95th Red Line Station Rebuild

[BusHunter]

Probably long term there will still be a 98th shop and yard but it won't be what it is now as most of it will get outsourced to 122nd yard. I'm thinking something like what wilson shops and yard used to look like. Probably 95th will remain a spot for short turns though just like a UIC Halsted is now. 

[Busjack]

6 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Probably long term there will still be a 98th shop and yard

Sort of like the Nagle shop and yard on the Blue Line. I wondered how they were going to get the O'Hare extension over that. But I'm also not clear how they are going to get the Red Line to leap over the I-94/I-57 junction at 98th, either. Or maybe it is under and over. Plot your route here.

6 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Probably 95th will remain a spot for short turns though just like a UIC Halsted is now. 

It doesn't pay to predict what's going to happen 10 years down the road (such as whether the extension will be completed by then) but I don't think there are any votes to be bought short turning trains when the purpose of the extension is to move the bulk of the 11,000 average weekday boardings (and I assume 11,000 departures) at 95th further south.

[BusHunter]

Yeah but with all the extra capacity needed they will probably need 98th yard. Probably they'll just branch off the line and at 98th there will be a flyover on the nb side just like the 18th street curve on the orange line. AS the row expands because of the yard they could use a few yard tracks probably on the west side of 98th yard not to impede on the shop or the expwy. But if the shop is really in the way like the foster shop on the blue line they'll just demolish it. But that was a simple shop for 2 cars. 98th is bigger than foster shops. Depends on if they want to take the loss but 98th yard would serve a purpose. Do you want to send all your extras out of 122nd? That doesn't make sense from an operational standpoint.

[Busjack]

25 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Yeah but with all the extra capacity needed they will probably need 98th yard.

With all the swamp land south of 115th, they won't, and the plans do not indicate an intention to keep it.

26 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Do you want to send all your extras out of 122nd? That doesn't make sense from an operational standpoint.

But, by that logic CTA should have kept the Wilson yard and shops, too. Either the new yard setup being proposed is more efficient or it isn't. For instance, I don't see anyone saying that sending the mid day Red Line layovers to Englewood is a permanent fix, but is only being done because the one yard track has been temporarily removed.It isn't a strategy to get the Garfield-Prairie station back up to capacity (although that might not be a bad idea).

The other thing to figure is that the 98th shop will be 66 years old by the time this project is completed (if it is). That's older than most terminal shops, except maybe Forest Park, which probably also gets replaced if that project ever gets rolling.

[Busjack]

On the issue of shops and yards, the EIS* says at 1.2.1:

Provide a modern, efficient rail car storage yard and shop facility to provide storage and cost effective
preventive maintenance for rail cars associated with the RLE Project, rail cars currently stored in the existing 98th Street Yard and Shop, and rail cars supporting additional Red Line expansion of service.

Also:

1.3.6 The Need for a Rail Car Storage Yard and Maintenance Facility
The existing 98th Street Yard does not have capacity to store rail cars required for any substantial
increase in Red Line capacity accompanying future Red Line expansion. Two yard and shop
facilities (Howard Yard at the north end of the Red Line and 98th Street Yard at the south end of
the Red Line) provide storage for vehicles operating along the Red Line. Any Red Line expansion
must consider the capacity of both yards. The Howard Yard and the 98th Street Yard together
supply rail cars for both the northern and southern portion of the Red Line. Both yards are
necessary to efficiently provide trains to meet the current and future operating plans for the
entire Red Line. All northbound trains currently begin their run at 98th Street Yard, and any
expansion of Red Line service would require expanded yard capacity at or near the southern end
of the Red Line. The existing 98th Street Yard is landlocked between interstate ramps for I-94 and
I-57. There is no room to expand the yard without major realignments of the two highways. In
addition, the existing 98th Street Yard is oriented as a terminal yard for service to and north of
the 95th Street Terminal. With the RLE Project expanding service to the south, use of the 98th
Street Yard would lead to inefficient operations. Moving trains into and out of the existing yard,
due to the orientation of the yard, would cause operational inefficiencies and potential capacity
constraints to Red Line service.

