CTA roll sign...

[Guest]

Heres an old CTA roll sign that I picked up over the weekend. I still havent looked through the whole sign but it looks North Park bus routings. I had never thought a "150" route existed. This looks about late 60s or early 1970s.

[Busjack]

Heres an old CTA roll sign that I picked up over the weekend. I still havent looked through the whole sign but it looks North Park bus routings. I had never rememberd about the "150"

I might have mentioned it before, but here is the explanation:

When the 7400s were received (in 1974), CTA went from destination only on the front sign, to route and destination, in the style you purchased. Those basically were only on the 7400s.

However, CTA wasn't consistent in its treatment. Some signs just had the red box "Sheridan LaSalle Express," while others had the 150. Your version also has 151 for Sheridan Express routes.

Then when the 9000s appeared a year later, CTA decided to go with the upper and lower case lettering, and officially renumbered the express routes (i.e. the LaSalle ones were put in the 130s and the Michigan ones in the 140s).

So, you have a rarity. When CTA was selling off the signs in 1975 or 1976, I got a side one for 69th barn in that style, but couldn't get a front sign to match.

I also see that the part you unrolled shows Wilson-LaSalle Express in the old style, but Sheridan LaSalle Express in the new one. Does the sign have duplicate readings? Also, since it has 151 Sheridan Express via Foster to Howard RT Station, is there also an Outer Drive Express reading in either format?

[Guest]

I might have mentioned it before, but here is the explanation:

When the 7400s were received (in 1974), CTA went from destination only on the front sign, to route and destination, in the style you purchased. Those basically were only on the 7400s.

However, CTA wasn't consistent in its treatment. Some signs just had the red box "Sheridan LaSalle Express," while others had the 150. Your version also has 151 for Sheridan Express routes.

Then when the 9000s appeared a year later, CTA decided to go with the upper and lower case lettering, and officially renumbered the express routes (i.e. the LaSalle ones were put in the 130s and the Michigan ones in the 140s).

So, you have a rarity. When CTA was selling off the signs in 1975 or 1976, I got a side one for 69th barn in that style, but couldn't get a front sign to match.

I also see that the part you unrolled shows Wilson-LaSalle Express in the old style, but Sheridan LaSalle Express in the new one. Does the sign have duplicate readings? Also, since it has 151 Sheridan Express via Foster to Howard RT Station, is there also an Outer Drive Express reading in either format?

No, there are no #147 routings in this roll. As I go through this sign there is #155 Devon so it is North Pk. So your right this roll sign could only have been on a #7400 GMC. Im still going through as I write this, Ill have more info in a bit....

[Busjack]

No, there are no #147 routings in this roll. As I go through this sign there is #155 Devon so it is North Pk. So your right this roll sign could only have been on a #7400 GMC. Im still going through as I write this, Ill have more info in a bit....

It wouldn't have been 147, but just a red "Outer Drive Express."

Also, the 155 is significant, in that most of the 156s came out of Limits (including nearly, but not all Sheridan LaSalle runs).

[Guest]

I might have mentioned it before, but here is the explanation:

When the 7400s were received (in 1974), CTA went from destination only on the front sign, to route and destination, in the style you purchased. Those basically were only on the 7400s.

However, CTA wasn't consistent in its treatment. Some signs just had the red box "Sheridan LaSalle Express," while others had the 150. Your version also has 151 for Sheridan Express routes.

Then when the 9000s appeared a year later, CTA decided to go with the upper and lower case lettering, and officially renumbered the express routes (i.e. the LaSalle ones were put in the 130s and the Michigan ones in the 140s).

So, you have a rarity. When CTA was selling off the signs in 1975 or 1976, I got a side one for 69th barn in that style, but couldn't get a front sign to match.

I also see that the part you unrolled shows Wilson-LaSalle Express in the old style, but Sheridan LaSalle Express in the new one. Does the sign have duplicate readings? Also, since it has 151 Sheridan Express via Foster to Howard RT Station, is there also an Outer Drive Express reading in either format?

