 1930)

. Central (June 08, 1930)

(All out of North Avenue.)

As best as I can tell, the first motorbuses were Twin Coach.

The trolleybuses were built by Twin Coach, Brill, and St. Louis Car.

Details i have fot the 80A are:- The 80A West Irving Park Rd was created 7/6/30 between Neenah and Harlem, replacing part of Chicago Motor Coach route 33 Narragansett-Austin, which had been discontinued 3/8/30. This CMC route had been extended on Irving Park From 10/3/28. Extended to cemetery gates 7/26/31, to Pacific 7/10/32 and to Cumberland 2/4/47. From 5/30/54 until 2/1/70, route 80A routed through with 86 North-Narragansett bus route. Extension bus became route 80A again until renumbered 80W 2/27/83. Extended from Cumberland to a loop in Schiller Park 4/7/75 and north to Rosemont/ River Rd station 2/27/83. Late eve service w 9/13/81 along with non-RH service west of Cumberland. Su am w 1/3/82. On 1/24/88 was combined with main route with service west of Cumberland passing to Pace (326).

Bus Garage: North Ave. (7/6/30-12/4/55), Forest Glen (12/4/55-1/24/88)

Details I have for CSL buses and trolleybuses through 1931 are:-

Buses

1-5 Twin Coach 40 1927 B40D

- CR1-5 r/n 1101-5 ’44; 1101-5 w49

6, 7 Twin Coach 40 1930 B40D

- CR 6/7 r/n 1106/7 ’44; 1106/7 w49; 1107 > BW1 ‘49

301-303 Twin Coach 40 1928 B40D

- CCR 301-3 r/n 1108-1110 ’44; 1108-10 w49

Trolleybuses

51-79 Twin Coach 40-TT 1930 B40D Trolleybus

- 52-5, 67, 74 w<52; 51/6-66/8-73/5-9 r/n 9051/6-66/8-73/5-9 ‘52; 9051/6-66/8-73/5-9 w<54

80-85 Brill-American 40-DMT 1930 B40D Trolleybus

- 80-85 w<51; 85 > BL1305 ‘52

86-91 St Louis 1930 B40D Trolleybus

- 86-91 w<51

92-98 Twin Coach 40-TT 1930 B40D Trolleybus

- 92 w<52; 93-8 r/n 9093-8 ‘52; 9093-8 w<54

99-105 Brill-American 40-DMT 1930 B40D Trolleybus

- 99-102 w<52; 103-105 r/n 9103-5 ’52; 9103-5 w<54; 102 > BL1304 ‘52

106, 107 ACF 513-1-H-11 1930 B40D Trolleybus

- 106/7 r/n 9106/7 ’52; 9106/7 w<54

108-114 Twin Coach 40-TT 1930 B40D Trolleybus

- 108-14 r/n 9108-14 ‘52; 9108-94 w<54

115-122 Brill-American 40-DMT 1930 B40D Trolleybus

- 115-122 r/n 9115-22 ’52; 9115-22 w<54; 9115 > BL1307 ‘54

123, 124 Cincinnatti 1930 B40D Trolleybus

- 123/4 r/n 9123/4 ’52; 9123/4 w<54

125-129 Twin Coach 40-TT 1931 B40D Trolleybus

- 128 w<52; 125-7/9 r/n 9125-7/9 ‘52; 9125-7/9 w<54

130-134 Brill-American 40-DMT 1931 B40D Trolleybus

- 130-4 r/n 9130-4 ’52; 9130-4 w<54

135-139 St Louis 1931 B40D Trolleybus

- 136 w<51; 135/7-9 r/n 9135/7-9 ’52; 9135/7-9 w<53

140-149 Twin Coach 40-TT 1931 B40D Trolleybus

- 140-9 r/n 9140-9 ‘52; 9140-9 w<54

150-160 Brill 40-DMT 1931 B40D Trolleybus

- 157/9 w<52; 150-6/8/60 r/n 9150-6/8/60 ’52; 9150-6/8/60 w<54

161-164 Cincinnatti 1931 B40D Trolleybus

- 161-4 r/n 9161-4 ’52; 9161-4 w<54

[Busjack]

As best as I can tell, the first motorbuses were Twin Coach.

As for buses 1 and 301, yes. Basically, though, the bus roster in Lind's book indicates that CSL bought from nearly everyone, including truck and rail car builders entering the bus business--White, Yellow (which became part of GM), ACF-Brill, Ford, REO, and Mack.

Which takes me back to when my father (who for a time lived in Lawndale) said "does only GM make buses?" After reading the book, I asked him if that was only because the Boulevard System (CMC) was running buses in the area, and he said yes. Apparently Hertz had interests in CMC and Yellow Coach that kept the connection, although the interests were not simultaneous, at least after GM took over Yellow.

[Rustymuscle]

The type of CTA sign you show in this post is one I would like to find.Where did you find that one?

Are you talking about the cast iron sign? I found on Ebay. It had aluminum CTA appliques on each side to cover the CSL embossing. I drilled the rivets and removed the appliques. The refinished CSL sign I show is located at the Illinois Railway Museum in Union.

If you are talking about the later type of sign, those are on Ebay occasionally, too.

I also just picked up the Lind book on Ebay; page 323 shows the CSL sign installed at 71st and Vincennes.

[Busjack]

I also just picked up the Lind book on Ebay; page 323 shows the CSL sign installed at 71st and Vincennes.

Looks like you got the right page, wrong caption.

