Ventra - Feedback and Updates

[jajuan]

That may sound good for an explanation of why people are being overcharged, but the question is why is that happening? When customers used a transit card/pass in the past when they boarded and they used it again within about 10-12 minutes on the same route, they would be denied service or the farebox would reject the card. This is called a passback. Why then do these Ventra cards not have that? The night i was overcharged, I was given two stop notices before I got a go notice, so your explanation is valid. My card went from $4.75 to 25 cents in a space of two rides, but four swipes. But then the same explanation was proved invalid when I rode Pace that same trip hoping not to be charged $6 for three rides. The ventra card had 25 cents right, but I had to swipe four times to ride Pace. If your explanation was valid i should have been denied service but I got the go signal and was on my way. The card still has 25 cents on it to this day. That's why it's better to use passes with no card balance. Like yesterday I had to swipe 3 times on the #8, but it's a pass and it doesn't matter. Ventra is only good as a pass, but I'm only using that because there is no other choice.

For one thing, point to where I said the multiple taps explained ALL negative and/or disappearing balances sir? I said from the beginning it possibly explained SOME of those effected balances. The only point of my post yesterday is that the article backs up my original point that the multiple taps were part of the negative/disappearing balance problem for again SOME riders because of internal glitches in Ventra's system. Apparently Hilkevitch got from them that because old fare collecting infrastructure is still in place with the new, they're for right now hypothesizing that possibly old software is conflicting with new might be part of the root of the internal computer glitches that had some folks tapping multiple times and thus finding they inadvertently dwindled their balances or sent them into the negative because the system was registering collected fares even though the reader screen said differently and SOME of the rest of reported issues that popped like the being charged a whole new fare at the same exact instant as a transfer was registered on what was a transfer ride.

[BusHunter]

That's easy. I quoted it, but you never said some or all just that it was happening. So I take that as all or most. I'm just stating what I observed, I never said whether you were right or wrong, just working out your theory of events. My theory is that it is more than just that that is happening.

@owine: I observed this on the bus, strangely enough this has never happened on the rail system. So what is unique about the rail system that this is not occurring?

[Busjack]

... I observed this on the bus, strangely enough this has never happened on the rail system. So what is unique about the rail system that this is not occurring?

I'm not going to answer for him, but the Hilkevitch article mentioned lines at the turnstiles.

"There has been a massive line going through the turnstiles at Clark and Lake the past couple days," commuter Scott Lewis said in an email to Getting Around. "When I got to the front, I discovered why: It's very hard to get the card to work. A CTA employee often has to help, and they often have trouble as well."

Also, a possible difference is that communications with a bus rely on a cell phone link, while a more fixed means of communications (such as the fiber optic system or satellite dishes) could be used with the rapid transit stations.

[owine]

That's easy. I quoted it, but you never said some or all just that it was happening. So I take that as all or most. I'm just stating what I observed, I never said whether you were right or wrong, just working out your theory of events. My theory is that it is more than just that that is happening.

@owine: I observed this on the bus, strangely enough this has never happened on the rail system. So what is unique about the rail system that this is not occurring?

I had a passback fare deducted at a rail station. I tapped, was given the Go sign, went through and had someone else tap my card again. The first ride came off my 30-day pass. The second deducted $2.25 from my transit value (which actually pushed it into the negative).

[jajuan]

That's easy. I quoted it, but you never said some or all just that it was happening. So I take that as all or most. I'm just stating what I observed, I never said whether you were right or wrong, just working out your theory of events. My theory is that it is more than just that that is happening.

@owine: I observed this on the bus, strangely enough this has never happened on the rail system. So what is unique about the rail system that this is not occurring?

Actually I did but I'm not going to keep saying it word for word just as I don't expect you to keep repeating yourself on your side of things word for word as it gets rhetorically cumbersome and unnecessary for us to follow each other. We're adult enough to ask each other for clarification on a point or offer it up as necessary so no harm no foul.

[BusHunter]

Looks like my contact was right on the brinks truck I just passed one picking up money at Logan Square. Goodbye CTA armored trucks.

[brownliner]

 

Yes but what about auxiliary entrances? And I fear the logistics of relying on the customer assistant for that could be a nightmare. I'd like to require as little involvement from the CA's as possible.

My suggestion: first rider taps and enters as normal. Second rider taps, the screen says something to the effect of "this card has been used recently, tap again to accept the additional fare charge". And the turnstile/gate disengages and charges upon second tap only.

