Hammond Transit

[Busjack]

2 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

I was actually  living in Hammond  in 1996 and 1997 and personally  saw these buses, not knowing then that the contractors had changed.  I still hadn't realized that  there was a change  until I moved back to Hammond in  2001.  I noticed  the different fleet, but the Coach USA sticker on the side rear made me investigate a  little more..  I found  out about Progressive  and it turned out  that I lived 5 minutes from their facility.

Thanks for the personal perspective. I guess, though, that the more likely scenario is that since the buses were already second hand, one contractor just sold them to another for not much, as Vancom didn't have much further use for them (or much else, as it sold out to someone else).

[andrethebusman]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

As you later noted, not until SW took over operation of 895, which Coach USA seems to have received as a "consolation prize."

 

Vancom running similar buses in Naperville indicates to the contrary. Seems like Hammond never owned buses, the closest to public ownership being that NIRPC owned the Opi.

Hammond under ATC originally had a mishmash of buses, 4521's, 5307's, even a few AM Generals. Then ATC sent over 10 rehabbed 1978 ex Providence RI RTS's (5790-5799) which were ATC numbers. The ones in Napervilee were 3431-3433, which came from ATC's DeKalb operations.

[andrethebusman]

Let me try to explain what happened with Gray Line. Originally the downtown runs, along with the local service, was run by Chicago & Calumet District Transit, which was a subsidiary of a conglomerate called Chromalloy American Corp. After the local service shut down in 1973, downtown service continued for a couple of years. Chromally was no longer interested in C&CDT, so sold it to a consortium of employees, including the maintenance manager, terminal manager, and a couple of other people. They set up an entity with a name made up of three initials, something like RBP, Inc or something like that, the exact ones escape me at the moment, and moved operations from Hammond to Monroe and Morgan west of downtown. They also bought the Gray Line rights and started operating as "Chicago Gray Line", using the GL red and silver scheme. Had less than a dozen buses. When they went bankrupt and shut down, the Gray Line franchise was sold to an outfit called Jimmie's Bus Service, who then apparently sold it to someone else without using it. Hammond Yellow ended up running the commuter buses.

Gray Line originally was a Ferroni operation at 29th and Wabash (Chicago Sightseeing) since the 1930's at least. For some reason, about 1973 or so Ferroni decided to go with American Sightseeing and sold the Gray Line franchise to the guys on Morgan. For a while in the 1990's, apparently between Jimmie's and Aries, Ferroni got the Gray Line back, and was running as both American Sightseeing and Gray Line.

[andrethebusman]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

Thanks for the personal perspective. I guess, though, that the more likely scenario is that since the buses were already second hand, one contractor just sold them to another for not much, as Vancom didn't have much further use for them (or much else, as it sold out to someone else).

Just like the school buses - when the Board of Ed changes contractors, the new contractor buys the assets of the old one.

[Busjack]

3 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

Chicago & Calumet District Transit

Which was branded as Shore Line, and this is as I mentioned.

[andrethebusman]

Just now, Busjack said:

Which was branded as Shore Line, as I mentioned.

"Shore Line Motor Coach" was actually an outfit from the 1920's that ran Chicago to Detroit. Shore Line's local service 63rd to Gary was bought by Gary Railways about 1930, and merged with another early outfit that ran the same route, Midwest Motor Coach. When Gary Railways went bust as part of the Insull bankruptcy in the 30's, the route (along with all other Gary Rys routes in Hammond and East Chicago) were sold to Chicago & Calumet District Transit Co, which later also took over and bussed Hammond-Whiting-east Chicago streetcar outfit. Gary Rys, which had an extensive bus operation with over 50 buses before bankruptcy, was left with one bus route, 8th Ave, and 6 buses (plus of course the rail lines).

C&CDT Co (which was later part of ATC as C&CDT Corp, then ATC became part of Chromalloy) always used the "Shore Line Motor Coach" name, that is how they answered their phone, that was the sign over the window at the Gary Greyhound station (5th and Adams) where you bought tickets for the Chicago bus (actually a cash register receipt), even though there hadn't actually been a company of that name in decades.

 

[Busjack]

Actually, Shore Line was painted on the side of the buses, and there was also a banner logo that said Chicago and Calumet District Transit Company.

That's the branding to which I referred. (And as @artthouwill said with regard to his posts, I lived in Hammond at the time).

