New Flyer MiDi

[MVTArider]

This was already mentioned in a previous thread, however I thought a new topic would be more organized.

NFI has officially introduced the MiDi:

http://www.newflyer.com/index/midi

[Busjack]

This was already mentioned in a previous thread, however I thought a new topic would be more organized.

NFI has officially introduced the MiDi:

http://www.newflyer.com/index/midi

I wonder, from the description, whether New Flyer is just building another Brit's Opus. It is one thing if it is only engineered by Alexander Dennis but fabricated here, as opposed to the Opus being constructed from a knock down kit--resulting in something that got criticized here. The literature implies the first.

The other question is how it stacks up vs an ElDorado EZ Rider pricewise, since the ElDo is a 12 year bus, but otherwise the specs (other than the 8' width) seem about the same.

[sw4400]

Hasn't New Flyer already done this???

• D35LF
• D35LFR
• DE35LF
• DE35LFR

These models have been available in the past(I believe the Restyled® still are). Other than the 30' variation, this is nothing new and kind of a waste of funding when New Flyer could've just rolled out a D30LFR and and DE30LFR model on the current Restyled® model.

[Busjack]

Hasn't New Flyer already done this???

• D35LF
• D35LFR
• DE35LF
• DE35LFR

These models have been available in the past(I believe the Restyled® still are). Other than the 30' variation, this is nothing new and kind of a waste of funding when New Flyer could've just rolled out a D30LFR and and DE30LFR model on the current Restyled® model.

They have had 30 and 35 foot low floor buses. The restyled page mentions those lengths.

New Flyer's justification for this (as reported here and elsewhere) was "With the escalating costs of fuel and maintenance, there are many of our transit customers' routes that do not require a full-sized, heavy-duty bus with a 12-year design life."

I had also mentioned the 96 inch width in connection with the doomed CTA 170s routes.

But, clearly they are competing with ElDorado National, which offers 12 year buses of similar lengths. Based on what Pace paid for its, it would seem like New Flyer would have to get to around $300K a bus to be competitive on a price basis.

[sw4400]

They have had 30 and 35 foot low floor buses. The restyled page mentions those lengths.

New Flyer's justification for this (as reported here and elsewhere) was "With the escalating costs of fuel and maintenance, there are many of our transit customers' routes that do not require a full-sized, heavy-duty bus with a 12-year design life."

I had also mentioned the 96 inch width in connection with the doomed CTA 170s routes.

But, clearly they are competing with ElDorado National, which offers 12 year buses of similar lengths. Based on what Pace paid for its, it would seem like New Flyer would have to get to around $300K a bus to be competitive on a price basis.

The only bus company around here that these buses would make sense using for would be PACE. CTA is getting away from the Optima Opus which are 30' and 3" longer than the MIDI's are. I don't see the CTA ordering MIDI's at any point in the future since standard 40' New Flyers have been used on the UIC routes and Evanston routes.

[Busjack]

The only bus company around here that these buses would make sense using for would be PACE. ...

Not Pace either, based on what I said above.

[sw4400]

The info on the New Flyer site about the MIDI doesn't mention the cost. I know a standard New Flyer D40LFR runs around 500-550K. Maybe the MIDI does run around 300-350K?

[Busjack]

The info on the New Flyer site about the MIDI doesn't mention the cost. I know a standard New Flyer D40LFR runs around 500-550K. Maybe the MIDI does run around 300-350K?

Like I said above, it would have to get to the bottom of that range to be price competitive.

[jajuan]

Yeah noting the 96 inch width that Busjack mentioned and looking at some of the specs myself and given in part CTA will be dumping the 170s because U of C doesn't want to pay the extra CTA was fishing for to renew the contract, I would agree New Flyer would be almost a decade too late for CTA's purposes. If this makes it to other TAs though outside of the Chicago area, I would be curious to see if New Flyer has actually built this bus on a better chassis than that of the Optima Opus. That would be the other question to answer in addition to the price competition one that Busjack points out because New Flyer is correct in the presentation that there are TAs that don't need a full length 8-1/2 ft wide standard bus with the reason being some combination involving population and width of the streets of that TA's surrounding community.

[MVTArider]

According to a poster on CPTDB, pricewise the MiDi is expected to cost $250-$300K per unit.

[sw4400]

According to a poster on CPTDB, pricewise the MiDi is expected to cost $250-$300K per unit.

So if the MIDI's stay in the market when PACE needs more 30' or 35' buses, they might be an option to compete with ElDorado National if that 250-300K/bus price tag is accurate.

[Busjack]

So if the MIDI's stay in the market when PACE needs more 30' or 35' buses, they might be an option to compete with ElDorado National if that 250-300K/bus price tag is accurate.

Might be, except there isn't any current need, and if Pace again sends out a spec for a 12 year bus, this doesn't meet it.

[MVTArider]

IMO the most likely way MiDis would appear in the Chicago area in the near future would be if Mid-America or Free Enterprise were to buy some for their contract operations. (600 West, Northwestern, Bank shuttle, etc.) UIC could be a possible candidate as well.

[Busjack]

New Flyer announced that it was turning MiDi production back to Alexander-Dennis, which has a new facility in Nappanee, Indiana.

200 buses over a couple of years isn't much of a business.

[sw4400]

On 5/25/2017 at 1:49 PM, Busjack said:

New Flyer announced that it was turning MiDi production back to Alexander-Dennis, which has a new facility in Nappanee, Indiana.

200 buses over a couple of years isn't much of a business.

I didn't really think New Flyer would get much business out of the MIDI. I don't really think there is much need in the transit bus market for 30' buses. I wonder if New Flyer will come up with a 2nd model to go along with the Xcelsior, as that's the only model they have now in all sizes.

[BusHunter]

Probably its not profitable for them. They are the biggest manufacturer of buses and therefore can make more on a standard bus. If you think of their customer base, they'll probably be selling to small agencies with not alot of sales. Even a bigger customer in the small bus market like Pace only ordered 200 buses from eldorado. It would seem the smaller companies like them are more tailored to the small buses but the Axess is a smart way to expand what that company offers. The big tuna, NF, is probably after the killer orders of 500-1,000 buses. Why sacrifice production of a big fry with a small one? It would seem their future concern would be at the clean air market as thats where some of the major competitors are interested and it seems to be where the market is headed.

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Probably its not profitable for them.

I wonder how seriously one takes NF's statements that they were turning over the joint venture because AD was able to assume production, but I agree that it couldn't have been profitable, and also doubt NF's statement made at the time it started production that its customers were demanding a mid bus, when, with this type of production numbers and NF now citing shuttle operators, they were not. For instance CTA was not clamoring to replace the 500s, even though the MiDis met that spec (including being 96" wide).

NF reports indicate about 2600 transit bus and coach deliveries a year; 100 of them being Midis is squat.

[BusHunter]

Yeah 100 buses is probably not worth having a line setup for it. That line could help work on the 2000 other 40 foot buses. If it was a smaller company it might even have to forgo a contract because it doesn't have the space to build the bus. NF has so much money though they would probably just open another plant like someone buys a loaf of bread. Opening new factories and hiring workers also cuts into their profit margin.  It simply doesn't make sense for them to mess with 100 buses, so they won't.

[Busjack]

Looks like NF got back into that business. It acquired ARBOC Specialty Vehicles, which is mostly a cutaway bus assembler, but also makes 29' and 34' buses.

[SlickFlair_859]

New Flyer took over AD so all MiDis are being built by them.

And there are smaller systems that use them (SEPTA and KRAPF here in Philly for starters). The Restyle is no longer offered as the Xcelsior is the only other thing offered by them.