Relief Points

[trainman8119]

What is the ideal situation for CTA on a relief point? Is it desired to be at a routes end (as in Jeff Park, or Howard St.) or someplace mid-route, as in a Chicago ave or Foster ave relief point mid route. Or is it just simply a case whoever has the buses to run a route gets it and then it's deal with all the side effects (poor relief points, lots of deadheading, etc.).

For example, I always wondered why Foster was run out of Forest Glen instead of North Park, other than I guess lack of buses. To me that is like Pulaski running out of Kedzie instead of Chicago Ave or 79th St. running out of 74th instead of 77th. It would seem to make a little more sense to have a relief point mid-route, at least then you could have changes in either direction as well as giving options on pull outs.

[rmadisonwi]

What is the ideal situation for CTA on a relief point? Is it desired to be at a routes end (as in Jeff Park, or Howard St.) or someplace mid-route, as in a Chicago ave or Foster ave relief point mid route. Or is it just simply a case whoever has the buses to run a route gets it and then it's deal with all the side effects (poor relief points, lots of deadheading, etc.).

For example, I always wondered why Foster was run out of Forest Glen instead of North Park, other than I guess lack of buses. To me that is like Pulaski running out of Kedzie instead of Chicago Ave or 79th St. running out of 74th instead of 77th. It would seem to make a little more sense to have a relief point mid-route, at least then you could have changes in either direction as well as giving options on pull outs.

"Ideal" depends on the situation. There are some who believe that all reliefs should be at a route's terminal to reduce en-route delays caused by reliefs. This would, however, require paying significant travel time costs to get the operator to said terminal (think: if the #62 had to relieve either at Kinzie & State or at Archer & Cicero or Harlem).

The other "ideal" would be a relief point in the middle of the route, which theoretically can give you the maximum efficiency in terms of optimizing the schedule for the lowest cost (a relief point at a terminal gives you the chance to cut the run once every round-trip, whereas a mid-route relief point gives you the chance to do so twice every round-trip; the more choices you have, the more efficient the schedule can be).

There are also issues with work rules, which limit the amount of time operators can work without a relief as well as set a lower limit on the minimum time an operator must be driving in order for the run to be pickable. Terminal reliefs on really long routes (such as Halsted or Ashland) would make such work virtually impossible to cut in a legal and pickable manner. Therefore, they tend to have the only options being a large number of part-time runs (which don't have a minimum time), or interlining with other routes (which some operators tend to dislike).

On the other hand, mid-route reliefs cause more passenger inconvenience because the passenger on the bus has to sit there while the operator gets set up, logs on to the 15,000 different units, sets the mirrors, resets the mirrors, etc. Plus, if an operator is late for or misses a relief, then the bus must sit there mid-route, with passengers on board.

So, from a quality-of-service standpoint, terminal reliefs are preferred. From a financial efficiency standpoint (which, when you think about it, also trickles down to quality-of-service, because the more money you spend on non-revenue time, or on less efficient run-cuts, the less you have available to actually put a bus on the street), midpoint reliefs are preferred.

I don't know about Foster, except that I'm told that it would be more expensive to run the pull-in and pull-out trips from Jefferson Park to North Park Garage than we currently spend having operators travel from Forest Glen to Jefferson Park. Plus, with the large number of other routes available for interlining, you get some economies of scale at Jefferson Park.

[Busjack]

Another thing mentioned on other boards is the relation of the garage to the relief point. For instance, from the old 69th, the driver could take the 67 bus to 69th and Western to make the relief. Due to the railroad yard west of 74th, that isn't possible, so that might be one reason why Archer assumed that route. That may also be the reason why 49A is assigned to 77th, even though it is (as the crow flies, but not as a bus must travel) within 1/2 mile of 74th. On the other hand, a driver assigned to 74th could take the 75 bus to Halsted. Again, I am just repeating what other have said.

Obviously, with a route like 14, 15, 52, 62, 79, or 126, you can relieve in front of the barn. As previously mentioned, 85 provides a direct relief route from Jefferson Park, while that is more questionable along the Kedzie corridor. Of course, 92 could be relieved directly in front of North Park, but since North Park and Forest Glen are both at about the same latitude (a mistake, in my opinion, made in the 1950s and not easily correctable now, so that is water under the dam) it doesn't make much difference.

By the way, I remember the real old days when a relief on the 1 Drexel-Hyde Park bus was, obviously, made at Drexel and Hyde Park next to the 52 Garage. The main thing that was noticeable then was that the driver changed the thing you put on the seat and rolled the run box on the windshield (maybe also adjusted the mirror).

