CTA Stations that need to be added on exisiting operations (no extensions)

[Chi-town Kid]

Much has been said on these boards about bus routes that need to be added. However, I think some train stops are more urgent. Here are some stops that should be added:

Green Line: Western, Damen, Racine, Halsted, possibly Franklin/Wacker, Harrison, 16th/18th, Cermak, 26th, 31st, 59th, and possibly Racine, Harvard, and State on the Englewood branch.

Yellow Line: Oakton, Dodge (possibly Crawford and Asbury)

Red Line: Diversey and Armitage (why not stop here), Division/Clybourn

Brown Line: Division

Orange Line: Possibly California? This station was supposed to be included originally.

The Randolph and Madison stations downtown should become one Washington station, and the Wellington station should be taken out. I also think some Red Line stops north of Sheridan should be taken out to speed up traffic on the Red Line. Better yet, have the Red Line stop at major streets instead of the weird streets it stops at.

Obviously, any station will require lots of money from the CTA and not all the stations can be implemented. But what do you think are the best ones and are there any others that should be added?

[MetroShadow]

There was a proposal in the late 90's to turn State/Randoph/Madison and/or Adams to one superstation, which looked and seemed like a hot mess.

The only one that should be put, and that would make much sense, is Oakton on the yellow line.

As far as your red line proposal, best to revive skip-stopping. Taking out stops is a bad idea.

[RJL6000]

Some of your suggested stops would be unfeasible.

Harrison and 16th/18th on the Green Line, for example: Harrison is located at the former sharp S-curve, which had been recently "straightened" out. But city-owned parking lots would be in the way of what would have been the location of the station house. 16th/18th would entail significant property acquisition and demolition in order to accomodate the station platforms, as the right-of-way barely has enough space for the four tracks that are currently there.

On the Red Line, the only way that Red Line trains would stop at Armitage (in the current track configuration where the middle two tracks descend into the subway south of that point) would have been to send all Red Line trains onto the elevated instead of the subway. This is because the current Armitage station's platforms are located on the outer tracks, where they currently serve Brown Line trains. And Division/Clybourn is located at the exact point where the subway's curve is also located at. And the current side platforms at Diversey would have required Red Line trains to switch tracks both north and south of that station. (Addison was also that way, until a 1990s station rebuilding which put a center island platform between the middle two tracks.)

The stations that you've suggested for the Yellow Line are located at locations where its predecessor, the Niles Center Line, had stations located at. Of those suggestions, the Oakton stop is already in the planning stages (if not yet under construction).

On the other hand, the Green Line never had a stop at Western, but before 1948 had a stop one block east at Oakley. The Damen and Racine stops also closed in 1948 due to low ridership. And until the Green Line rebuilding of 1994-96, there was a stop at Halsted. On the South Side, there used to be stations located at Cermak, 26th and 31st (Cermak closed in 1977, while 26th and 31st closed in 1949). There was no stop at 59th - but there was one a block north at 58th (that station, closed in 1994, still stands, though abandoned). And on the Englewood branch, the three stations mentioned were closed some years ago (Racine in 1994, Harvard in 1992 and State in 1973); of those, Racine still stands today (though boarded and abandoned). The CTA is required to keep the two abandoned South Side stations in an operable condition, due to either federal bucks used in the rehab (58th) or its use by CTA personnel to access a nearby CTA shop/yard facility (Racine).

On the North Side, there was a station at Division on the elevated (closed in 1949, and long removed).

[MetroShadow]

My situation is, I could see the Green Line adding the stops on the branches, but that would already increase the travelling time on those two routes anyway.

[Chi-town Kid]

In response to RJL: Yeah, I know a lot of my stations were in place a long time ago.

As for the Red Line stopping at Armitage and Diversey, yes I know the Red Line runs on the outer tracks. There would have to be a track reconfiguration done to make it feasible.

As for the Green Line stations at Harrison and 18th, I did not realize they would be that difficult to build. I did know that a Red Line station at 16th/18th would be impossible because the grade of the tracks is not completely flat (it goes up to connect to the Dan Ryan brach).

[Busjack]

Green Line: Too many stops that would slow service on a line that has light ridership. One or two west side stops would be justified, such as somewhere around the Randolph Market area (Halsted would be better for transfers, but closer to Morgan would better serve the market). On the south side, the "temporary" bus reroutings to the Red Line during reconstruction became permanent, and an obvious preference has arisen for the Red Line. Any new stations would need to follow land use changes in that corridor, now that the high rise public housing is on the way out. Buswise, I would encourage more riding on the Green Line by having some short turns at 63rd for Ashland, Halsted, King Dr., and Cottage Grove buses from the south, but the results of the lakefront restructruing indicate that the passengers are not in favor of that, apparently supporting the X3 and X4 instead.

Yellow Line: Evanston wants one at Dodge. There are no traffic generators at Crawford or Asbury.

Brown Line: There was talk of a stop at Division, since with the rebuilding at Cabrini Green, that neighborhood is coming back.