However, somewhat supporting you at page 2-9

Yard and Shop
The 120th Street yard and shop, with a capacity of 340 train cars, would be sited on a combination of industrial and vacant land east of the CN/ME tracks and west of the NICTD/CSS & SBRR tracks near 120th Street and Cottage Grove Avenue. ... The existing 98th Street Yard and Shop at the south end of the existing Red Line would be used for other purposes, such as non-revenue equipment repairs once the 120th Street yard and shop is constructed. The yard could also function as a location where trains could be turned back from south to north for irregular or emergency service.

*Looks like you have to click on RLE Draft EIS (Full .pdf).

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

With all the swamp land south of 115th, they won't, and the plans do not indicate an intention to keep it.

But, by that logic CTA should have kept the Wilson yard and shops, too. Either the new yard setup being proposed is more efficient or it isn't. For instance, I don't see anyone saying that sending the mid day Red Line layovers to Englewood is a permanent fix, but is only being done because the one yard track has been temporarily removed.It isn't a strategy to get the Garfield-Prairie station back up to capacity (although that might not be a bad idea).

The other thing to figure is that the 98th shop will be 66 years old by the time this project is completed (if it is). That's older than most terminal shops, except maybe Forest Park, which probably also gets replaced if that project ever gets rolling.

But CTA did keep Wilson shops, and used it up to 65 years after it was no longer needed. Of course it was scaled back in a major way as it used to be multi-level in the 30's to 60's era I believe. Finally it was abandoned, shortly before it burned up.

On your other point, they do send trains to 63rd middle, don't they? What if you had an emergency at 103rd, your whole south yard would be cut off. 98th yard is only 46 years old not 66. The red line trains to Englewood prove my point, in that if they had construction or an emergency they now have an option available to them at 98th. What if they built the extension and something was wrong with it? They are going to look pretty silly if they have no south yard to fall back on. Basically my point is if it's not bothering anything or in anyone's way why take it down so hastily? Surely it could serve a purpose and it probably will according to your quote.

Now as far as if they build the extension, (and they will it just takes time) they will need the extra cars to run the extension so something is going to have to happen as far as the purchase of those cars unless they plan on ordering from a 3rd manufacturer of railcars. Their window is going to be in the mid 2020's, so they'll probably get it by then. If not they will have a problem if they do order cars and don't have a 340 car yard to put them in or open a line with not enough cars.

One other thought, if they plan on opening a 340 car yard and howard is a 300 something car yard what do they plan on having a 600 something red line car capacity. If so you know what that means, virtually either all the #5000's or #7000's will be on that one line.

 

[Busjack]

25 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Now as far as if they build the extension, (and they will it just takes time) they will need the extra cars to run the extension so something is going to have to happen as far as the purchase of those cars unless they plan on ordering from a 3rd manufacturer of railcars.

Again, it is one of two things (given that the original assessment was 84 cars):

• The contract for the 7000s has 2 options for 100 and 90 cars each for "expansion."
• Andre indicated that the 5000s bloat indicates that CTA already has the cars, if it wants to keep the Red Line all 5000s.

25 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

One other thought, if they plan on opening a 340 car yard and howard is a 300 something car yard what do they plan on having a 600 something red line car capacity. If so you know what that means, virtually either all the #5000's or #7000's will be on that one line.

Capacity doesn't mean assignments. 54th Yard has capacity for 108 and has 50 assigned. But even if it is, and I don't know if your math considers the increment of 84, sure the 5000s could be restricted to the Red, as well as Yellow and Purple Lines at Howard Yard, and then they could put the option 7000s on the Green and Pink Lines. Or they could run the Red Line mixed (although not in the same train). Based on the need for 84 cars, I don't think any of these is necessary, but the possibility exists.

[BusHunter]

Probably mixing fleets is a nightmare scenario. If one car set failed and needed to be pushed by the follower which had another set they can't be linked together. This could also happen on the loop L that would make one wonder how these fleets will work out. 

