Equipment Rumor Mill

[trainman8119]

There is a rumor floating around that Metra will not be purchasing any more new 1200 series, or similar, rail cars for the Electric District. It is being circulated that some of the recently retired old cars will be pulled out of moth balls and rehabbed for a second time. Where these cars actually are right now is unknown, however there were 4 cars, which I thought were possibly sold, in the Iowa Interstate yard at Purington (127th st) to be moved someplace yesterday. These cars did have the Metra markings painted over, but it is believed by some that those might actually be headed someplace for rehabbing (or total rebuilding ???) and were not sold.

There are some problems with this story, since it is well known the getting parts for these cars is next to impossible, and the fleet is not aging gracefully (especially since maintenance has been pretty much been nonexistent). This will be something interesting to watch over the next few months to see what, if anything, is going on.

[rmadisonwi]

About two weeks ago, I saw a string of about a half-dozen or so old Electric Highliners heading north out of Union Station. Later that weekend (July 6), they were sitting in the UP coach yards (as seen from the Amtrak Hiawatha). They have since disappeared.

They were actually sitting near a few of the ex-Metra, ex-VRE coaches.

[Guest metralink]

I agree this story seems fishy. Capital rebuilds require 100% financing where would they get the funding since Metra is crying poor on the capital side of their budget.

With no capital funding program how would they fund either rebuilds or new?

Could this be tied into the whole bringing back the old CNW coaches and it just kept growing?

[Busjack]

I agree this story seems fishy. Capital rebuilds require 100% financing where would they get the funding since Metra is crying poor on the capital side of their budget.

With no capital funding program how would they fund either rebuilds or new?

Could this be tied into the whole bringing back the old CNW coaches and it just kept growing?

However, a rebuild wouldn't cost the $4 million each that a new car would.

On the other hand, if old electrics were put on the UP-N there would be a question whether the control wiring is compatible with a diesel engine, and about all the high level platform doors, since the rest of Metra lines have low level platforms. There could be workarounds, but not cheap.

[trainman8119]

However, a rebuild wouldn't cost the $4 million each that a new car would.

On the other hand, if old electrics were put on the UP-N there would be a question whether the control wiring is compatible with a diesel engine, and about all the high level platform doors, since the rest of Metra lines have low level platforms. There could be workarounds, but not cheap.

The electrics would stay on the Electric line. They are not compatible with diesel locomotives, and in fact need a special coupler on the switch engine when they go to the Rock Island for wheel work. Any rehabs of Electric District equipment would have those rehabs staying on the Electric...which has a big time equipment shortage these days.

[MetroShadow]

The electrics would stay on the Electric line. They are not compatible with diesel locomotives, and in fact need a special coupler on the switch engine when they go to the Rock Island for wheel work. Any rehabs of Electric District equipment would have those rehabs staying on the Electric...which has a big time equipment shortage these days.

I agree with the incompatibility issue, although didn't one time Metra use a couple of locomotives since there wasn't power on the Electric District to move cars?

Or was that on the South Shore (in which that asks a completely different question)?

[trainman8119]

I agree with the incompatibility issue, although didn't one time Metra use a couple of locomotives since there wasn't power on the Electric District to move cars?

Or was that on the South Shore (in which that asks a completely different question)?

The South Shore at one time had a severe shortage of equipment (in the 80's, I believe) and Metra "loaned" them one set of cars with one locomotive. The current city law regarding air quality along the lake front keeps both from running service with anything but electrics these days. Metra would love to get rid of the electrics and run the service with diesels, but it is not going to happen.

[MVTArider]

....Metra would love to get rid of the electrics and run the service with diesels, but it is not going to happen.

So is there a problem with the electrics? I would think electric would be good given the high cost of diesel fuel now, but if Metra uses so much electricity that it would be cheaper still to just use diesel that would make sense. I have no idea how much power it takes to run a train but I would guess at least as much as an average home uses in a day.

[Busjack]

So is there a problem with the electrics? I would think electric would be good given the high cost of diesel fuel now, but if Metra uses so much electricity that it would be cheaper still to just use diesel that would make sense. I have no idea how much power it takes to run a train but I would guess at least as much as an average home uses in a day.

