Bus garage refurbishment

[Busjack]

The more i was thinking about it doesn't make any sense.

If your spending 185 million to rehab the buses.

Why do you need 205 million to rehab the garages.

I can see building a new one on the southwest side so not wasteing money on fuel.

This is the correct topic, and maybe you should have read it first instead of taking random potshots.

To repeat what was at the top, which several members missed:

"... we have to use extra staff to make up for the inadequate equipment that can neither support more modern vehicles nor accommodate the space needed for the increasing number of 60-foot buses we're adding to the fleet..."

Also, it was frequently mentioned in this thread that certain garages do not have lifts that can handle 60 foot buses. The budget says "Two thirds of the hoists used to lift buses at the CTA's seven bus garages require immediate replacement (77 of 115 hoists). Additionally, the CTA does not have a sufficient number of hoists that can be used for the longer articulated buses, which are becoming a larger percentage of the CTA's bus fleet."

I can throw in that 77th is approximately 105 years old. The following provides a veiled reference to similarly aged Archer, although the horse cars were gone by 1907: "Six of the CTA’s maintenance buildings are over 100 years old and have not received substantial rehabilitation. The CTA has been forced to rely heavily on these outdated facilities, recently closing a bus garage that was built to store horse-drawn trolley operations at the turn of the century,"

And one building on the southwest side isn't going to take care of "the longer articulated buses."

[mkohut]

I was looking at it from the cost point of view.If your rebuilding the 40 footers.

Then the redoing of the garage should be for 60 footers.

While i don't know the cost of a new garage.Your burning a lot of fuel

For a example you have a Fullerton bus at Harlem and Grand going to the Forest Glen Garage.

[Busjack]

I was looking at it from the cost point of view.If your rebuilding the 40 footers.

Then the redoing of the garage should be for 60 footers.

While i don't know the cost of a new garage.Your burning a lot of fuel

For a example you have a Fullerton bus at Harlem and Grand going to the Forest Glen Garage.

Pace says that building a new Northwest Garage would be $60 million, and that would be about 1/2 the capacity of a CTA garage (most of which have a rated capacity of 250 buses, but may be too small with the existing number of artics). Not to mention that CTA would have to purchase more expensive land for a garage (there is a big vacant lot in front of the Pace one).

And Harlem and Grand is not that far from either Central and Elston [FG] or Pulaski and Erie [C]. Someone could make an argument about deadheading from 36th and Kedzie to 79th and Wentworth (77), but that doesn't bother CTA, which didn't propose replacing Archer "horsebarn." Maybe the fake stink about garage trips being "in service" has something to do with it.

The main issue, frequently hashed out here, is where one is going to put the estimated 200 more articulated buses, especially if Western and Ashland need them?

And I'm not going to deny that I previously said that some of the replacement garages were not built in the most advantageous places, but that certainly is water over the dam.

[artthouwill]

I was looking at it from the cost point of view.If your rebuilding the 40 footers.

Then the redoing of the garage should be for 60 footers.

While i don't know the cost of a new garage.Your burning a lot of fuel

For a example you have a Fullerton bus at Harlem and Grand going to the Forest Glen Garage.

I believe the Fullerton route operates out of Chicago Ave.

While you are looking at a cost view, there is a time issue. Building one garage could take a year or two as you need to buy land, raze any building that is on it, make sure the area is zoned properly, then build the facility to modern specs. There are seven CTA garages with the oldest being 77th, along with NP, and FG, with 2 of those being the largest in the system. The new buses are arriving now in addition to the NF artics that are already here, so getting new hoists is an immediate priority, especially for South Shops. With the 4 other garages (103rd, 74th, Chicago being relatively modern, and Kedzie having been rebuilt being somewhat modern) there is no need to replace them, but making 74th artic friendly would put it in a position to operate the 9 and 49 if and when those corridors begin to operate BRT style.

I suppose if funds become available, the city could repurchase the land vacated by Dominicks and store buses there if it ever decided to rebuild 77th on site.

[Busjack]

...

I suppose if funds become available, the city could repurchase the land vacated by Dominicks and store buses there if it ever decided to rebuild 77th on site.

When I went by there a couple of weeks ago, there were off price clothing outlets in that building, although the Sav-A-Lot was gone. One included Forman Mills, listed at 122 W. 79th St.

However, there has never been an issue about land in the 77th-South Shops complex. A budget a couple of years ago had a proposal for a new garage and a new park and ride to serve the 79th Red Line station. As usual, nothing came of that.