Ok here we go, this huge, long roll sign has forced me into my kitchen! And the only way to get by is to walk on it. I love that this has 152 Addison Limiteds and Express signs. They still have the downtown routings, #151 and such, also the 147 Outer Drive routing is on it. But I dont think it was 147 at the time. 92 Foster begins at the top of the 151 routing. Plus heres my old CTA decal. These are correct size fleet decals. Here are some more signage. My house smells like old CTA roll signs now. Ill have to open windows in a bit, not a bad smell though. What Im also fascinated by this sign as I go through it are the red slashes that would indicate the bus does not travel the entire route. What Id like to find one day is a complete or partial roll sign from North Ave Garage that was installed on a 1000 GMC fishbowl back in the day, or a Marmon trolley roll sign. If anyone reading this knows of someone who has a North Ave rollsign and is willing to sell it. Id appreciate if someone will let me know about it.

[Busjack]

Plenty more to crank out, I'm sure, but this does confirm what I previously asked, that the roll has the "Outer Drive Express" only red box, as well as the 151 Sheridan Express via Foster one.

If I remember correctly, the plain "Sheridan Express" left LSD at Wilson.

Thus, I wonder if the duplicative readings indicated that CTA had some idea to renumber the routes in 1975, but trashed that when it had the 1976 renumbering. I guess we'll never know.

[Guest]

Plenty more to crank out, I'm sure, but this does confirm what I previously asked, that the roll has the "Outer Drive Express" only red box, as well as the 151 Sheridan Express via Foster one.

If I remember correctly, the plain "Sheridan Express" left LSD at Wilson.

Thus, I wonder if the duplicative readings indicated that CTA had some idea to renumber the routes in 1975, but trashed that when it had the 1976 renumbering. I guess we'll never know.

There is still plenty of signage left that I just dont have time now to unravel. That will have wait for another day. I have to roll this up before the wifey gets home so she can walk through here. Shes very understanding of my transit interests. She knows I like to collect transit stuff. I also have to make sure I have my uniform ready for tomorrow at Colonial. Im working Run #11@ 6am on the 616 route if anyone wants to track it.

[Chicago13]

Seems this has to be a pre-1974 sign. Addison service to downtown was discontinued in Sept. '73. If I'm not mistaken the Limited and Express service on Addison was ended at the same time.

Also I don't see an ADDISON-WOLCOTT on there. I distinctly remember Addison short turning there when I was growing up. I always thought that was discontinued at the same time the downtown service was cut.

[Guest]

Seems this has to be a pre-1974 sign. Addison service to downtown was discontinued in Sept. '73. If I'm not mistaken the Limited and Express service on Addison was ended at the same time.

Also I don't see an ADDISON-WOLCOTT on there. I distinctly remember Addison short turning there when I was growing up. I always thought that was discontinued at the same time the downtown service was cut.

ADDISON-WOLCOTT was probably only on the FG buses. Maybe the NP buses didnt have them.

[Busjack]

Seems this has to be a pre-1974 sign. Addison service to downtown was discontinued in Sept. '73. If I'm not mistaken the Limited and Express service on Addison was ended at the same time.

Also I don't see an ADDISON-WOLCOTT on there. I distinctly remember Addison short turning there when I was growing up. I always thought that was discontinued at the same time the downtown service was cut.

I took down my post that these were definitely 1974 signs. They were definitely on the 7400 series buses, but after about 2 hours of contemplation, I remember that I first saw a 7550 or so in Hyde Park, around Thanksgiving, and I lived at the location at issue there until Summer 74, so the 7400s must have started delivery in Summer or Early Fall 73 (NP got 7400s before 69th did). So, having the Addison Express signs was not as irrational as I thought.

I used Chicago Transit and Railfan to refresh my recollection.

So, I'll take my lumps on 74, but not the 7400s. See, for instance, the picture of one at busdrawings.com, with the 155 Devon sign of which 5750 wrote.

[trainman8119]

Seems this has to be a pre-1974 sign. Addison service to downtown was discontinued in Sept. '73. If I'm not mistaken the Limited and Express service on Addison was ended at the same time.

If I recall correctly, 152 and 76 discontinued downtown service when the Milwaukee Ave. L was

extended to Jefferson Park, which would have been in February 1970. It also was at this time

that all the limited stuff on the 56 and 152 also went away, along with a whole mess of other

changes on the northwest side.

[Guest]

If I recall correctly, 152 and 76 discontinued downtown service when the Milwaukee Ave. L was

extended to Jefferson Park, which would have been in February 1970. It also was at this time

that all the limited stuff on the 56 and 152 also went away, along with a whole mess of other

changes on the northwest side.

So could it possibly be new signs spliced into old signs?

