West towns in the late 70's/early 80's

[BusHunter]

I was looking through some of Paul Fortini's pictures on Flickr and came across a couple of pictures of the former West Towns garage. Here's another one. I've always been curious about this place. I never saw this garage in person and always wondered was it an open air garage or in a building. I remember the construction of the new Dominick's at Ridgeland/Lake around 1987.(where this is) It's also pretty cool seeing the West towns 800's, some I did see and ride out of Forest Glen (when they were loaned there) in the early 80's as a child. I always used to see these on the #41. I believe these are TDH-5301's which have the real small vintage style tailights, like the CTA #100's. I thought Fg might have had a few #100's in the early 80's, but I must have mistook them for this. Every reference material I come across say those were retired in 1975. One of these buses would've been great for a historical piece. Too bad one wasn't kept. Anyway those are some great pictures and thank you for sharing them with us!!

[Busjack]

My impression was that there was a building,* but an inadequate one, as you could see buses parked outside against the L/CNW embankment (sort of like picture 1). The only times I was by there was in 1976-1977, to track down the albinos and then the pumpkin buses.

Now, if you are trying to tax my brain to remember the old West Town buses parked there in pictures apparently taken after that, you won't have any success.

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*From historical sources, a trolley barn, although Bill V. says that there were both a car and bus barn there.

[BusHunter]

My impression was that there was a building,* but an inadequate one, as you could see buses parked outside against the L/CNW embankment (sort of like picture 1). The only times I was by there was in 1976-1977, to track down the albinos and then the pumpkin buses.

_______

*From historical sources, a trolley barn, although Bill V. says that there were both a car and bus barn there.

I guess this would be the garage building? They would have to have a building for maintainance and of course for the employees, possibly in the footprint of the current Dominick's. Looks to me like the place slowly outgrew it's capacity. I might have vaguely heard there was a fire there, but I don't know if that's true.

[Busjack]

I guess this would be the garage building? They would have to have a building for maintainance and of course for the employees, possibly in the footprint of the current Dominick's. Looks to me like the place slowly outgrew it's capacity. I might have vaguely heard there was a fire there, but I don't know if that's true.

That might ring a bell.

Lind's book has under the 1101-1423 series that a fire in the C&WT barn on Lake Street destroyed 25 cars on Dec. 2, 1936, so CSL loaned them 10 of this series. Apparently fires consuming street cars in barns, but not the barns themselves, which had firewalls and the like, were quite common (Lind reports them at Archer and Clark/Devon barns).

[Paul Fortini]

Thanks, and I'm glad you like my photos. I shot them with an old 110mm instamatic camera. Back in the day, a few buddies of mine lived in the Oak Park/Cicero area and I stumbled upon the WTBC garage by accident.

West Towns did have an indoor garage, but as others have said, it was inadequate for all the buses. I believe it may have been used for heavy repairs. They stored a lot of buses on a lot just to the east of the building, and also along the 'L'/CNW. I have a book from CERA on the West Towns Railway and in the chapter on bus operations, it says that WTBC purchased a section of North Boulevard for the storage of buses.

[Paul Fortini]

Busjack,

What's interesting is that the bus #827 http://gallery.bustalk.info/displayimage.php?album=81&pos=5 doesn't have a "M" (Municipal) license plate like the CTA and Pace buses do. And if you look closely, you'll see under the "Real" cigarette ad, you'll see a label stating that WTBC is the owner of the bus.

[Busjack]

Busjack,

What's interesting is that the bus #827 http://gallery.busta...?album=81&pos=5 doesn't have a "M" (Municipal) license plate like the CTA and Pace buses do. And if you look closely, you'll see under the "Real" cigarette ad, you'll see a label stating that WTBC is the owner of the bus.

In the time frame I noted (around 1976), just about all the West Towns buses I saw had license plates starting with B for bus.

I assume that all were privately owned, until such time as the RTA took over the private companies (West Towns, South Suburban Safeway, and Suburban Transit System*) about in 1981. The private operators, though, seemed to want to show solidarity with the RTA by painting their buses in RTA colors, although it was noted that the CTA put an RTA colored stripe on one of its single unit L cars until someone at the CTA decided that they did not believe in that, although green RTA decals were put on CTA buses starting around 1976 (mostly on the rocker panels; some on the Chicago Transit Authority decal under the windshield).

The Albinos were owned by the CTA, and the only buses technically owned by the RTA were the 8000s and 8200s. Supposedly, the Nortran 400s were owned by Nortran until Pace took them over about 1990 (and maybe even after that), but the Nortran takeover was accomplished because by then Pace owned the rest of the buses they were operating.

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*In the latter two cases, the newer buses were owned by CSSMTD or Oak Lawn, respectively.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Busjack

[trainman8119]

In addition to West Towns having BM plates, I remember distinctly that buses

at United Motor Coach (predecessor to NORTRAN predecessor to Pace NW) had the

BM plates (more than likely meaning Bus Municipal).

[BusHunter]

That might ring a bell.

Lind's book has under the 1101-1423 series that a fire in the C&WT barn on Lake Street destroyed 25 cars on Dec. 2, 1936, so CSL loaned them 10 of this series. Apparently fires consuming street cars in barns, but not the barns themselves, which had firewalls and the like, were quite common (Lind reports them at Archer and Clark/Devon barns).