 

With a turnstile, you simply don't let the card be charged again, until the turnstile has turned. The chicago card did that; there's no reason ventra couldn't. Can't manage the 'reduced fare' option without intervention, but it will get the normal case just fine. If you're traveling with someone, send them through the turnstile first, then go yourself. The works for regular turnstiles, and for the restricted ones at auxiliary entrances.

[owine]

   

With a turnstile, you simply don't let the card be charged again, until the turnstile has turned. The chicago card did that; there's no reason ventra couldn't. Can't manage the 'reduced fare' option without intervention, but it will get the normal case just fine. If you're traveling with someone, send them through the turnstile first, then go yourself. The works for regular turnstiles, and for the restricted ones at auxiliary entrances.

Begs the question of how the Ventra readers are interfacing with the turnstile. Is it two way communication (i.e. can the turnstile tell the reader when its turned)? Is it just one way with the reader unlocking the turnstile but the turnstile handles the rest?

[Tcmetro]

I moved it:

• Are the GoTo cards proprietary or supposedly open, and do they use RFID?
• The

  last time Northstar was mentioned, it was using magnetic stripe cards.

  The Metro pages indicate that those are still accepted on the bus (reference to stored value cards), but don't say on the train.

The reasons I ask is that the card may be analogous to the Chicago Card rather than the Ventra system.

- Proprietory, but when I was in Chicago last week, the Ventra TVM's were very similar (software and hardware wise) to those here in Minneapolis. IIRC, Los Angeles TVM's are basically the same as well.

- Northstar uses magnetic strip cards if you buy a ticket with cash from a TVM; however, the magnetic strips are never swiped. POP is by checking the time stamped on the ticket, or with cell phones that have a RFID card reader embedded in them. We don't have the disposable smart cards that are present in Chicago. The magnetic strip (stored value and 31-day) passes are not valid on Northstar. Bus/LRT fares are completely separate from Northstar.

- We have an odd situation here in Minneapolis. We are still offering the magnetic strip cards and GoTo smart cards. Additionally we haven't phased out magnetic strip transfers. There is talk of an entire fare restructure, and a new open smart card system (similar to Ventra); however, it's all quite preliminary at this point.

[Busjack]

- Proprietory, but when I was in Chicago last week, the Ventra TVM's were very similar (software and hardware wise) to those here in Minneapolis. IIRC, Los Angeles TVM's are basically the same as well.

,,,,There is talk of an entire fare restructure, and a new open smart card system (similar to Ventra); however, it's all quite preliminary at this point.

Thanks. It was as I thought, meaning that art's use of the illustration was only of how to tap, not that Minneapolis had figured out an open fare system for commuter rail. Since the machines are all Cubic,they probably are similar. The difference between card systems may be that whoever didn't tell TCM that they weren't making chips for GoTo Cards, which appears to be the stated justification for scrapping Chicago Cards now.

Your saying that mag stripe tickets aren't scanned on Northstar, but just visually read, seems similar to the Metra Electric, in that the ticket vending machines are still there, but the tickets are not put through a turnstile reader (like they once were).

[Amtrak41]

http://www.suntimes.com/23460991-761/transit-union-postpone-ventra-rollout-until-kinks-worked-out.html

[Busjack]

http://www.suntimes.com/23460991-761/transit-union-postpone-ventra-rollout-until-kinks-worked-out.html

More substance there than on the story just on the WGN News,* which did have a lot of footage of R buses at the Garfield station.

At least there, Brian Steele was quoted as saying that they were working on the problems, while it appears that Tammy Chase went totally over the cliff in the S-T.

___________

*Update: The video is actually on the Tribune site.

[Chicagolooper]

Ex-ChicagoPlus Card user here who received the Ventra Card and successfully activated it. I consider myself a 'well-educated user" of the system and have initially liked it. However, I have also been reading about the double billings and finally it happened to me. I was boarding the other day at Madison and Wabash Elevated station and for 15 seconds I fooled around with the card and no go sign. So I tried the next lane to it and it worked. Then I checked my account the next day and there was the double billing - handled as a pass-back. For some reason, I remember reading somewhere where the pass-back feature of the ChicagoPlus card would not be in Ventra, but here we have it, but in the most unexpected way. grrrr.

