Pace stiumulus package

[Busjack]

I will continue to contend that if these characters think they are going to get oodles and oodles of money just because Barack is the home son, they are mistaken. With the budget he proposed and the backlash that is starting to form, combined with the Blago/Burris fiasco, pols might not "trust" Chicago and the State of Illinois to give too much until they can prove they won't improperly use it. I am just not so sure this is green pastures.

At least the Pace front page indicates how they are going to spend the money:

Once the funding is received, Pace will purchase the following:

* 162 Paratransit vehicles

* 58 Thirty-foot fixed route buses

* 44 vans for the Vanpool Incentive Program

* Additional vehicles including service trucks and vans for operational supervision

Not clear whether that is in addition to what's in the budget (i.e. since the budget said 37 buses, whether this means 58 or 95). The latter would meet their unconstrained goal, and probably mean the end of the Orion Is and maybe even the Nova Classics. Even 58 would take a big bite out of the Orion Is (supposedly 70 left according to that budget).

As far as the budget goes, Pace was saying in it that it didn't get new paratransit vehicles in 5 years, but having seen up to 5251 with the latest decals (wrenches all around the body portion), must have just received about 120 shortly after the budget was published.

[artthouwill]

At least the Pace front page indicates how they are going to spend the money:

Not clear whether that is in addition to what's in the budget (i.e. since the budget said 37 buses, whether this means 58 or 95). The latter would meet their unconstrained goal, and probably mean the end of the Orion Is and maybe even the Nova Classics. Even 58 would take a big bite out of the Orion Is (supposedly 70 left according to that budget).

As far as the budget goes, Pace was saying in it that it didn't get new paratransit vehicles in 5 years, but having seen up to 5251 with the latest decals (wrenches all around the body portion), must have just received about 120 shortly after the budget was published.

Will Pace ever buy 40ft buses again? Time is expiring on those Orions and very soon the NABIs. There are too many heavy routes to let the standard size buses go without replacements.

[Busjack]

Will Pace ever buy 40ft buses again? Time is expiring on those Orions and very soon the NABIs. There are too many heavy routes to let the standard size buses go without replacements.

Don't know, but doesn't look like it for the Orions.

The earliest NABIs would be due for replacement is 2011.

I wouldn't be surprised if this results in Orions being directly replaced in NS and feeder routes, and NABIs (at least the 6600s) getting displaced from Joliet. What they would do about NW's Orions, I'm not sure, but it is possible that 82 Orion VIs are enough for heavy routes there, and stuff like 209, 234, and routes shared with NS (210, 422, 423) get ElDorados.

Not sure about what Waukegan needs, as it has about 7 40 foot Orions.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Academy was told to use ElDorados on 326, 616, 696, and 699.

Again, just speculating.

[Guest]

Don't know, but doesn't look like it for the Orions.

The earliest NABIs would be due for replacement is 2011.

I wouldn't be surprised if this results in Orions being directly replaced in NS and feeder routes, and NABIs (at least the 6600s) getting displaced from Joliet. What they would do about NW's Orions, I'm not sure, but it is possible that 82 Orion VIs are enough for heavy routes there, and stuff like 209, 234, and routes shared with NS (210, 422, 423) get ElDorados.

Not sure about what Waukegan needs, as it has about 7 40 foot Orions.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Academy was told to use ElDorados on 326, 616, 696, and 699.

Again, just speculating.

Please!, keep those little ElDorkos away from Academy. We got enough with the NABIs not keeping up.

[Busjack]

Please!, keep those little ElDorkos away from Academy. We got enough with the NABIs not keeping up.

They seem to keep running in North Shore.

And how many passengers, or how full the buses, are on the routes mentioned? (I did leave out 600 and 606).

[Guest metralink]

40's probably for the ART network

Don't know, but doesn't look like it for the Orions.

The earliest NABIs would be due for replacement is 2011.

I wouldn't be surprised if this results in Orions being directly replaced in NS and feeder routes, and NABIs (at least the 6600s) getting displaced from Joliet. What they would do about NW's Orions, I'm not sure, but it is possible that 82 Orion VIs are enough for heavy routes there, and stuff like 209, 234, and routes shared with NS (210, 422, 423) get ElDorados.

Not sure about what Waukegan needs, as it has about 7 40 foot Orions.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Academy was told to use ElDorados on 326, 616, 696, and 699.

Again, just speculating.

[Guest]

They seem to keep running in North Shore.

And how many passengers, or how full the buses, are on the routes mentioned? (I did leave out 600 and 606).

Nabis are not good for the peak rush periods. I tend to leave Rosemont with a very heavy load.

[MVTArider]

Please!, keep those little ElDorkos away from Academy. We got enough with the NABIs not keeping up.

