Minneapolis "t" Buses....

[TMC-RTS-08]

I saw two new Minneapolis Metro Gillig BRTs driving along on Interstate 80 outside Grand Island, Nebraska last week. I also saw a new Gillig Advantage at a rest stop, but didn't know what transit agency it was for. I guess thats how they deliever new buses by driving them to their clients. Do they drive these buses from the factory in California to their customers like that? Wow talk about breaking them in and mileage accumulation!:blink:

[MVTArider]

Im not very happy with the fair increase, Thats expensive for me and I go through bus cards faster. some of the new diesel buses Have loud brakes and dont drive very smooth. several of the 400 buses ive Have rode drive better then some of the 1100 buses they got recently. the hybrids however drive pretty smooth what i find interesting is that the hybrids they got last year have a different seat design and frame then the ones they got this year

Yeah, that fare is getting expensive alright, I have seen a lot of people fishing for an extra quarter. I think a lot of the 400's run better than the newer ones too. I've even been on some of the old 2300's that run better than the new ones

As to the original hybrids being different we suspect they came from Rochester NY after they rejected them. I think that discussion was 1 -2 pages ago if you haven't seen it already. I have had pretty good rides on the new hybrids, its weird they are different though since they're the same thing except with a battery pack on the roof

I saw two new Minneapolis Metro Gillig BRTs driving along on Interstate 80 outside Grand Island, Nebraska last week. I also saw a new Gillig Advantage at a rest stop, but didn't know what transit agency it was for. I guess thats how they deliever new buses by driving them to their clients. Do they drive these buses from the factory in California to their customers like that? Wow talk about breaking them in and mileage accumulation!

I asked the driver who was delivering 7174 when they stopped by Apple Valley Transit Station for a Cedar Ave. thing and he said they drive them simply because its the cheapest way to get them there. It also makes sure there isn't anything wrong with it as well. I guess. I used to think they brought them in on a train or something but then I saw in the New Flyer discussion people were saying they were driven. I did see a MBTA New Flyer being driven from St. Cloud once so I guess they drive buses all the way to any state or providence, except Hawaii of course. I think that would be a cool job driving new buses around the country. BTW did you happen to catch a # on the BRT's you saw?

[Busjack]

... he said they drive them simply because its the cheapest way to get them there. It also makes sure there isn't anything wrong with it as well. I guess. I used to think they brought them in on a train or something but then I saw in the New Flyer discussion people were saying they were driven.

The usual is that they are driven. In Chicago there was the stink that some delivery person had taken a Nova on a sidetrip to Detroit, and after that CTA insisted that the Novas be delivered on a flat bed truck. Apparently, though, that isn't the case with New Flyers, given all the I-90 reports.

I also remember on another bus group there were drivers with CDLs looking around for bus delivery jobs.

[MVTArider]

... In Chicago there was the stink that some delivery person had taken a Nova on a sidetrip to Detroit, and after that CTA insisted that the Novas be delivered on a flat bed truck...

Stop by and see the family on the way Actually a Nova LFS might be kind of handy to help someone move too.

MVTA Board update newsletters April-May June-July

[Tcmetro]

Rode 1120 today, that was a lousy ride. It is already shaking bad and the brakes shrieked so loud the passengers waiting at the stops were covering their ears 4340 is back, I got a lousy shot of it. I also got a few other pics as well.

BTW TC, do you know who runs those 30 or 35 ft Gillig Phantoms that are white? I saw one on 94 and another in Minneapolis downtown. I know St. Thomas by the Mpls. Greyhound has one thats wrapped, #534 IIRC.

EDIT: I wonder what the chances are of getting NF Excel's for Cedar? Also 489P was being served by a cutaway yesterday afternoon and the 1pm trip on 446 had one today as well. It was a little crowded though after Brown College since there were 14 others on board.

I thought that might happen with the Gilligs. The 30' Gillig LF's on the BeLine are horrible, I hate riding them. The problem is that the Gillig LF isn't proven in major transit systems. Minneapolis is the largest operator of Gilligs, San Jose and Pittsburgh are the other largest cities with them.