There was also a Shore Line in South Bend.

BTW, do you ever respond directly to anyone else?

[andrethebusman]

Never heard of anything called "Shore Line" in South Bend. The private operator was Northern Indiana Transit Corp (a National City Lines operation)

As to what happened with Gary running Hammond, here is the story:

Until 1973, there were two entities involved with Gary: Gary Transit had the franchise for all routes within the city limits. Gary Intercity Lines had the franchises for everything outside of Gary, such as Hammond, Indiana Harbor, Crown Point, Hobart, Portage. Intercity also had interstate charter rights. In 1973 all service outside Gary was abandoned, almost at the same time Shore Line quit (except for route 3, which ran about 6 months longer, as it was interstate). However, Intercity was kept because of the charter rights.

When GPTC took over, they took over Gary Transit, but not Intercity. In fact, Intercity was retained by GPTC as the contract operator for the city system. As an aside, there was a major scandal at GPTC soon after, as the GPTC manager, a guy by the name of Holland, had bought Intercity, which was still a private company, with him as the sole stockholder. So in effect, he, as owner of Intercity, was contracting with himself, as manager of GPTC. There were allegations of sweetheart deals and kickbacks, and if I remember a couple of people went to prison.

Now when Hammond Transit started, they contracted with Intercity to run the place. However, since Intercity had no buses of its own, they used GPTC buses. Hammond Transit was essentially a charter by Intercity, and somebody in the Gary political system made a stink about federally-funded buses being used on a charter, and Intercity was forced to cease and desist.

Also, there was originally a "Hammond" route 4, from Whiting down Indianapolis Blvd to Munster, operated under contract to North Township. This apparently was very short-lived, as later there were only routes 1 thru 3 and 5.

[Busjack]

6 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

Never heard of anything called "Shore Line" in South Bend. The private operator was Northern Indiana Transit Corp (a National City Lines operation)

Seen it in South Bend, and had the same green and yellow buses.

Is this going to result in another disgorge of your files?

[andrethebusman]

Yes, same Green/Yellow/White paint job, but very different ownership.

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

Never heard of anything called "Shore Line" in South Bend. The private operator was Northern Indiana Transit Corp (a National City Lines operation)

As to what happened with Gary running Hammond, here is the story:

Until 1973, there were two entities involved with Gary: Gary Transit had the franchise for all routes within the city limits. Gary Intercity Lines had the franchises for everything outside of Gary, such as Hammond, Indiana Harbor, Crown Point, Hobart, Portage. Intercity also had interstate charter rights. In 1973 all service outside Gary was abandoned, almost at the same time Shore Line quit (except for route 3, which ran about 6 months longer, as it was interstate). However, Intercity was kept because of the charter rights.

When GPTC took over, they took over Gary Transit, but not Intercity. In fact, Intercity was retained by GPTC as the contract operator for the city system. As an aside, there was a major scandal at GPTC soon after, as the GPTC manager, a guy by the name of Holland, had bought Intercity, which was still a private company, with him as the sole stockholder. So in effect, he, as owner of Intercity, was contracting with himself, as manager of GPTC. There were allegations of sweetheart deals and kickbacks, and if I remember a couple of people went to prison.

Now when Hammond Transit started, they contracted with Intercity to run the place. However, since Intercity had no buses of its own, they used GPTC buses. Hammond Transit was essentially a charter by Intercity, and somebody in the Gary political system made a stink about federally-funded buses being used on a charter, and Intercity was forced to cease and desist.

Also, there was originally a "Hammond" route 4, from Whiting down Indianapolis Blvd to Munster, operated under contract to North Township. This apparently was very short-lived, as later there were only routes 1 thru 3 and 5.

If you are referring to Hammond routes, I guess there was a realignment at some point.  What you referred to as  Rt 4 actually became Rt 1.  During my time there in Hammond,  this was the only HRS route  ran with 2 buses.  Rt 4 was the route that served the Highland Apts on Kennedy Ave just North of the Highland border as well as Hessville, Woodmar, Dan Rabin Transit Center, and East Chicago South Shore station.  Rt 2 and Rt 5 also served  Woodmar Mall. Rt 5 served Kmart and Ultra in Highland.  You could connect there to the Ridge Rd Gary route.  Rt 1 connected with CTA routes 30 and 106 at 106th and Ewing. I believe Gary Rt 12 was the Tri City route connecting Gary with East Chicago and the Dan Rabin Transit Center in Hammond, where connections could be made with Pace routes 350, 355, and 364.  Interestingly,  Hammond Yellow had commuter buses running on Hohman Ave to downtown but didn't serve the transit center while most, but not all 355s did. 