[garmon757]

Keep in mind guys that the northbound platform is temporary closed. All services in and out of 95th will operate on the southbound platform.

[Busjack]

3 minutes ago, garmon757 said:

Keep in mind guys that the northbound platform is temporary closed. All services in and out of 95th will operate on the southbound platform.

Explains why they cut service in half. However, your prior picture indicates that the southbound yard track is out, so it must be a real mess there.

[garmon757]

43 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Explains why they cut service in half. However, your prior picture indicates that the southbound yard track is out, so it must be a real mess there.

Oh man, if only you can come out there and see it. It's quite a mess. 

[garmon757]

On 4/4/2017 at 6:39 PM, chicagopcclcar said:

Second day of the Red line re-route......REPORT.......A mid-day, 98th St. is empty.  All the cars are out on the road.

David Harrison

That fast? Wow, it was about 60 cars this past weekend. 

[garmon757]

Keep in mind that northbound track has been removed inside 95th Station. 

[garmon757]

Current progress so far. 

[BusHunter]

Surprised they raised the tracks in front of 95th station. Didnt they just do that in '13 for the red line/dan ryan closure and rehab? I guess it makes sense if 95th will eventually be demolished  and  95th becomes a superstation similar to a logan square type platform at least as far as its length.

[garmon757]

Let's start digging shall we?

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, garmon757 said:

Let's start digging shall we?

They certainly are digging, but what we supposed was relevant was the second station house and bus bridge, maybe going up on these girders. However, there is the debate how messing with the track is.

[garmon757]

3 minutes ago, Busjack said:

They certainly are digging, but what we supposed was relevant was the second station house and bus bridge, maybe going up on these girders. However, there is the debate how messing with the track is.

Well, it seems like they're doing an excellent job with the track modifications. I don't see how it can impact anything unless they screw up the foundation, but I highly doubt it.

[Busjack]

18 minutes ago, garmon757 said:

Well, it seems like they're doing an excellent job with the track modifications. I don't see how it can impact anything unless they screw up the foundation, but I highly doubt it.

The question is why they are re-laying the track, not whether they are doing a competent job of it (if I wasn't previously clear).

BTW, your original picture had the southbound track out; looks like that's replaced and the northbound track is now out.

[garmon757]

24 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The question is why they are re-laying the track, not whether they are doing a competent job of it (if I wasn't previously clear).

BTW, your original picture had the southbound track out; looks like that's replaced and the northbound track is now out.

https://chitransit.org/topic/3316-95thred-line-station-rendering/?page=4#comment-93899

 

[garmon757]

Current progress underneath. 

[garmon757]

6 hours ago, chicagopcclcar said:

Maybe both berths will have a twenty car capacity. Someone mentioned the Pink line terminal with their arrival berth on the far end and the departure berth towards the main line. But 95th will not have crossovers. With capacity for two road trains, maybe two layups in the PM's, they could use the southern half and both berth as the same time and the next road train departure can use the north berth, this might end trains being stacked waiting to get in to 95th. Of course, passengers would not know where their their car would stop, under the north station are under the south station. No other CTA station would have this capability.

DH

Correct, but a twenty-car berth???

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, garmon757 said:

Correct, but a twenty-car berth???

Would make sense if planning for 2 10 car trains. That would be planning ahead, but also indicates they don't really believe in the extension.

[BusHunter]

22 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Would make sense if planning for 2 10 car trains. That would be planning ahead, but also indicates they don't really believe in the extension.

There would be many issues though on that proposal. You would basically have to rebuild platform extensions into the state street subway and what do you do with Sheridan? While it sounds good, it might be sometime before it actually happens. Though the 20 car estimate is correct as Wilson will be 10 car berths. Maybe they could skip a few stops once they got the heavy stops online, but practically I think the RLE has a better chance of happening, but really they could stand to merge the projects. That might just be too big of a project though.

[rondell]

I know the 95th st terminal construction lasts until the fall.... I made a Special Segment on it on April 7th and it's on YouTube