On one of the pictures I was looking at yesterday (I wish I could find it)it appeared the bricks on the east wall of the open area at West towns had been torn out at some time. Like that building pre-dated the lot. So that could mean 1 of 2 things. There were firewalls there that were torn out or an existing structure. I do also notice on some of the pictures posted of the lot, there are pieces of structure (like torn out I-beams) which would suggest a building at one time. However I don't see a smoking gun on whether in fact there were firewalls there or structures.

[Busjack]

However I don't see a smoking gun on whether in fact there were firewalls there or structures.

The two are not mutually exclusive, in that in all structures, there generally were firewalls (c.f. my previous mention of Archer and Devon, which were structures). As far as I know, the only example of firewalls in an open lot was at North and Cicero.

[BusHunter]

The two are not mutually exclusive, in that in all structures, there generally were firewalls (c.f. my previous mention of Archer and Devon, which were structures). As far as I know, the only example of firewalls in an open lot was at North and Cicero.

The only firewalls I've ever seen were the north and cicero type. I didn't know there were indoor ones, unless you are referring to brick wall seperations in each bay similar to how Archer garage is laid out. They are different in comparison to say Kedzie garage which is more open.

[Busjack]

The only firewalls I've ever seen were the north and cicero type. I didn't know there were indoor ones, unless you are referring to brick wall seperations in each bay similar to how Archer garage is laid out. They are different in comparison to say Kedzie garage which is more open.

Yep.

The original Kedzie barn had bays (as pictured in Lind's book, page 356), the same as the other barns built at the time. Obviously, CTA wanted to replace barns like Kedzie and 69th because buses couldn't maneuver in them.

Going back to Lind, the situation at Devon was that they had to close fire doors to save half of the cars stored there, but lost the other 90 (page 33).

[BusHunter]

Actually if you look at the building to the east on Google Maps Streetview (just punch in Lake and Harvey and it will take you there) as it stands today, it does show it once had a structure beside it. It appears as if at one time there was no Harvey st. (the street at the light) south of Lake. In conclusion I would say there was a small building there and possibly at one time before the fire could have been a complete building or set of buildings with no lot.

[buslist]

Busjack,

What's interesting is that the bus #827 http://gallery.bustalk.info/displayimage.php?album=81&pos=5 doesn't have a "M" (Municipal) license plate like the CTA and Pace buses do. And if you look closely, you'll see under the "Real" cigarette ad, you'll see a label stating that WTBC is the owner of the bus.

.

At the time privately owned (West Towns in this case) carried BM plates which were for Bus Municipal. They were restricted to operation to the cities/towns that the owners were authorized to operate in (no long distance charters). This affected some of our bus fantrips in those days

[andrethebusman]

In addition to West Towns having BM plates, I remember distinctly that buses

at United Motor Coach (predecessor to NORTRAN predecessor to Pace NW) had the

BM plates (more than likely meaning Bus Municipal).

BM did stand for "Bus Municipal" - i.e. buses used in transit service not owned by a governmental agency. Currently (2014) only one entity still uses BM's - St Louis's Bi-State on Illinois-assigned buses, since Bi-state is a Missouri entity, not an Illinois one, and Missouri government-owned vehicles do not carry ANY license plates, they had to come up with something for the Illinois-assigned ones, and BM is what they came up with!

[andrethebusman]

Actually if you look at the building to the east on Google Maps Streetview (just punch in Lake and Harvey and it will take you there) as it stands today, it does show it once had a structure beside it. It appears as if at one time there was no Harvey st. (the street at the light) south of Lake. In conclusion I would say there was a small building there and possibly at one time before the fire could have been a complete building or set of buildings with no lot.

Harvey once was a normal street between Lake and North Blvd. West Towns had buildings on both the north and south sides. South of the street was the old carbarn, north of it was the bus garage from the 1930's or so. It collapsed under the weight of snow in early 1979, damaging some buses. Tiger Lilly (890) was the most seriously damaged, and became Tiger Lilly when it was repaired. After the building was torn down, they still parked buses on what had been the floor of the barn until the whole operation moved out to 34th Ave/Lake St. The street was moved east when the store was built, and now occupies the site of the garage. The older building east of the relocated street was not West Towns connected.

[BusHunter]

Harvey once was a normal street between Lake and North Blvd. West Towns had buildings on both the north and south sides. South of the street was the old carbarn, north of it was the bus garage from the 1930's or so. It collapsed under the weight of snow in early 1979, damaging some buses. Tiger Lilly (890) was the most seriously damaged, and became Tiger Lilly when it was repaired. After the building was torn down, they still parked buses on what had been the floor of the barn until the whole operation moved out to 34th Ave/Lake St. The street was moved east when the store was built, and now occupies the site of the garage. The older building east of the relocated street was not West Towns connected.

Yeah, I should have been more clear on that. The building to the east of Harvey shows stains on the brick where support beams connected to it meaning it was the east wall to something, in which you just said was the garage. Interesting. Whenever I go over by Ridgeland Green line and look at the building to the north on the east side of the street with the big long roof, I can't help but wonder if somehow that was once a part of the West towns complex. Either that or it has something to do with Oak Park. There are alot of parks and recreation in that area and it's also close to the high school up the street.