I am pretty sure that the St. Thomas Gillig's are run by Schmitty & Sons

http://www.schmittyandsons.com/transit.html

Wow, I don't think I have ever seen a 446 with more than 3 people on it, often I see zero. Then again I don't see them during rush hour.

[MVTArider]

I haven't really ridden the BeLine buses too much, just a couple 5 - 10 minute trips so I don't really have a 'smoothness of ride' opinion on them other than I remember they are weird riding over the rear wheels, although they are probably still better than an ailing cutaway Have you been on any low floor Gilligs that ride well? I don't know why but I still have yet to ride an MVTA Gillig newer than '03, however IMO the '03's seem pretty good coming in a semi-close second to NF. Same with the three RCL Advantages I was on. The MetroBus ones I was on seemed okay too. Then on the other side there's 1120, which was bad, and a U Advantage I was on was shaking too.

It will be interesting to see what MT gets next after the BRT batch, which I believe is supposed to be 300+ right?

446 when I have been on it used to just have 3-5 people from ETS, but lately it has been picking up all along the route from ETS as well. I haven't ridden around past ETS to Diffley and Blackhawk yet but when I do see it back there its usually empty. I would assume there are some riders on that part though or they would change it.

In other news I noticed this interesting line in the Sept. MVTA Board Meeting Summary:

He (Bill Droste) also questioned how people are supposed to know about bus routes when there are no shelters and/or signage on major roads to direct riders to bus stops. Lois Spear and Beverley Miller noted that funds have been budgeted for a demonstration project this year and gradually over the next several years to convert from a flag system to a route system.

That will be nice to have actual bus stops instead of wondering if this is the best spot to wait.

[Tcmetro]

I haven't really ridden the BeLine buses too much, just a couple 5 - 10 minute trips so I don't really have a 'smoothness of ride' opinion on them other than I remember they are weird riding over the rear wheels, although they are probably still better than an ailing cutaway Have you been on any low floor Gilligs that ride well? I don't know why but I still have yet to ride an MVTA Gillig newer than '03, however IMO the '03's seem pretty good coming in a semi-close second to NF. Same with the three RCL Advantages I was on. The MetroBus ones I was on seemed okay too. Then on the other side there's 1120, which was bad, and a U Advantage I was on was shaking too.

It will be interesting to see what MT gets next after the BRT batch, which I believe is supposed to be 300+ right?

446 when I have been on it used to just have 3-5 people from ETS, but lately it has been picking up all along the route from ETS as well. I haven't ridden around past ETS to Diffley and Blackhawk yet but when I do see it back there its usually empty. I would assume there are some riders on that part though or they would change it.

In other news I noticed this interesting line in the Sept. MVTA Board Meeting Summary:That will be nice to have actual bus stops instead of wondering if this is the best spot to wait.

I think the Met Council is exercising most or all options on the order. The base order is for 150 diesels and 164 hybrids, and the options are 150 diesels and 150 hybrids. In the latest Transportation Committee metting the U of M will get 1 hybrid bus with an option of 2 more (If the U can come up with the money, I guess).

http://councilmeetings.metc.state.mn.us/Tr...13_2008_279.pdf

Good news, MVTA needs bus stops with the increased ridership. Especially areas like HOC, Burnsville Ctr, Eagan Town Ctr, and DT Apple Valley. In a now deleted rider alert about the Hwy 13 bus stops, it mentioned 'to watch out for new signage' which has yet to happen.

[exitzero]

Argh, branch letters.

I was looking at some of the MVTA schedules today and I just don't understand the reasons why they continue to cling to them. In MVTA's case, they could easily lose quite a few of the branch letters and still be able to differentiate areas served.

460: Why have a U branch for buses that go to the U? Does the fact that the destination sign says "University of Minnesota" not help? Either cut that branch or rename it the 461.

464: The 464A could easily be called the 463. They hardly serve the same area so why bundle it under one route number?

465: Southbound, why aren't 465s simply 460s? Shouldn't what's shown as the 465A simply be the 465? Again, 465Us could be re-designated 466.