[trainman8119]

I will stand corrected that 152 stopped operating downtown in 1973 (Chicago13 was correct),

with the limited stop service ending in September of 1975 (I didn't realize it all went

that long after the Jeff Park extension opened). However, the 56 limited and

76 service downtown did indeed end with that extension opening in 1970.

I was really under the impression that 76 and 152 mirrored each other when it came

to suspending service to the Loop. I never realized that Addison buses from North

Park (where the route was housed after Keeler closed) actually operated downtown,

which it did for about 6 months.

[trainman8119]

So could it possibly be new signs spliced into old signs?

Hey Jerry....hold on to those signs !!!!!! I committed the ultimate blunder

when I moved a few years back. I had 3 rolls of "side" route signs which

I got at the IRM. From what I remember, 2 were FG and one was North Ave.

About 3 or so months after I moved, I realized that I had left those signs

in the garage of the old place, never to be seen again.

ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH !!!!!

[Busjack]

So could it possibly be new signs spliced into old signs?

Getting into that topic, that is a possibility, although somewhat unlikely for this generation of signs.

Look for tape between signs, and stickers changing the readings for the driver's window.

I had mentioned that when I bought the side sign from the CTA, I couldn't get a matching front, but they did give me an old 77th one, which, for the reason you describe (too big), I didn't keep. Among things on it were splices for 1 Drexel Hyde Park to 63-Stony (which they needed on a route truncation basis, although 1 then still ran from 52nd Garage) and (in the Helvetica style) 83 83rd to 79 RT Sta and 92-Commercial. It appears that that sign wasn't needed for at least 25 years.

I also wonder if some of the inconsistencies were spliced into your sign, or if redundant readings (such as the Outer Drive Express and 151 Sheridan Express via Foster) were spliced.

BTW, it looks like several of us had memory problems last night. :o

[Busjack]

I will stand corrected that 152 stopped operating downtown in 1973 (Chicago13 was correct),

with the limited stop service ending in September of 1975 (I didn't realize it all went

that long after the Jeff Park extension opened). However, the 56 limited and

76 service downtown did indeed end with that extension opening in 1970.

I was really under the impression that 76 and 152 mirrored each other when it came

to suspending service to the Loop. I never realized that Addison buses from North

Park (where the route was housed after Keeler closed) actually operated downtown,

which it did for about 6 months.

I think it was more of an issue that 152 was considered an LSD bus (like the 151, 153, etc.) and it took the 1973 cutbacks to realize that duplicative routes going back to the CMC days had to be addressed. Of course, part of the reason for the 152 Limited and Express was to get people from the far western end east faster.

76 may have been coincidental with the Jefferson Park extension, but the Logan Square station was always there. However, with it being replaced by the subway station, maybe CTA first realized that it should feed it.

[trainman8119]

76 may have been coincidental with the Jefferson Park extension, but the Logan Square station was always there. However, with it being replaced by the subway station, maybe CTA first realized that it should feed it.

76, as long as I can remember had rush hour turns at Logan Square. They used

to lay over on Logan Blvd, and did not enter the terminal under the station there.

When the new subway station opened, those runs that ended at the new terminal

were primarily Wrightwood routed buses (be it eastbound in the am and westbound

in the pm). Also the Spaulding entrance was considered the entrance for Diversey,

since that entrance was about a block off Diversey. It wasn't until later that CTA

decided to make that silly reroute via Milwaukee and Kedzie to get all buses into

the terminal at Logan Square. That adds 5-7 minutes to the trip. But then, slowing

things down is what they are good for these days (see discontinued skip stop L

and elimination of conductors as other was to slow things down).

[pudgym29]

I respectfully offer that that roller curtain is from the late 1960s.

When CTA opened the West-Northwest extension to Jefferson Park in 1970, every bus assigned to Forest Glen got new roller curtains, including the few Mack buses still on the roster. (One time, riding with my dad to the Ravenswood data processing center of the Chicago & North Western Railroad, we caught a Mack bus on #81 Lawrence, and it had the newer {than that sign} roller curtains, with both the white on black, and the black on yellow side route signs.)

[Busjack]

I respectfully offer that that roller curtain is from the late 1960s.

I can't speak for Jefferson Park, but since 5750 has a North Park sign, it definitely was on a 7400. Like I said, I kept a similar side one from 69th, and I worked on LaSalle, where I did see the 150 reading, but only on a 7400.