Scuttlebutt about that is mostly based on that the equipment is not compatible with the rest of the fleet, and costs about $1 million a car more. Metra is still waiting for state capital money to pay for 140 new electric cars, at $4 million each. Apparently, there was no funding source to pay the Metra bonds authorized in the 2008 RTA Act.

The CTA was crying about an Illinois Commerce Commission order about electric rates for trains. That provides some inferential evidence that Metra has a similar issue.

Someone on a Yahoo group posited running conventional Metra cars with electric locomotives. The proposal for the NICTD West Lake line, which would use this r.o.w., was for dual mode electric-diesel locomotives.

As far as how much power it takes, I suppose that one could find an engineer (electric, not train) to convert the about 600 hp per car into kW; then multiply it based on the number of car miles per day to get an estimate of KWh. Google says 1 horsepower = 745.699872 watts. They are running 6 car trains 30 miles at least twice a day, and smaller trains once an hour each way on each of three branches. So, it probably adds up to more than what you think.

[MVTArider]

Well if one Kilowatt = 1000 watts and 1 hp = 745.7 watts (rounded) 600 x 745.7 = 447420 watts or 447.42 kilowatts. 6 cars using 600 hp each would be 447.42 x 6 = 2684.52 kilowatts. According to a question on Wiki answers an average 2 story/3 bedroom home uses about 50 kilowatts a day. So those trains really are pulling a lot of juice off those wires

EDIT: Doing a little more research I found the equation, E = P x T or kilowatt hours = kilowatts x hours. So knowing the kilowatts for the 6 car train just multiply by the number of hours it runs and I guess that should give an idea of how much kwh it uses. Then compare to an electric bill for price. I think thats how it would be done anyways :unsure:

[Busjack]

Well if one Kilowatt = 1000 watts and 1 hp = 745.7 watts (rounded) 600 x 745.7 = 447420 watts or 447.42 kilowatts. 6 cars using 600 hp each would be 447.42 x 6 = 2684.52 kilowatts. According to a question on Wiki answers an average 2 story/3 bedroom home uses about 50 kilowatts a day. So those trains really are pulling a lot of juice off those wires

EDIT: Doing a little more research I found the equation, E = P x T or kilowatt hours = kilowatts x hours. So knowing the kilowatts for the 6 car train just multiply by the number of hours it runs and I guess that should give an idea of how much kwh it uses. Then compare to an electric bill for price. I think thats how it would be done anyways

I was going to make a comment until I saw the edit.

Getting back to just kWs, if you have a standard house with 200 amp service, multiplying V x A=W, that would be 24 kw if you were running everything in the house at the capacity of the circuit breaker. One train pulls 100 times that juice.

Just think how many 60 watt bulbs that is.

[artthouwill]

Again the ME is the stepchild of the Metra system. The problem here is that this line is incompatible with the rest of the system. I wouldn't think diesel engines couldn't run on ME and SS considering freight trains with diesels run next to them through McCormick Place. Does Metra have enough locomotives and special couplers to hook up to the ME cars? Would Metra finally decide (if and when it gets capital money) to order new cars similar to those that NICTD ordered? It is funny that Metra never seems to have much money when it comes time for the ME to receive anything.

Maybe it is time for the Illinois RTA and Indiana's RTD to form some relationship(like NY and NJ with Port Authority) where NICTD could get more cars for ME in exchange for voices on Metra's board and greater voices in operations along the ME line between 115th and dowtown.

[Busjack]

Again the ME is the stepchild of the Metra system. The problem here is that this line is incompatible with the rest of the system. I wouldn't think diesel engines couldn't run on ME and SS considering freight trains with diesels run next to them through McCormick Place. Does Metra have enough locomotives and special couplers to hook up to the ME cars? Would Metra finally decide (if and when it gets capital money) to order new cars similar to those that NICTD ordered? It is funny that Metra never seems to have much money when it comes time for the ME to receive anything.

Maybe it is time for the Illinois RTA and Indiana's RTD to form some relationship(like NY and NJ with Port Authority) where NICTD could get more cars for ME in exchange for voices on Metra's board and greater voices in operations along the ME line between 115th and dowtown.

I have several problems with this analysis.

Whether the ME is the stepchild of the system depends on chronology. It certainly wasn't in the late 70s, when it had all new equipment. On the other hand, the cars received a couple of years ago by the other divisions replaced 50 year old equipment. Apparently the electric equipment wears out a lot faster.