470: So, all 470s end at Eagan TS, while the 470D and 470H continue on to Yankee Doodle and Donald and Blackhawk P&R. Why not call the D branch the 471 and the Blackhawk branch the 473 (or hell, the 472? See below.)

472: Why is there a different route that goes to the same place via a different routing? After you answer that question, here's another: Why make Blackhawk P&R the terminus for the 472? Why not just make the C branch the 472 and the W branch the 474?

476: The 476A could easily drop the A branch letter and become the 476, while the 476V could easily become the 475.

477: The 477F could easily become the 478. Do we care that some 477s go via MoA? Why do we need the 'R' branch to signify that?

480: If the 480 has to terminate at Blackhawk P&R, then the 480A branch could become the 481 and the 480B branch could become the 482. Personally, I think that the 480 could assume all of the 480A branch with the 480B taking up 481.

489: The 489 is a route to and from downtown. So why are they calling the route that goes to Parkview Plaza the 489P? It should have some local route number, like the 437.

Getting rid of branch letters...one route at a time. Next up: Sector 6.

[MVTArider]

...

Good news, MVTA needs bus stops with the increased ridership. Especially areas like HOC, Burnsville Ctr, Eagan Town Ctr, and DT Apple Valley....

I'm looking forward to it I wonder if they will redesign the look of the sign? I hope they start putting route #'s on again.

Argh, branch letters.

...

Getting rid of branch letters...one route at a time. Next up: Sector 6.

Makes sense to me Especially putting 460 and 465 together with 460 going to/from BTS and 465 as the current 465A. Making UofM service another # seems like a good idea to me too. I don't mind some branch letters like 445A showing it stops at the Blue Cross canopy but when routes start going in different directions then IMO you need different route #'s. Stuff like 445D being used to show the bus no longer goes to the Y with regular service, you need to ask the driver to go there, makes sense as well. However I hope they just make it [(445 Dodd & Opperman) flip (445 Eagan)] eventually.

BTW if you think planning trips with our branch letters is fun try planning a trip with the RCL system map :D

[MVTArider]

Here is a rough sketch I drew up of my idea for an improved MT bus stop sign. Hope it works on other computers since it originated from Appleworks I was thinking maybe the nextrip system could be used like other places where you enter the stop # and it tells you when the next bus should arrive.

EDIT: Emphasis on rough sketch, I meant Mpls. not Mlps. :)

[Tcmetro]

1) I hate the branch letters. However they are useful in some cases due to the nature of the bus system. Pittsburgh needs to change theirs though!!!

2) That bus stop design is FAR BETTER than the existing one. Interestingly MVTA bus stops used to have route numbers. If you look closely the sign says ROUTES:, but it is blanked out. There is a bus stop on route 426 somewhere that says 35M (the old number) in large letters.

[MVTArider]

^Thanks Man. I have seen some signs with #'s in pictures but I didn't know there were any still out. I'll probably try doing another sign mock up eventually when I have the time, try to be a little neater and save it at a higher # of bytes :lol:

[MVTArider]

Well no classes today so my Dad and I went to that Met Council open house on the 2030 plan at 6th and Cedar. Anyways after getting off the train at 28th ave. I saw a Septa NF C?DE?40LF #8181 going to Detroit Diesel. It had "SEPTA" on its destination sign and IIRC it said 111 in its run # box. BTW point of clarification, I found out that that Detroit Diesel location by MOA is not only for DD's but they also service the Allison Transmissions. Therefore my earlier sighting of a 400 low floor there does not mean it has DD as I originally thought, my bad Also in their lot was a SWMT MCI 3xx I can't remember the other #'s. I was just impressed to see a Septa bus there. Oh how I wish I had my camera with me there :(

[Tcmetro]

I saw a SEPTA D40LF not to long ago as well over there.

I also saw an attack ad on Al Franken showing a businessman running after a blue 40' Gillig LF with the orange LED destination sign displaying "DOWNTOWN". It was for "Voice for Small Business" or something like that. I don't remember the number but I think it was 5xxx.