If nothing else:

• I saw that there were Jersey barriers across the Vincennes entrance to the garage. Does that indicate that that barn is no longer in use and could be demolished?
• If nothing else, the above implies that there is land where about 170 pieces of junk are parked that could be cleared and used.

[mkohut]

A couple of Fullerton Buses operate out of Forest Glen during rush hour.

You can put artics for Western at North Park. It would make sense only a mile away from Western.

If the city reality wanted to buy the land .They would use TIF Funds.

[Busjack]

A couple of Fullerton Buses operate out of Forest Glen during rush hour.

You can put artics for Western at North Park. It would make sense only a mile away from Western.

If the city reality wanted to buy the land where Dominicks use to be .They would use TIF Funds.

As I noted above, your last point is moot. And you didn't answer the Ashland one. Maybe they could put them at Limits. :P

[mkohut]

As I noted above, your last point is moot. And you didn't answer the Ashland one. Maybe they could put them at Limits.

Without knowing how much space is available at the 74th,79th,or 103 i don't know the answer.

You have to keep in mind Ashland uses about 60 buses during rush hour.

[Sam92]

Without knowing how much space is available at the 74th,79th,or 103 i don't know the answer.

You have to keep in mind Ashland uses about 60 buses during rush hour.

Well off hand 77th has room for another 200 if they got rid of the 250 bus restriction. With the 48 artics that 103rd has taking up the space of 72 40 footers plus the 158 Flyers and the 17 Optimas, 103rd has the 242 spaces occupied already.

[Busjack]

Well off hand 77th has room for another 200 if they got rid of the 250 bus restriction. With the 48 artics that 103rd has taking up the space of 72 40 footers plus the 158 Flyers and the 17 Optimas, 103rd has the 242 spaces occupied already.

But that at least gives them some margin, as opposed to Kedzie having some parked in the employee parking lot.

[mkohut]

Back in the 80's and 90's The CTA own close to 2300 buses. This problem didn't happen.

[Busjack]

Back in the 80's and 90's The CTA own close to 2300 buses. This problem didn't happen.

Back in the 80s, CTA also had Limits and 52 garages, Lawndale as a backup, and didn't mind idling buses outside overnight.

So, what's your point?

[mkohut]

They sold Prime Real Estate.

Without thinking about there future needs.

[Busjack]

They sold Prime Real Estate.

Without thinking about there future needs.

The only possible "prime real estate" was Limits. At the time, they said that they were going to build a replacement garage near Diversey and Elston, but then decided that they didn't need it. That was about when the fleet went from the about 2300 to 2000.

There were promises for redevelopment of North and Cicero, but it basically took giving that land away as part of the Limits deal to get the Cub Foods shopping center.

They just sold off 52nd and Cottage a couple of years ago, even though that garage closed around 1983.

Apparently there is plenty of vacant land in Englewood, but they don't need a second bus garage across from Derrick Rose's ancestral home.

You are just at the point of talking in circles, not being able to extricate yourself from your original nitpick at the budget.

[mkohut]

Read your post.

There were promises for redevelopment of North and Cicero, but it basically took giving that land away as part of the Limits deal to get the Cub Foods shopping center.

You have to admit this was a bad deal.

The next question is how much is the Archer Garage worth

[Busjack]

Read your post.

There were promises for redevelopment of North and Cicero, but it basically took giving that land away as part of the Limits deal to get the Cub Foods shopping center.

You have to admit this was a bad deal.

The next question is how much is the Archer Garage worth

Either someone put in a bid or didn't (since it was advertised twice).

It is not in a neighborhood suitable for a replacement barn.

And in the cases where either Kass or you say it "was a bad deal," the buyer is responsible for environmental remediation, if nothing else, cleaning up 100 years of dripping lubricants. The buyer of Archer is also responsible for that. Why don't you tell us what that costs?

[mkohut]

Here the deal

Who fault is it that the CTA has old Bus Garages?

Also,are they up to code?

Would you want to work on a bus if you don't know how good the vent system is?

Obvious they don't have the money to replace all of then.

There should be a plan over time to replace then.

[Busjack]

Here the deal

Who fault is it that the CTA has old Bus Garages?

Also,are they up to code?

Would you want to work on a bus if you don't know how good the vent system is?

Obvious they don't have the money to replace all of then. [emphasis added]

There should be a plan over time to replace then.

There was, then they said they didn't have the money.

Why don't you volunteer to pay a $6 fare per unlinked trip? Do you put extra quarters into the farebox?