 

  

[andrethebusman]

There were several realignments over the years. Biggest was apparently when ATC took over. Hammond Yellow ran routes similar to what Gary had run.

[Busjack]

18 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

Yes, same Green/Yellow/White paint job, but very different ownership.

I'm sort of surprised that National City Lines would let someone else use their distinctive trade dress, if it did.

Hence, I believe, that like most current beers and failing businesses, one does not know what the ownership really was.

[andrethebusman]

21 hours ago, Busjack said:

I'm sort of surprised that National City Lines would let someone else use their distinctive trade dress, if it did.

Hence, I believe, that like most current beers and failing businesses, one does not know what the ownership really was.

NCL and ATC in the 1940's and 50's used almost identical paint jobs of yellow/green/white. Under by 1960's ATC went to a darker, almost olive green and white.

[andrethebusman]

Found this on Google. Note how it is labeled - National City Lines/Shore Line. Actual paint job is the 1950's C&CDT.

[andrethebusman]

And here is a version that is unmistakably NCL - Los Angeles Transit Lines. Identical. You are right - there most likely was some corporate relationship at the time. Just too close in appearance not to be.

[Busjack]

15 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

Found this on Google. Note how it is labeled - National City Lines/Shore Line. Actual paint job is the 1950's C&CDT.

All I can say is that unlike most replicas, that's definitely how a Shore Line bus of the pre-500 series looked.

There seem to be other coincidences, such as that Gary buses were not these colors, but coral, Hammond, by the 1950s had only GM buses, and Hammond dropped streetcar service (including the interline with CSL) at about the same time as the so called NCL conspiracy.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, andrethebusman said:

there most likely was some corporate relationship at the time

What's interesting after doing some crude research is that while the criminal antitrust case  said that National City Lines owned 46 transit systems, there are indications that GM may have controlled as many as 1000 transit companies, including Omnibus Corporation of America, which was the instigator of bustitution in NYC, as well as the owner of Chicago Motor Coach.

Also, the rise of ATC in the early 1950s seems at least coincidental with GM pulling out of the business,whether as a result of the antitrust case or independent of it. Buses like the ones you pictured were acquired in the 1940s.

[andrethebusman]

In 1940, when the interstate lines were dropped, there was no longer any connection corporately between Gary Rys and Chicago & Calumet District Transit Co. C&CDT was set up to take over Gary Rys's bus business in Hammond and East Chicago after the Insull collapse. Gary Rys went its way, C&CDT its. However, all the way to 1973, there were still intercompany transfers between the two. A transfer off C&CDT 3 was good for 25 cents towards the fare on any Gary route, and apparently vice versa. Might have also applied at Hammond, never rode that Gary route.

Also, if anybody is interested, this is what was running in Hammond in late 1992:

HAMMOND TRANSIT SYSTEM 11/92 opb INDIANA BUS SERVICE

3429       T7H603      A281              SBL     1980
3430       T7H603      A280              SBL     1980
3868       T6H4521A    102               CBS     1968
3869       T6H4521A    359               IBS     1969
3871       T6H4521A    103               IBS     1968
4006       T6H4521A    441               IBS     1969
4007       T8H5307A    2466              IBS     1974
4050       T8H5307A    1185              IBS     1973
4644       T8H5308A    397               SBL     1976
4795       TW7603      041               CBS     1978
5096       TW7603      047               IBS     1978
5097       TW7603      254               CBS     1978

owner codes:

IBS - Indiana Bus Service
CBS - Calumet Bus Service
SBL - School Bus Leasing

note - buses are numbered in order of acquisition in common with
Vancom's school buses, which are numbered from about 1000 thru 5500

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, andrethebusman said:

In 1940, when the interstate lines were dropped, there was no longer any connection corporately between Gary Rys and Chicago & Calumet District Transit Co. C&CDT was set up to take over Gary Rys's bus business in Hammond and East Chicago after the Insull collapse. Gary Rys went its way, C&CDT its. However, all the way to 1973, there were still intercompany transfers between the two. A transfer off C&CDT 3 was good for 25 cents towards the fare on any Gary route, and apparently vice versa. Might have also applied at Hammond, never rode that Gary route.