Red Line: I agree that the answer is to bring skip stop service back. It is strange that the stations are every 3 blocks rather than 4 blocks apart, and the only explanation I've seen is that is where old Milwaukee Road railroad stations were. However, there definitely is nowhere near the money to relocate them. The Howard rebuild is becoming a big production because they do not want to tunnel into the embankment; instead the plan for the new station to go next to the parking garage is to go up and over, and then back down to the platform.

[Busjack]

Red Line: Diversey and Armitage...

Besides the track alignment problems noted by others, these are adequately served by the Brown Line, and you can transfer at Fullerton for the Red Line.

...and the Wellington station should be taken out.

Better tell the CTA quick, because that station is soon scheduled to be bid as a segment of the Brown Line project, and part of it is taking out a portion of the Illinois Masonic Hospital parking garage.

[Chi-town Kid]

Besides the track alignment problems noted by others, these are adequately served by the Brown Line, and you can transfer at Fullerton for the Red Line.

Better tell the CTA quick, because that station is soon scheduled to be bid as a segment of the Brown Line project, and part of it is taking out a portion of the Illinois Masonic Hospital parking garage.

Obviously, the current service is adequate. I just think having both the Red and the Brown Line stopping every half mile in that area would makes things easier. Besides, Diversey and Belmont are only a two block walk from Wellington (the Masonic hospital is the main reason why the stop is still in existence). Nobody would really be unduly inconvienced.

As for the Green Line, I never said implement all of the stops. I just said some of them might be good to implement.

The Brown Line stop at Division should definately be added, but the one at Division/Clybourn would be VERY HARD to do due to the immense cost of tunneling and drilling into the street.

As for the Yellow, I agree. Dodge and Oakton are the best two places to have stops.

What about an Orange Line stop at California?

[RIPTA42]

Green Line: Too many stops that would slow service on a line that has light ridership...Any new stations would need to follow land use changes in that corridor, now that the high rise public housing is on the way out.

What good is fast service if it doesn't stop anywhere? Instead of letting development dictate where the stations go, do it the old fashioned way - build the stations to invite development.

[RIPTA42]

Obviously, the current service is adequate. I just think having both the Red and the Brown Line stopping every half mile in that area would makes things easier.

Lakeview and Lincoln Park would scream if you took away their de facto "express" service.

Besides, Diversey and Belmont are only a two block walk from Wellington (the Masonic hospital is the main reason why the stop is still in existence). Nobody would really be unduly inconvienced.

Wellington has 2,500 weekday boardings, which isn't insignificant. It's also in a densely populated, affluent area. Closing it won't fly.

The Brown Line stop at Division should definately be added, but the one at Division/Clybourn would be VERY HARD to do due to the immense cost of tunneling and drilling into the street.

How would adding a Brown Line involve tunneling?

[Busjack]

Instead of letting development dictate where the stations go, do it the old fashioned way - build the stations to invite development.

The old fashioned way quit working in about 1925 with the Skokie and Westchester Ls. In 1996, the taxpayers spent maybe $200 million to rehabilitate the Green Line, and while ridership on the west side (Lake) portion has rebounded from when it was closed, the south side has not. According to the April Ridership Report, there are 22,000 boardings per day on the Lake segment, but only 12,600 on the south side portion (adding the South Elevated, East 63rd and Ashland numbers). You have existing stations in areas that were once densely populated but no longer are (such as around Garfield, of which I am familiar). Showing a preference for the Red Line, there were 3800 daily boardings at the Garfield Red Line stop and 1438 at the Garfield Green Line stop (although the Green Line is up while the Red Line is down).

Basically, since you are talking taxpayer money, it would be more efficiently spent on the Red Line extension, if we buy what the Reader was saying.

[Busjack]

How would adding a Brown Line involve tunneling?

With regard to Division/Clybourn, I think he meant the Red Line subway, since the Brown Line is at Division/Franklin.

[Chi-town Kid]

Lakeview and Lincoln Park would scream if you took away their de facto "express" service.

Wellington has 2,500 weekday boardings, which isn't insignificant.  It's also in a densely populated, affluent area.  Closing it won't fly.

How would adding a Brown Line involve tunneling?

I did mean the Red Line, but another poster cleared that up. Sorry about the confusion.

Most of those Wellington boardings are related to the hospital I would assume. Yes people would scream if the stop were taken away which is kind of stupid, there are stops two blocks in each direction! I guess one concern might be that the Belmont station is one of the top five (i think) non-Loop stations in ridership and closing Wellington and its unsignificant number of boardings would overload Belmont. But then again, if the Red Line stopped at Diversey, I think the slack could be picked up!

Also what about people say, at Addison, Sheridan and Clark/Division on the Red Line who want to get to Diversey and Armitage? Yes, they can switch trains, but taking two trains to get one-two miles is kind of stupid, but that's just me. This has happened to me before, so I would know.

[RIPTA42]

The old fashioned way quit working in about 1925 with the Skokie and Westchester Ls.

Maybe, but the Great Depression has since ended.