As best as I can tell, it is in front of Bus 409 at 71st and Exchange, under the "Free Gas, Light, and Carpeting" billboard.

Of course, I would have never seen it unless you made me look. :lol:

[MRCTA]

Busjack is correct.

Where the Surface Lines used these signs were out in the far outlying areas where there were no line poles. So think "motor bus".

Think the Forest Glen (Avondale) area.

Think Skokie.

Think the Kedzie/Homan line.

Think West 79th Street.

Think the Beverly/Mount Greenwood area.

The old original signs were a cast iron crown. By the very early 1950s when CTA began giving consideration to buses over street railway, systematically, they began making and posting descriptive signage similar to what you see today. Originally, the "P.I. signs" (as CTA officially calls them - P.I. for "public information") were "sandwich mounted" on a pole, requiring TWO signs. Then, about in the late 1950s, CTA adopted a technique called a "flag mount" that only used one sign. That's what you see today.

Best of luck with your eBay find!

It is indeed very rare.

Man, that really is a hard-to-find rare CTA Bus Stop Sign! Ebay might still sell them!

[Busjack]

Man, that really is a hard-to-find rare CTA Bus Stop Sign! Ebay might still sell them!

You are looking for stuff that probably has been off the street for about 60 years. Also, as Rustymuscle pointed out, you also have to search for "CSL."

Given that, it probably is estate sale material, if at all.

[MRCTA]

Busjack is correct.

Where the Surface Lines used these signs were out in the far outlying areas where there were no line poles. So think "motor bus".

Think the Forest Glen (Avondale) area.

Think Skokie.

Think the Kedzie/Homan line.

Think West 79th Street.

Think the Beverly/Mount Greenwood area.

The old original signs were a cast iron crown. By the very early 1950s when CTA began giving consideration to buses over street railway, systematically, they began making and posting descriptive signage similar to what you see today. Originally, the "P.I. signs" (as CTA officially calls them - P.I. for "public information") were "sandwich mounted" on a pole, requiring TWO signs. Then, about in the late 1950s, CTA adopted a technique called a "flag mount" that only used one sign. That's what you see today.

Best of luck with your eBay find!

It is indeed very rare.

Did you get this CTA Bus Stop sign off EBay? Wonder if they've got more?

[Guest ctafan630]

While waiting for the bus this morning at Jackson and Riverside, above the regular bus stop signs there was a small rectangle sign with the bus emblem and a "A" inside a red circle. Has anyone seen this before and what does it mean?

[MetroShadow]

http://rtachicago.com/images/stories/final_RTA_imgs/brochure_connections.pdf (Since I can't utilize the rich text function)

[Busjack]

http://rtachicago.com/images/stories/final_RTA_imgs/brochure_connections.pdf (Since I can't utilize the rich text function)

In short, another incomprehensible, money waster from the ineffective folks at the RTA. And, apparently based on the inaccurate RTA Trip Planner.

P.S. You ought to ask Kevin why you aren't getting the RTF editor.

[Guest ctafan630]

In short, another incomprehensible, money waster from the ineffective folks at the RTA. And, apparently based on the inaccurate RTA Trip Planner.

P.S. You ought to ask Kevin why you aren't getting the RTF editor.

Unbelievable. I agree that these new signs are useless. It points people to a bus stop but the average person still can't figure out where they need to go or which bus to get on once they are at the stop.

[MetroShadow]

Jack, I think I found the problem. Her name is Google Chrome (or, Skynet).

As for the topic at hand, knowing our system, this should've been done years ago (perhaps prior to the Wacker Drive reconstruction). I'm all for improving the customer experience (read: the tourists don't know the system like we do), as long as we can understand where to catch the trains (say, a first-time metra rider needing to find the Milwaukee West line when she exits the 151 at Union*). I don't deem it a complete waste, but I see what you guys are saying.

*This actually did happen to a friend of mine where she spent 15 minutes on the phone with me attempting to find her way through the Great Hall. I'm impressed with how well-versed I am in navigating through Union.

[Busjack]

....

As for the topic at hand, knowing our system, this should've been done years ago (perhaps prior to the Wacker Drive reconstruction). I'm all for improving the customer experience (read: the tourists don't know the system like we do), as long as we can understand where to catch the trains (say, a first-time metra rider needing to find the Milwaukee West line when she exits the 151 at Union*). I don't deem it a complete waste, but I see what you guys are saying.

*This actually did happen to a friend of mine where she spent 15 minutes on the phone with me attempting to find her way through the Great Hall. I'm impressed with how well-versed I am in navigating through Union.

It would be one thing if they put a Museum Campus logo on a bus stop with a bus that goes there. Or put "via Union Station" on the destination signs of all buses that go by it (not just 156, but all routes).

But, in any event, I doubt that the flyer was well enough publicized that you didn't have to go to some effort to find it, and once you did find it, it seemed totally incomprehensible to me. And at least I knew enough about using the CTA site to figure out which bus to take from Union Station to jury duty. I doubt there is going to be a special letter for that.

[MetroShadow]

It would be one thing if they put a Museum Campus logo on a bus stop with a bus that goes there. Or put "via Union Station" on the destination signs of all buses that go by it (not just 156, but all routes).

But, in any event, I doubt that the flyer was well enough publicized that you didn't have to go to some effort to find it, and once you did find it, it seemed totally incomprehensible to me. And at least I knew enough about using the CTA site to figure out which bus to take from Union Station to jury duty. I doubt there is going to be a special letter for that.

Well it IS the RTA website (where I've fished it), after all.