[TMC-RTS-08]

I asked the driver who was delivering 7174 when they stopped by Apple Valley Transit Station for a Cedar Ave. thing and he said they drive them simply because its the cheapest way to get them there. It also makes sure there isn't anything wrong with it as well. I guess. I used to think they brought them in on a train or something but then I saw in the New Flyer discussion people were saying they were driven. I did see a MBTA New Flyer being driven from St. Cloud once so I guess they drive buses all the way to any state or providence, except Hawaii of course. I think that would be a cool job driving new buses around the country. BTW did you happen to catch a # on the BRT's you saw?

Sorry I wasn't able to get the numbers off of these BRTs. I was driving westbound on I-80 heading to Laramie, WY and I see them going by eastbound. I glimpsed at them and knew they were for Minneapolis Metro because of the paint job and the pics I've seen on here.

[MVTArider]

I saw a SEPTA D40LF not to long ago as well over there.

I also saw an attack ad on Al Franken...

It is sort of odd since I wouldn't expect to see one there. I wonder if a CTA artic will stop by sometime? I just wish I had my camera with me because it would have been a nice pic with a Septa bus and the Hiawatha train right behind it

I saw the attack ad too. I don't remember the # either. It obviously wasn't filmed here, there were no branch letters on the sign

Sorry I wasn't able to get the numbers off of these BRTs. I was driving westbound on I-80 heading to Laramie, WY and I see them going by eastbound. I glimpsed at them and knew they were for Minneapolis Metro because of the paint job and the pics I've seen on here.

Thats alright, I was just wondering. I know its really hard trying to spot #'s on other systems buses as well since they are usually put in different places, like behind the bike rack Thanks for letting us know.

[Guest]

The usual is that they are driven. In Chicago there was the stink that some delivery person had taken a Nova on a sidetrip to Detroit, and after that CTA insisted that the Novas be delivered on a flat bed truck. Apparently, though, that isn't the case with New Flyers, given all the I-90 reports.

I also remember on another bus group there were drivers with CDLs looking around for bus delivery jobs.

Well that "stink" was justified. If youre given the responsibility to deliver a vehicle, your job is to deliver that vehicle. I think CTA was in the right to change their delivery procedures concerning the Nova deliveries. That driver had no right to decide to take it upon himself and and "goof off" when he was given a job to deliver a bus just to visit a friend in Detroit, that was totally irresponsible and wrong. I hope he was fired for that.

[MVTArider]

Well heres a couple interesting things from the Met Council site:

transfer of four Phantoms to Plymouth Metrolink

two more replacement buses for Metrolink off Gillig contract

BTW I did another draft of a pipe dream bus stop sign which is better IMO, it just won't let me upload it for some reason :lol:

[Busjack]

Well heres a couple interesting things from the Met Council site:

transfer of four Phantoms to Plymouth Metrolink

At least the Pace Board doesn't have to approve moving junk around for spares. (This does say it is an interdivisional transfer, not like Pace selling buses to CTA.)

[MVTArider]

At least the Pace Board doesn't have to approve moving junk around for spares. (This does say it is an interdivisional transfer, not like Pace selling buses to CTA.)

Do you mean within the Pace system or Between CTA and Pace? That would be a waste of time holding board meetings to move say Orion VI's from one garage to another. At least the buses getting transfered are only 13 years old (I assume) and not the 23 year old ones from MVTA, although I wouldn't mind taking one more ride

========

My Dad went to the Cedar Ave. meeting this morning and found out from someone that the buses will be 40-42 ft ones but who they come from is wide open. The Gillig contract with MT/Met Council doesn't mean we get those :)

[mplsguy08]

well ive been wondering a few things. the new hybrids started at 7110-7128 ( 2007) and the ones they got this year started at 7140, So why are there no 7129-7139 hybrids? Also in the 600 buses there is no bus marked 666 is that because its supposed to be a unlucky number or something? there is also no 700 bus either.

[Busjack]

Do you mean within the Pace system or Between CTA and Pace? That would be a waste of time holding board meetings to move say Orion VI's from one garage to another.

Within Pace. That's what it seemed that TC Metro did from that announcement (or at least analogous to Pace transferring 6600s to Academy), when it referred to an intradivisional transfer. Now, if that wasn't the case (i.e. a Pace selling to CTA situation, instead, but even then it doesn't take much decision making to put a bus on the "sale of buses" request for proposals list), you would know, and I wouldn't.