Also, I lived on 55th when the Dan Ryan changes were made, and the signs then were changed to 55 Cicero when the route was extended from Morgan to Cicero-Archer. The 55 Garfield Cicero-Archer signs didn't appear until the 7540s.

Anyway, BusDrawings.com has several Elston-Clybourn buses will definitely old-school signs, in pictures dated in 1974:

349

234

Also a 97 sign (from a bus recently relocated from 69th when the picture was taken), which was much more representative of the signs around 1974 on buses other than 7400s.

That's not to say that some experimental signs were not spliced in, such as the 83 one I mentioned earlier, which was in the 1976 style on a pre-1972 sign.

A random observation: The 41 Chicago-State sign indicates that if the supposedly funded reinstatement of part of that route ends at that point, that would not be unprecedented. Not that I remember 41 ending there.

[pudgym29]

While rooting about in the basement here at the domicile (looking for components and cables to reconnect the now 11-year-old Windows® 98 computer), I found this: A CTA bus side roller curtain.

It was probably obtained for me by my Uncle Willy, who was an operator at Kedzie garage. So I am deducing it is a Kedzie garage roll.

I will guess that this is from the late 1970s. What I found intriguing, and which may not display well on these photographs, was the mylar panels spliced [with transparent tape] into the fabric roll. "21 CERMAK" is mylar.

This is most likely CTA's first use of Helvetica font on its bus signage [the downtown routes - some which continue to this day]. Also notice the intermediate font displayed on "82 KIMBALL-HOMAN".

Would our forum historians like to prognosticate specifically when this roller curtain became effective?

Edited August 17, 2014 by pudgym29

[cta5658]

Does anyone have any pics of 103rd Garage Routes Roll Sign?

[Guest]

Does anyone have any pics of 103rd Garage Routes Roll Sign?

Im looking for an old North ave bus garage roll sign from any era. preferably the 70s.

[Scionic]

Sorry for the necropost - but where do you guys get these rollsigns from? I've emailed the CTA on a number of occasions about obtaining stuff from inside trains, but I never really get the intended result. For instance - I emailed last year right before the Purple Line went back to running around the Loop in the opposite direction from the Brown Line. Since the in-car system maps were now obsolete, I wondered if it was possible to get one of those maps. They sent me the paper CTA map that you can pick up at any station. Requests for rollsigns generally go ignored. Any suggestions?

[Busjack]

Sorry for the necropost - but where do you guys get these rollsigns from? I've emailed the CTA on a number of occasions about obtaining stuff from inside trains, but I never really get the intended result. For instance - I emailed last year right before the Purple Line went back to running around the Loop in the opposite direction from the Brown Line. Since the in-car system maps were now obsolete, I wondered if it was possible to get one of those maps. They sent me the paper CTA map that you can pick up at any station. Requests for rollsigns generally go ignored. Any suggestions?

I can only say that the one 5750 displayed is of a vintage that was sold off by the CTA in 1976. I had success the first time I tried in 1976, but the second time was a flop. One would assume that they did about the same thing when the New Looks or more recently, the Old Flyers went to junk, but since those signs were used for about 13-19 years instead of the 3 years indicated for the prior set, they probably would have been all dirty and torn up by then.

Hence, it is unlikely that the CTA kept essentially junk, except to decorate its offices. I believe I saw one in some of the news footage of the union leaders going somewhere or the other. If you want to buy something like that now, it is probably eBay or some hobby shop. However, I'm not giving up my 69 Garage side roller.

________________________________________

Speaking of necroposts, I just came across PudgyM's one with the picture of, undoubtedly correct, Kedzie roller. However, that roller essentially was from a 1300 series New Look from 1972-1976. The 120s were pasted in when those routes started, 1975, according to Chicago Transit and Railfan. Similarly, 157 Ohio Union Station because 157 Streeterville, and 149 Michigan State Wacker became 149 Stateliner about that time.* In 1976, all buses would have received the all Helvetica signs. Conversely, before 1972, the route numbers generally were not on the side signs (the only exceptions that I remember being 2A Hyde Park Express and 5A Jeffery Express).

You should also note that Pudgy's has both the 120s, and the 158s which preceded them. The two would not have coexisted on a new sign after 1976.

*A link to a picture of the type of bus at issue between 1972 and 1976 on busdrawings.com was previously posted here. I apologize to whomever posted that link for my being too lazy to acknowledge it properly.

[RIPTA42]

I've bought CTA bus rollsigns at the Kane County Railroadiana show. You can also try IRM.