Also, if anybody is interested, this is what was running in Hammond in late 1992:

HAMMOND TRANSIT SYSTEM 11/92 opb INDIANA BUS SERVICE

3429       T7H603      A281              SBL     1980
3430       T7H603      A280              SBL     1980
3868       T6H4521A    102               CBS     1968
3869       T6H4521A    359               IBS     1969
3871       T6H4521A    103               IBS     1968
4006       T6H4521A    441               IBS     1969
4007       T8H5307A    2466              IBS     1974
4050       T8H5307A    1185              IBS     1973
4644       T8H5308A    397               SBL     1976
4795       TW7603      041               CBS     1978
5096       TW7603      047               IBS     1978
5097       TW7603      254               CBS     1978

owner codes:

IBS - Indiana Bus Service
CBS - Calumet Bus Service
SBL - School Bus Leasing

note - buses are numbered in order of acquisition in common with
Vancom's school buses, which are numbered from about 1000 thru 5500

Looks more like a list from 1982 and not 1992.  I guarantee the oldest buses on this list weren't running in 1992.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

Looks more like a list from 1982 and not 1992.  I guarantee the oldest buses on this list weren't running in 1992.

Someone here has pictures saying in 1993, although why it says South Holland is beyond me (maybe that was the Van Der Aa yard).

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

Someone here has pictures saying in 1993, although why it says South Holland is beyond me (maybe that was the Van Der Aa yard).

South Holland  is where Van Der Aa was licated.  They were in the vicinity of the Pace Acceptance Facility.   I remember seeing some buses spearheading on 16tth, River Oaks Dr and 159th/162nd and some used I 80/94.  But I only remember the RTS buses.  

ATC also operated Huskie Line in Dekalb.  At one time they had 3 RTS buses  around 1983.  They were  numbered  1005, 1006, 1007.  They wound up vetting rid of them, claiming they were too expensive to  operate. 

[andrethebusman]

16 hours ago, artthouwill said:

South Holland  is where Van Der Aa was licated.  They were in the vicinity of the Pace Acceptance Facility.   I remember seeing some buses spearheading on 16tth, River Oaks Dr and 159th/162nd and some used I 80/94.  But I only remember the RTS buses.  

ATC also operated Huskie Line in Dekalb.  At one time they had 3 RTS buses  around 1983.  They were  numbered  1005, 1006, 1007.  They wound up vetting rid of them, claiming they were too expensive to  operate. 

Huskie 1005-1007 ended up 3430, 3429, 3428, 2 in Hammond, one in Naperville midday service. 5780-5789 replaced all above circa 1993. Above list came from Indiana DOT.

 

[artthouwill]

26 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

Huskie 1005-1007 ended up 3430, 3429, 3428, 2 in Hammond, one in Naperville midday service. 5780-5789 replaced all above circa 1993. Above list came from Indiana DOT.

 

It certainly  crossed my mind that  those Huskie RTSs wound up in Hammond.  I didn't  know if ATC had a company wide numbering system or contract specific numbering system 

 

[Busjack]

On 1/23/2018 at 5:54 PM, andrethebusman said:

Shore Line's local service 63rd to Gary was bought by Gary Railways about 1930, and merged with another early outfit that ran the same route, Midwest Motor Coach. When Gary Railways went bust as part of the Insull bankruptcy in the 30's, the route (along with all other Gary Rys routes in Hammond and East Chicago) were sold to Chicago & Calumet District Transit Co, which later also took over and bussed Hammond-Whiting-east Chicago streetcar outfit.

Again, some crude research into this indicates that the corporate tree is not through Gary Railways, but through C&CD, which several sources (Shore Line Interurban Society, Don's Rail ) indicate is descended from HW&EC, which Don says was controlled by the South Chicago Street Railway, went bust, became Calumet Railways, bought a competing bus carrier (I guess the Gary Railways reference), also failed and then became C&CD, and went all bus in 1940. Since the corporate name still reflected on the banner logo (as I observed in real life and as on the model) is C&CD, it gets down to who controlled that before it was taken over by ATC (according to Bill V., around 1955, long after the yellow buses appeared).