[MVTArider]

well ive been wondering a few things. the new hybrids started at 7110-7128 ( 2007) and the ones they got this year started at 7140, So why are there no 7129-7139 hybrids? Also in the 600 buses there is no bus marked 666 is that because its supposed to be a unlucky number or something? there is also no 700 bus either.

I'm not sure why they left a space other than probably to keep the "BRT" style hybrids in their own group. Although if that is the reason it would probably make more sense to have started them at 7200 or something. I assume there is no 666 bus, I certainly haven't seen one, because of the "mark of the beast" factor. My guess is there isn't one so much to avoid a "cursed" bus but rather to avoid having superstitious riders avoiding it or vandalizing it. IIRC a #420 bus was renumbered in Canada in someone's fleet because of the amount of drug related graffiti it attracted. BTW have you seen a 420 bus here? The only explanation I can think of for no #700 is it could have possibly been the bus that shooting happened on a while back. Other than that I have no idea

Within Pace. That's what it seemed that TC Metro did from that announcement (or at least analogous to Pace transferring 6600s to Academy), when it referred to an intradivisional transfer. Now, if that wasn't the case (i.e. a Pace selling to CTA situation, instead, but even then it doesn't take much decision making to put a bus on the "sale of buses" request for proposals list), you would know, and I wouldn't.

EDIT: I tried to come up with an example but I don't know enough about the workings of Pace, CTA and RTA and I don't know exactly who owns what with the buses here. I think that with the Plymouth Metrolink transfer it is a case of MT owned the buses but since they were probably purchased with Met Council funds and the Council also funds Metrolink then it is a intradivisional transfer in a sense. I think they just need the official agreement since it isn't just moving Metrolink buses to another Metrolink location as it is with Pace. I know CTA orders their own buses, as does Pace, I'm just not sure if the RTA is involved in that or not, I don't think they are but maybe they used to be. I know also that when MVTA retired the Phantoms they were returned to the Met Council. TCmetro probably knows more about who owns what so I'll defer to him on this

[Busjack]

I tried to come up with an example but I don't know enough about the workings of Pace, CTA and RTA and I don't know exactly who owns what with the buses here. I think that with the Plymouth Metrolink transfer it is a case of MT owned the buses but since they were probably purchased with Met Council funds and the Council also funds Metrolink then it is a intradivisional transfer in a sense. I think they just need the official agreement since it isn't just moving Metrolink buses to another Metrolink location as it is with Pace. I know CTA orders their own buses, as does Pace, I'm just not sure if the RTA is involved in that or not.

The only time the RTA was involved in a bus purchase was 1976 (pre-Pace, but, IIRC, the advertisement was both for the CTA 9600s and RTA 8000s). Basically all it does now is apportion 5307 and other money, and then CTA and Pace advertise their own requests for proposals for purchases or (in Pace's case) sales.

The Metro Transit site says:

Metro Transit is an operating division of the Metropolitan Council. Like transit properties in most metropolitan areas, Metro Transit relies heavily on state and federal money to finance its operations and capital programs.

So, if the Metropolitan Council just doles out money, to different operating divisions and either public authorities or municipal corporations, it would be analogous to the RTA. However, if it is just a matter that it has various operating divisions, in the sense of garages, it would be analogous to Pace. One indication would be if the various operating entities had their own boards.

The situation may also be analogous to what Pace has with some municipalities, i.e. there is an "intergovernmental agreement" where Pace provides the buses and the municipalities pay the fares, but in fact, Pace is subsidizing the municipal operations (at least in Niles). Still, in the cases of Highland Park and Niles, it didn't take a board resolution to swap buses. Pace also had similar deals with mass transit districts (Nortran and Joliet) until it took over their operations.

[Tcmetro]

Metro Transit actually does have buses #420 and #666. The roster on Bill Vandervoot's website is wrong. The list of Phantoms on Busdude.com is correct however.

The Metropolitan Council owns most of the buses in the region. Thus bus transfers between agencies are more like divisional transfers.