[trainman8119]

So, from a quality-of-service standpoint, terminal reliefs are preferred. From a financial efficiency standpoint (which, when you think about it, also trickles down to quality-of-service, because the more money you spend on non-revenue time, or on less efficient run-cuts, the less you have available to actually put a bus on the street), midpoint reliefs are preferred.

Thanks, that pretty much explains it. I just used Foster as an example. There are always pros and cons of every situation. I was just wondering if there was a standard of if it is just hit and miss.

[jajuan]

Another thing mentioned on other boards is the relation of the garage to the relief point. For instance, from the old 69th, the driver could take the 67 bus to 69th and Western to make the relief. Due to the railroad yard west of 74th, that isn't possible, so that might be one reason why Archer assumed that route.

I know it's off topic, but is this a spoiler to part of the spring changes coming in March?

[Busjack]

I know it's off topic, but is this a spoiler to part of the spring changes coming in March?

No, it describes what happened at least 12 years ago. The spoiler is already on the home page News Briefs (unless rmadison denies that).

[Danielsmusic]

No, it describes what happened at least 12 years ago. The spoiler is already on the home page News Briefs (unless rmadison denies that).

That's what I thought, too. After it turned out that my initial assumption was wrong, this is the conclusion I came to. I figured it would be better not to post because I really didn't want to get into an argument about something like that.

[jajuan]

No, it describes what happened at least 12 years ago. The spoiler is already on the home page News Briefs (unless rmadison denies that).

If that's the case, 67 is at 74th street garage. Unless it changed assignments in the past two weeks. Your prior post said Archer had assumed this route.

[Busjack]

If that's the case, 67 is at 74th street garage. Unless it changed assignments in the past two weeks. Your prior post said Archer had assumed this route.

No it didn't. It said that you could use the 67 bus from the 69 barn. It also said that Western was (in part) from 69 at that time, but Western was transferred to Archer from 69th (and North Park). If the latter wasn't said there, it was said in the Route Changes at North Park topic.

Maybe the ambiguity is that I said "to Western" and didn't add the implied "to the Western Bus," and you took it to mean "Western Ave." Obviously, the relief for the 67 bus would have been at 69th and Ashland--the barn. Probably still around there.

[jajuan]

No it didn't. It said that you could use the 67 bus from the 69 barn. It also said that Western was (in part) from 69 at that time, but Western was transferred to Archer from 69th (and North Park). If the latter wasn't said there, it was said in the Route Changes at North Park topic.

Maybe the ambiguity is that I said "to Western" and didn't add the implied "to the Western Bus," and you took it to mean "Western Ave." Obviously, the relief for the 67 bus would have been at 69th and Ashland--the barn. Probably still around there.

Yes. When I first read your post during late evening, I did take the meaning to be Western Ave instead of the Western bus. I do see what you're speaking about now. Thanks.

[BUSANGEL#1]

103 has the worse relief points and the most tardy drivers. A couple of times on my trips to 95/Redline on the 34/119, I would wait 10-30minutes for relief at 103rd/Michigan. One time a driver made all 50 passengers switch to a northbound #103. I was late 25 minutes for work. Some days during rush hour I would see 3-5 buses sitting @ 103rd/Michigan waiting on reliefs. Other bad relief spots are 103rd/Cottage Grove (#111), and 79th/Stony(#30) which makes no sense.

[Danielsmusic]

The most annoying thing is the relief point at Clark/Wilson on the 145. When you're going to Wilson and Damen, it's annoying to be so close, yet just out of walking distance. I remember sitting on an Americana for 35 minutes waiting for relief. Apparently the TMC the relief operator was coming on (on the 22) had broken down.

[Danielsmusic]

103 has the worse relief points and the most tardy drivers. A couple of times on my trips to 95/Redline on the 34/119, I would wait 10-30minutes for relief at 103rd/Michigan. One time a driver made all 50 passengers switch to a northbound #103. I was late 25 minutes for work. Some days during rush hour I would see 3-5 buses sitting @ 103rd/Michigan waiting on reliefs. Other bad relief spots are 103rd/Cottage Grove (#111), and 79th/Stony(#30) which makes no sense.

I will agree that 103rd has the worst relief. I've sat at 103rd on the 6 (the old 6) for over half an hour waiting for a relief driver. THERE WERE NO DRIVERS, EVEN AT THE GARAGE!!!