As was mentioned in the Council Minutes Tcmetro posted:

After review of the proposals and discussions with the proposers, the Council amended its specifications and

issued a Request for Best and Final Offers. The evaluation panel rated the Gillig Corporation technical proposal

as “very good†and the ElDorado National technical proposal as “goodâ€. The Gillig proposal rated high in the

areas of side panel material and ease of maintenance and repairs, core radiator materials, durability of

the suspension system, and experience. The Gillig price of $305,449 per vehicle is slightly less than

the ElDorado National price of $305,860.

It sounds like the Gillig LF has better material in it so I wonder then how those "ElDorkos" will be in a few years given the so-so ride of the 29ft Gilligs I have been on.

Also, going off on a tangent, I would like to see Pace with some NF D40LFRs or Gillig BRTs. IMO they would probably be a good fit.

[Busjack]

Since the ctatattler had the link to the CMAP list of stimulus proposals, I decided to check out Pace's and see how it squared with the front page.

Interestingly, under "Pace - Purchase/Replace Fixed Rte Buses" it lists No "pre-revision federal funds" and $29.4 million in "post revision federal funds." However, it also mentions $11.4 million in 09 5307 funds and $17.9 million in 09 TRA funds.

Now, if we assume prior numbers (37 buses in the budget and 58 in the stimulus plan) that does work out to $308,000 a bus, which does sound approximately correct, taking inflation into account.

That would mean that Pace would get its unconstrained budget of 95 in 09.

However, since the accounting is sloppy (because one would assume that the 5307 money was pre-revision money), you can never be sure.

That would also exceed the total number of the base order and options (235 instead of 222), although I am sure ElDorado will take the additional business. There might also be the possibility that Pace would use the 58 for the 30 footers (which must go under contract immediately), and then advertise for some number of 40 footers out of the original $11.4 million budget. But, you never know.

[Busjack]

Pace announced in Moving into the Future two federal appropriations, an alternatives analysis for the J route, and an earmark from Lipinski for a transit center for Toyota Park.

Speaking of the latter, on a policy basis, isn't it definitely pork, and probably public money for a private function?

[Tcmetro]

What is the J Route and where does it go?

[Busjack]

What is the J Route and where does it go?

Somewhere in DuPage County, not clear yet.

And since it is an alternatives analysis, it doesn't go anywhere yet. The DuPage Transit Plan description is here.

[Busjack]

With regard to the state $3 billion capital bill, Pace said in Moving Forward (apparently the new name for Moving into the Future, maybe we have reached the future) says that the state money is on top of the $33 million stimulus money. $45 million off the top goes to Chicago paratransit, $18.6 to suburban paratransit, and $49 million to traditional suburban service. They say it is all for capital, and replacing existing buses, not expanding the fleet.

If all this pans out, those of you who are high floor lovers better get your last rides. Of course, I wonder, despite the "not expanding the fleet" statement, if this funds some part of the RFP for over the road coaches that Pace said was unfunded.

[MetroShadow]

With regard to the state $3 billion capital bill, Pace said in Moving Forward (apparently the new name for Moving into the Future, maybe we have reached the future) says that the state money is on top of the $33 million stimulus money. $45 million off the top goes to Chicago paratransit, $18.6 to suburban paratransit, and $49 million to traditional suburban service. They say it is all for capital, and replacing existing buses, not expanding the fleet.

If all this pans out, those of you who are high floor lovers better get your last rides. Of course, I wonder, despite the "not expanding the fleet" statement, if this funds some part of the RFP for over the road coaches that Pace said was unfunded.

Does the replacing of the buses mean getting more "Eldorkos" or investing elsewhere? Also, the thing that has tripped me up is what exactly does the OTR coaches mean? Investing in transit buses, or getting actual coach buses (like the 6900's)? Then again, the stimulus would free up the monies to get 40-foot buses should the budget allow for it. I wouldn't think that they go back to NABI for any orders, but not too many 40-foot bus vendors out there anyway.

Edit: I have a bad habit answering my own questions

[Busjack]

Does the replacing of the buses mean getting more "Eldorkos" or investing elsewhere?

Pace announced that the stimulus money was being used for 58 ElDorados. The capital bill money (and as you note, the existing 2009 budget) is no longer so clear. The original ElDorado contract was for up to 222 buses, although that could be amended. Existing buses and the 58 order would take them up to 198.

Again, this is strictly conjecture, but I figure that at some point, Pace goes to Gillig for 40 foot Advantages, since the ElDorados can't meet the needs now covered by all the Orion Is and Classics, and the 1999 NABIs will be due for replacement soon. This conjecture is based on the further inference that Pace is about as teed off with NABI as CTA and pace2322 are (we haven't heard from him lately). However, there probably will be an RFP, which, if Pace's pattern holds up, will be filled by the lowest bidder.