The NICTD/Metra agreement idea has no way of helping Metra. NICTD had to sell bonds, and in effect, mortgage the region's FTA 5307 money for the next 17 years to get its cars. (See these NICTD minutes.) There is no way Indiana could raise money to acquire cars for Metra's use. In fact, Metra owes NICTD cars for Hegewisch service.

Also, Indiana has problems of its own. It is supposedly organizing a Regional Bus Authority, which has no funding, and while it is making a lot of promises, at least a Hammond city councilman has threatened to cancel its buses for next year. See, for instance, this reference from the Times.

Simply stated, there is no pot of gold.

[trainman8119]

Whether the ME is the stepchild of the system depends on chronology. It certainly wasn't in the late 70s, when it had all new equipment. On the other hand, the cars received a couple of years ago by the other divisions replaced 50 year old equipment. Apparently the electric equipment wears out a lot faster.

The NICTD/Metra agreement idea has no way of helping Metra.

A couple of things to keep in mind here. First, all of the current 1500 and 1600 Highliners Metra operates were purchased by the Illinois Central Railroad, not Metra, and began service in 1970. That means they are just about 40 years old, and over the past few years they have let them go to hell. Metra took control of the cars when they took over the IC. Until Metra purchased the 1200 series cars, they did not put a whole heck of a lot of money into the Electric District (short of a new station at University Park and a couple of E zone platform rebuilts) until the South Chicago and Hyde Park platform replacements which began around 2000, and have just been completed around the 3rd of July (75th and 79th streets). The last old Hyde Park platform left is at 59th street. Roosevelt Road and of course, Millenium Park are as much the City of Chicago's doing as as Metra's.

NICTD is not part of Metra. It is a foreign railroad that operates on Metra tracks. The RTA does toss a few bucks its way and Metra does actually own a couple of cars (apparently since Hegewisch is in Illinois), but that is the extent of it. All of this was as a result of the railroad nearly going bankrupt in the 1980's or so, and the State of Indiana and the RTA coming up with a way to keep it running to get the South Bend and Gary people into Chicago on a daily basis.

[Busjack]

A couple of things to keep in mind here. First, all of the current 1500 and 1600 Highliners Metra operates were purchased by the Illinois Central Railroad, not Metra, and began service in 1970. That means they are just about 40 years old.

NICTD is not part of Metra. It is a foreign railroad that operates on Metra tracks. The RTA does toss a few bucks its way and Metra does actually own a couple of cars (apparently since Hegewisch is in Illinois), but that is the extent of it. All of this was as a result of the railroad nearly going bankrupt in the 1980's or so, and the State of Indiana and the RTA coming up with a way to keep it running to get the South Bend and Gary people into Chicago on a daily basis.

Technically, all but the last 15 or so cars were acquired and owned by the South Suburban Mass Transit District. There were still some of the green Pullmans after the first bunch was acquired (remember the 1972 wreck at 27th Street where a green train pancaked a Highliner one, reported in such places as here). I'm not sure if the RTA acquired the last group to finally retire the greens.

Also, while the South Shore was going bankrupt, part of it was that Indiana was withholding payments to the operator until it could take over the railroad. When new cars were acquired in the 80s, 8 were owned by the RTA (see Bill V's roster) and at least originally had RTA logos near the doors instead of NICTD ones. In any event, both the cars and subsidies were to reflect the percentage of South Shore riders from Hegwisch, and the Hegwisch station has a Metra sign, even though NICTD built the improvements to it, such as the high level platforms.

[trainman8119]

About two weeks ago, I saw a string of about a half-dozen or so old Electric Highliners heading north out of Union Station. Later that weekend (July 6), they were sitting in the UP coach yards (as seen from the Amtrak Hiawatha). They have since disappeared.

They were actually sitting near a few of the ex-Metra, ex-VRE coaches.

I guess at least one of the Pullman cars has been repainted in Metra colors. It is numbered 7836. KYD along with 47th street on the Rock Island are when Metra guts and rehabs cars. 47th does most of the gutting and KYD gets into the painting part. I flew by the yard today headed back in, totally missing it on the outbound. I'll have to keep my eyes open next week when I go by to see what is hanging out down there.

[trainman8119]

You can add 7825 as being updated and in the yard with 7836.