[Guest]

Another thing mentioned on other boards is the relation of the garage to the relief point. For instance, from the old 69th, the driver could take the 67 bus to 69th and Western to make the relief. Due to the railroad yard west of 74th, that isn't possible, so that might be one reason why Archer assumed that route. That may also be the reason why 49A is assigned to 77th, even though it is (as the crow flies, but not as a bus must travel) within 1/2 mile of 74th. On the other hand, a driver assigned to 74th could take the 75 bus to Halsted. Again, I am just repeating what other have said.

Obviously, with a route like 14, 15, 52, 62, 79, or 126, you can relieve in front of the barn. As previously mentioned, 85 provides a direct relief route from Jefferson Park, while that is more questionable along the Kedzie corridor. Of course, 92 could be relieved directly in front of North Park, but since North Park and Forest Glen are both at about the same latitude (a mistake, in my opinion, made in the 1950s and not easily correctable now, so that is water under the dam) it doesn't make much difference.

By the way, I remember the real old days when a relief on the 1 Drexel-Hyde Park bus was, obviously, made at Drexel and Hyde Park next to the 52 Garage. The main thing that was noticeable then was that the driver changed the thing you put on the seat and rolled the run box on the windshield (maybe also adjusted the mirror).

And lets not forget how much we have to listen to the mindless chatter and the extremely annoying loud laughing between drivers as they take their sweet time making their reliefs.

[jajuan]

And lets not forget how much we have to listen to the mindless chatter and the extremely annoying loud laughing between drivers as they take their sweet time making their reliefs.

Yes. That is the most annoying part of it. Everyone on the bus will be like look you've already wasted enough of our time, LET'S GO!!! It's especially aggravating when you're heading to work.

[Danielsmusic]

And lets not forget how much we have to listen to the mindless chatter and the extremely annoying loud laughing between drivers as they take their sweet time making their reliefs.

I KNOW!!! :angry:

[BusExpert32]

Yes. That is the most annoying part of it. Everyone on the bus will be like look you've already wasted enough of our time, LET'S GO!!! It's especially aggravating when you're heading to work.

Yes, it's so true. The only time I've seen any excessive banter between drivers and passengers was back in the summer of 2005 when paper transfers were still distributed at the time. This occured on an eastbound #80 Irving Park at the relief point at Central/Irving Park. I'll explain how it went: There was a woman who was heading to the six corners to catch a #56 on the bus, and at the time of my boarding it was still valid. The two drivers had a loud, annoying discussion outside of the bus, and then one came back in. He started testing the wheelchair lift (it was a Nova) at least three times- basically to waste time. While the woman started loudly screaming that she disproves the driver's time wasting with the lift, and threatened to report him because her transfer had expired due to the relief. It was a fairly young driver who looked befuddled and scared, so he just gave her a new transfer to make her stop. So all this relief did was waste money!

[busfan4022]

On just about every 79th route they all relief in front of the barn, and drivers are still tardy even though the barn is right there! :D

[cta_44499_FG]

Yes, it's so true. The only time I've seen any excessive banter between drivers and passengers was back in the summer of 2005 when paper transfers were still distributed at the time. This occured on an eastbound #80 Irving Park at the relief point at Central/Irving Park. I'll explain how it went: There was a woman who was heading to the six corners to catch a #56 on the bus, and at the time of my boarding it was still valid. The two drivers had a loud, annoying discussion outside of the bus, and then one came back in. He started testing the wheelchair lift (it was a Nova) at least three times- basically to waste time. While the woman started loudly screaming that she disproves the driver's time wasting with the lift, and threatened to report him because her transfer had expired due to the relief. It was a fairly young driver who looked befuddled and scared, so he just gave her a new transfer to make her stop. So all this relief did was waste money!

Sad, but true is the fact that he may of been "wasting time" because the bus was ahead of schedule to begin with. As far as CTA is concerned...the schedule must be adhered to, or it is a violation. While I don't know if that was indeed the situation...its just a guess.

Unfortunately, not all members grasp the concept of a schedule, and it tends to result in situations such as this, especially if a bus is moving..yet is dragging the street for this concept.

Just a thought...

[jajuan]

Sad, but true is the fact that he may of been "wasting time" because the bus was ahead of schedule to begin with. As far as CTA is concerned...the schedule must be adhered to, or it is a violation. While I don't know if that was indeed the situation...its just a guess.

Unfortunately, not all members grasp the concept of a schedule, and it tends to result in situations such as this, especially if a bus is moving..yet is dragging the street for this concept.

Just a thought...

That's one thing I'm also finding myself hoping isn't the case whenever I'm on a bus waiting for a relief driver.