I want to register my opinion with those here that the CTA must fix this and do it in a way that is understandable to folks. I viewed the film the tattler had about how to hold the card and get it read - reminds me of the joke in making sure you hold your mouth in a certain way to get things to work.

The really bad part of this is I called the customer service number for Ventra to get my credit of $2.25 and they took my name and number to call me back. I am not going to miss the $2.25 if I never see it again, but there are those out there who this would have an effect on and it sure should be a lot easier than it is to get a credit on this system. Especially if the readers are not working properly. (Or should I say the customers are not holding their cards properly.)

I was in San Francisco at the end of September and used their Clipper Card. It was very nice and works somewhat like Ventra is supposed to except that it is limited to transit. I was able to order one in advance and it saved me from having to wait in a line (like O'Hare has) to get a fare card to ride into the city.

[Amtrak41]

If you cheat them out of $2.25, they'd arrest you, so I have no qualms about turning them upside side and shaking them from their ankles for $2.25 to fall out of their pockets.

Rahm will be crying all the way to the bank on the dissatisfaction over this fiasco.

[Rippler]

If you cheat them out of $2.25, they'd arrest you, so I have no qualms about turning them upside side and shaking them from their ankles for $2.25 to fall out of their pockets.

I'd have to agree. It's the principle of it.

And here it is November 1st and I still don't have my Ventra card that was supposed to arrive within 7-10 business days of September 4th. I don't see how they can not move the deadlines ahead at this point, I'm sure I'm not the only Chicago Card Plus user who hasn't received their new card yet.

[Busjack]

I'd have to agree. It's the principle of it.

And here it is November 1st and I still don't have my Ventra card that was supposed to arrive within 7-10 business days of September 4th. I don't see how they can not move the deadlines ahead at this point, I'm sure I'm not the only Chicago Card Plus user who hasn't received their new card yet.

Did you get the call from the "independent contractor?" (Sun-Times recent reference) If not, I assume you are lost somewhere in the system, but the only real question is whether you have a CCP balance to transfer; otherwise there isn't a reason not to buy a card.

You might want to read Seth's comment on today's CTA Tattler, if that sways you one way or the other.

[BusHunter]

Looks like the union wants the CTA to work out the kinks with ventra according to the redeye. CTA so far is refusing that request. I don't know what they are going to do once the transit cards are gone. That's when they are going to have some problems. These machines out here are still taking 3 attempts to pay. Each attempt seems to charge the card with a ride (transit card riders only) There is definitely something wrong with the programming here.

[BusHunter]

Looks like the union wants the CTA to work out the kinks with ventra according to the redeye. CTA so far is refusing that request. I don't know what they are going to do once the transit cards are gone. That's when they are going to have some problems. These machines out here are still taking 3 attempts to pay. Each attempt seems to charge the card with a ride (transit card riders only) There is definitely something wrong with the programming here.

[Rippler]

Did you get the call from the "independent contractor?" (Sun-Times recent reference) If not, I assume you are lost somewhere in the system, but the only real question is whether you have a CCP balance to transfer; otherwise there isn't a reason not to buy a card.

You might want to read Seth's comment on today's CTA Tattler, if that sways you one way or the other.

I did not get any call about it yet from the new calls set up. When I called Ventra the other week, they didn't show my name as having been issued one, so at least someone else doesn't have my card. They simply said cards are scheduled to be mailed this week (which I hear did go out on Monday), and on November 5th. They could not however tell me if my name was on any list as scheduled to be issued a card.

And yes, I do have a balance to transfer which I won't use up before the November 15th deadline. I'm not a daily rider but I loved the convenience of the CCP card and refilling it automatically when it got low without me having to do a thing or keep tabs on the balance.

I'm not looking forward to using the new card though after reading more about it. Using the CCP card was almost an instant beep and "enter" when tapping it to the front of the turnstyle. Now it appears even when it's working correctly, it will take holding the card there in place for a few seconds until it's acknowledged by the system. I'm just glad I don't travel during rush hour anymore for those lines.

[sw4400]

What I see too often is impatient riders who don't know how to use the Ventra system that are overcharging themselves. Too often it's a flash press "STOP"... flash press "STOP".... flash press "STOP". After they press and keep it by the reader for a few seconds "GO". Those "STOP" notices might've been because the reader didn't fully acknowledge deduction of fare/use of the pass on the card, when in reality it did take the fare/use the pass on the card.