[Busjack]

On the topic of stimulus, I glanced at an ABC News report last night on what happens when ElDorado gets more orders (web link).

[MetroShadow]

I was just thinking that if they do invest in the 30-footers, they do have larger sizes, in both of the EZ_Rider series (35') or the Axcess series (35 or 40 footers). I love the Gillig's since DeKalb invests in them alot, but I think the market goes further than the New Flyer's and NABI's available...

[Busjack]

There was a report on WGN Radio News at 1 p.m. that Mark Kirk is apparently getting into a dispute with Pace that it doesn't intend to use the stimulus funds for hybrid buses, while Rocky Donahue gave the usual Pace response (also documented in several months of minutes) that basically a 30 foot hybrid bus doesn't pay, a 30 foot diesel bus uses less fuel than a 40 foot hybrid, and the only open contract Pace has within the time constraints of the stimulus bill is for the 30 footers.

I don't know if Kirk has put the monkey wrench into the Pace logo, but it sort of sounded like Pace hasn't received the money yet. If that's the case, you have to wonder how long the Orion Is will hold out.

BTW, it appears from the Finance Committee minutes that Pace redirected the budget for the 38 30 footers into the OTR proposal (which has been set back a couple of months).

[Guest]

There was a report on WGN Radio News at 1 p.m. that Mark Kirk is apparently getting into a dispute with Pace that it doesn't intend to use the stimulus funds for hybrid buses, while Rocky Donahue gave the usual Pace response (also documented in several months of minutes) that basically a 30 foot hybrid bus doesn't pay, a 30 foot diesel bus uses less fuel than a 40 foot hybrid, and the only open contract Pace has within the time constraints of the stimulus bill is for the 30 footers.

I don't know if Kirk has put the monkey wrench into the Pace logo, but it sort of sounded like Pace hasn't received the money yet. If that's the case, you have to wonder how long the Orion Is will hold out.

BTW, it appears from the Finance Committee minutes that Pace redirected the budget for the 38 30 footers into the OTR proposal (which has been set back a couple of months).

I heard it too this afternoon. Pace also says its commited to buying only 30ft buses from now on.

[Busjack]

I heard it too this afternoon. Pace also says its commited to buying only 30ft buses from now on.

I thought you were going to comment more on Academy being stuck with either junks or ElDorados.

[Guest]

I thought you were going to comment more on Academy being stuck with either junks or ElDorados.

I could if you want me to!

[trainman8119]

I have heard the reports on radio/tv today also. It continues to amuse me how the pols

keep spending the money these agencies don't have that they don't provide for things they

can't afford. Rocky's comments may or may not be true...but it doesn't make sense to buy

something just because it is "fashionable" or "politically correct" for the time. Hopefully,

Pace will stick to their guns and follow their plan.

I will say, however, that Pace's commitment to strictly 30 footers is foolish. They do have

a number of routes that would support use of 30's, but I just can't envision a 30 footer

being able to survive on a 352, 307, 250 or a 223. Seeing sardines on a 606 in rush hour

is enough to keep me in a car.

[Guest]

I have heard the reports on radio/tv today also. It continues to amuse me how the pols

keep spending the money these agencies don't have that they don't provide for things they

can't afford. Rocky's comments may or may not be true...but it doesn't make sense to buy

something just because it is "fashionable" or "politically correct" for the time. Hopefully,

Pace will stick to their guns and follow their plan.

I will say, however, that Pace's commitment to strictly 30 footers is foolish. They do have

a number of routes that would support use of 30's, but I just can't envision a 30 footer

being able to survive on a 352, 307, 250 or a 223. Seeing sardines on a 606 in rush hour

is enough to keep me in a car.

Youre absolutely right. How does Pace justify the decision to purchase only 30ft buses when there are still a number of routes that would not be suitable for them, in my case the #606.

[Busjack]

Youre absolutely right. How does Pace justify the decision to purchase only 30ft buses when there are still a number of routes that would not be suitable for them, in my case the #606.

I guess what wasn't said was "for this procurement."

Obviously, Pace isn't totally going for 30 footers, or it wouldn't have put out the RFP for 45 foot OTR coaches.

I sort of have the feeling that with the 58 (if Pace actually gets them) 30 footers, that will be about the end of them.

[artthouwill]

I guess what wasn't said was "for this procurement."

Obviously, Pace isn't totally going for 30 footers, or it wouldn't have put out the RFP for 45 foot OTR coaches.

I sort of have the feeling that with the 58 (if Pace actually gets them) 30 footers, that will be about the end of them.

Not including the order for 58, how many Eldorado's does Pace have?

Pace still has 2 years to start ordering 40Ft buses, they can'tjust rely on 30ft buses. Of course if noone on the Pace board rides the buses (even with a bus stop right in front of Pace headquarters), anything is possible.