That's the real deal...passengers are unwilling to pay the cost of operating the system PERIOD.

[mkohut]

There was, then they said they didn't have the money.

Why don't you volunteer to pay a $6 fare per unlinked trip? Do you put extra quarters into the farebox?

That's the real deal...passengers are unwilling to pay the cost of operating the system PERIOD.

Since you didn't answer the question of Are they up to code.

This is why you need buildings up to code.

As a reminder according to Chicago-l.org

On the morning of August 3, 1979, an extra-alarm fire consumed the wooden inspection shop in the 61st Yard, which was known as the White House.

Thankfully no lives were lost.

[jajuan]

Since you didn't answer the question of Are they up to code.

This is why you need buildings up to code.

As a reminder according to Chicago-l.org

On the morning of August 3, 1979, an extra-alarm fire consumed the wooden inspection shop in the 61st Yard, which was known as the White House.

Thankfully no lives were lost.

Both of you can go back and forth over if the CTA was short sighted in selling off old garages no longer in use for bus storage or if the current ones are in code but the fact remains that they don't have the money to build totally new ones as pointed out by others, Busjack included, and it's probably a better deal for them to get the current ones up to spec to accommodating the buses of today and near future as well as lifting that ridiculous restriction that a garage such as 77th only hold no more than 250 buses when it has the capacity of holding at least 400. Bill V.'s site gives 77th capacity at 470. (It still wasn't made entirely clear if capacity is only in regard to standard 40 foot sizes but we all still get the point as far as how efficiently CTA is using current bus storage space.)

[mkohut]

Both of you can go back and forth over if the CTA was short sighted in selling off old garages no longer in use for bus storage or if the current ones are in code but the fact remains that they don't have the money to build totally new ones as pointed out by others, Busjack included, and it's probably a better deal for them to get the current ones up to spec to accommodating the buses of today and near future as well as lifting that ridiculous restriction that a garage such as 77th only hold no more than 250 buses when it has the capacity of holding at least 400. Bill V.'s site gives 77th capacity at 470. (It still wasn't made entirely clear if capacity is only in regard to standard 40 foot sizes but we all still get the point as far as how efficiently CTA is using current bus storage space.)

If they are going to fix do it right.That includes Electric system,Vent system,and add a sprinkler system.

Look whats going on the Brown Line platforms.

[jajuan]

If they are going to fix do it right.That includes Electric system,Vent system,and add a sprinkler system.

Look whats going on the Brown Line platforms.

And how could you be so sure that those types of things aren't in place? Have you had the pleasure of being on the inside of a CTA bus garage that none of us knows about? Unless you have you're arguing in circles and pulling at strings to have things to cry foul over since as far as I know it's mainly been forum members who are current or past bus operators who have been inside one of the garages.

[mkohut]

And how could you be so sure that those types of things aren't in place? Have you had the pleasure of being on the inside of a CTA bus garage that none of us knows about? Unless you have you're arguing in circles and pulling at strings to have things to cry foul over since as far as I know it's mainly been forum members who are current or past bus operators who have been inside one of the garages.

The standard of buildings being build were different when these were build compare to now.

To me safety would be the most important issue.

[Busjack]

If they are going to fix do it right.That includes Electric system,Vent system,and add a sprinkler system.

Look whats going on the Brown Line platforms.

New garage doesn't assure that these things are done right. There were all sorts of news reports about leaking ventilators at 103rd, when new.

You brought up 61 street L shops. That was empty when it burned. You somehow forgot that Wilson shops burned and it was also empty.

If you want to be a fire or OSHA inspector, apply for those jobs, instead of ineffectively foaming on some transit board.

[Busjack]

Even now, 77th is not assigning artics on the weekend (so far) so these buses are typically only going to be used during the week. I don't know if 77th is going to use that many artics, ( I don't see them using 35 artics, without the #6 route) especially after the Ryan project is over. I see some of those heading to NP after the Ryan project is over.

Probably depends on the garage refurbishment project. Once you get past routes 3,4,79, and 87, the routes that seem to meet the criteria for artics are 9 and 49, between whatever remains of the 3 for 4 rationale, the buses being received starting now supposedly to replace Novas, and what if anything comes from the Western Corridor "project." Similarly, some Chicago routes (such as 66) and FG routes (such as 77) seem to qualify, but for the garage equipment problems.

BTW, there is a solicitation for roof, window, and masonry repairs for 77th garage, so I guess the refurbishment program doesn't mean a new 77th garage.