What people need to realize is you have to keep your card by that reader until the machine says "GO". Don't flash and walk away, the reader is most likely not recognizing the card by doing that.

Sometimes, the readers make the "Ding" noise that acknowledge a card has been touched, but takes several seconds to do the second "Ding" with the "GO" screen. If you leave while only the reader is still thinking, more often then not, it'll come back with a "STOP".

To be fair, I use unlimited ride passes on my Ventra Card and no Credit/Debit accounts are linked for auto-loading. But when I use mine, I hold it at the reader until it says "GO"(never had a "STOP" yet), then I take the card away and stand/sit in the bus. I check the account religiously and still have the $5.00 transit credit originally put on there when I bought the card and registered it. It hasn't gone to a negative balance for multi-taps.

[jajuan]

What I see too often is impatient riders who don't know how to use the Ventra system that are overcharging themselves. Too often it's a flash press "STOP"... flash press "STOP".... flash press "STOP". After they press and keep it by the reader for a few seconds "GO". Those "STOP" notices might've been because the reader didn't fully acknowledge deduction of fare/use of the pass on the card, when in reality it did take the fare/use the pass on the card.

What people need to realize is you have to keep your card by that reader until the machine says "GO". Don't flash and walk away, the reader is most likely not recognizing the card by doing that.

Sometimes, the readers make the "Ding" noise that acknowledge a card has been touched, but takes several seconds to do the second "Ding" with the "GO" screen. If you leave while only the reader is still thinking, more often then not, it'll come back with a "STOP".

To be fair, I use unlimited ride passes on my Ventra Card and no Credit/Debit accounts are linked for auto-loading. But when I use mine, I hold it at the reader until it says "GO"(never had a "STOP" yet), then I take the card away and stand/sit in the bus. I check the account religiously and still have the $5.00 transit credit originally put on there when I bought the card and registered it. It hasn't gone to a negative balance for multi-taps.

Others have made similar observations while still acknowledging that yes there are some problems and issues that are not in the customers' control (read the big CC/CCP riders' Ventra card mailing screwup) and got that observation knocked as unjustly blaming the customer and/or questioning their intelligence. You, I and a few others who've run into relatively few problems so far can't be the only runs around for whom the transition has been a smooth ride up to this point. Although most of the time the readers have been relatively quick to give me a "GO" signal, you are correct that each of us as a boarding does need to wait to see that "GO" screen flash just in case you have a slow reader in general or haven't given the reading on the screen time to reset from the previous rider over to your turn to tap.

[jajuan]

Well guys it looks like they put in owine's suggestion. I got on the 22 Clark this morning and the reader blinked a quick "Processing...Please wait" before giving me the "Go" signal. It was still about as fast to board. But it seems maybe some software programmer for Ventura may be scoping out the forum. I think it only appears on slower readers though because the reader on the 9 Ashland bus I boarded went straight to the "Go" screen.

[Amtrak41]

< some software programmer for Ventura may be scoping out the forum >

Programmers don't make the decision to put new or modified code into production.

In I-T, there is an elaborate "Change Manangement" process these days. It is in fact overkill, gunks up the works, and generates so much clerical work, that management is so far removed from the nitty-gritty, that we have disasterous rollouts of Ventra and Obamacare, while problems don't get solved.

[Busjack]

I did not get any call about it yet from the new calls set up. When I called Ventra the other week, they didn't show my name as having been issued one, so at least someone else doesn't have my card. They simply said cards are scheduled to be mailed this week (which I hear did go out on Monday), and on November 5th. They could not however tell me if my name was on any list as scheduled to be issued a card.

And yes, I do have a balance to transfer which I won't use up before the November 15th deadline. ...

If you didn't get a call and didn't get the last round of e-mails, you are somehow going to have to punt before the deadline.

Someone else getting your card wouldn't make any difference, because the card is no good unless it is activated. If your CCP account hasn't been drained, nobody else was able to activate anything linked to it.

[BiT]

In reading all this, it seems that the Class Action lawsuit has been forgotten: lots of gripes but no wanting to join the suit.

I'm attaching the Plaintiff's Motion. Take a quick read over it and see if anyone has experienced similar problems.Plaintiff's Motion for class certification_Pleading.pdf

Like, I'm no lawyer, but all of the stories in the Trib and Sun Times yesterday saying people were being double, triple, quadruple billed for one fare- doesn't this sort of prove the allegations?