In 1996, the taxpayers spent maybe $200 million to rehabilitate the Green Line, and while ridership on the west side (Lake) portion has rebounded from when it was closed, the south side has not. According to the April Ridership Report, there are 22,000 boardings per day on the Lake segment, but only 12,600 on the south side portion (adding the South Elevated, East 63rd and Ashland numbers).

Lake also has thirteen stations in 5.9 miles, as opposed to Jackson Park/Englewood's ten stations in 9.7 miles. That's a much greater catchment area.

You have existing stations in areas that were once densely populated but no longer are (such as around Garfield, of which I am familiar). Showing a preference for the Red Line, there were 3800 daily boardings at the Garfield Red Line stop and 1438 at the Garfield Green Line stop (although the Green Line is up while the Red Line is down).

I agree; watching development around existing stations is key. But the area most underserved, by both the Green and the Red Line - is Bronzeville, and with Burnham Park gentrifying and the projects going away, there's lots of potential for the wave to move south.

Basically, since you are talking taxpayer money, it would be more efficiently spent on the Red Line extension, if we buy what the Reader was saying.

The Reader was merely crying racism, which is funny when you consider the demographics along the Green and Blue Lines. For that matter, why would the CTA even have built anything on the Dan Ryan south of Chinatown if they don't want to serve black neighborhoods?

[RIPTA42]

Most of those Wellington boardings are related to the hospital I would assume. Yes people would scream if the stop were taken away which is kind of stupid, there are stops two blocks in each direction! I guess one concern might be that the Belmont station is one of the top five (i think) non-Loop stations in ridership and closing Wellington and its unsignificant number of boardings would overload Belmont. But then again, if the Red Line stopped at Diversey, I think the slack could be picked up!

Belmont is overcrowded, and closing Wellington would send more people to Belmont than to Diversey so they could get the "express." Also, two blocks is a quarter mile, which isn't unreasonable for station spacing in a densely populated area. The State and 59th stations you recommend for the Green Line at the start of this thread would only be two blocks apart.

Also what about people say, at Addison, Sheridan and Clark/Division on the Red Line who want to get to Diversey and Armitage?

They can do the same thing someone in New York does to get from, say, Van Wyck Blvd to 63rd Drive - transfer to the "local" or take the bus.

[Busjack]

While the Reader may have been calling racism, there can't be anything racist about favoring Roseland over Bronzeville. Maybe Roseland vs. the central area.

Given the wealth of transit choices now available in the south side Green Line corridor (the Red Line, and the 1, 3, X3, 4, X4, 29, 8, 9 and X9 buses), I don't see how any more investment in transit will further growth there. In some senses, the Great Depression is continuing there, and problems such as gangs must be resolved and CHA must get its mixed income developments going for there to be any development, population growth, and demand for transit in excess of what they have there. The rebuilding is apparently occuring east of there in Oakland and North Kenwood, and if your argument is that transit brings growth, I would suggest Mike Payne's Gray Line proposal on the IC r.o.w. with infill stations only for the local service. (A far fetched idea: Bring back the Kenwood branch. 63rd east of Woodlawn was redeveloped only after the L was removed.)

Looking at the "per entrance" statistics in the Ridership Report, and the totals for multiple entrance stations, it looks like the only station on Lake under about 1200 is Conservatory, while Indiana, 43rd, King Dr., and Halsted are below 1000.

To Chi-town Kid: My mention about Wellington is that if you think it is unnecessary, now is the time to do something about it to save the taxpayers money; otherwise, it will be a fait accompli in a year, and, like 58th, will have to stay there for its estimated useful life.

[Chi-town Kid]

If they aren't going to make the Red Line stop at Diversey and Armitage, let the Wellington station be. It would be kind of funny if the CTA did what I suggested in five years and had to leave the station sitting there abandoned.

State and 59th are also about 3-4 Blocks apart. The Green Line is at 300 East at this point and the Englewood branch heads west at 5950 South (or just south of 59th). As an historical note, there were at one time State and Wentworth that were two blocks apart in the area. State got eliminated and Wentworth was a low ridership station because there were no major streets around to serve the station. I said State station as a maybe because I don't that is a high ridership area.

The reason why there are so many buses between Roosevelt and 35th is that there are NO RAIL STOPS to speak of. I'm pretty sure the demand exists, but the CTA hasn't not added stops yet.

Also, you couldn't bring back all of the Kenwood Branch as the part that drops to 43rd had been demolished and is in the path of new mixed-income development. A new branch would only go out to Cottage Grove or so, so there's really no point.

This thread has sparked much discussion, which is good.

[Busjack]

The reason why there are so many buses between Roosevelt and 35th is that there are NO RAIL STOPS to speak of. I'm pretty sure the demand exists,  but the CTA hasn't not added stops yet

There is Chinatown-Cermak on the Red Line, and 23rd and 27th on the Metra Electric. The lack of rail stops may (but probably doesn't) explain X3, but bus lines such as the 1 Indiana-Hyde Park are there because they always were, in some form, and were even denser when there was competition and more population (i.e. the Indiana streetcar, 6 Michigan-Garfield bus, as well as the L stopping every couple of blocks). Lake Michigan also narrows the corridor for access from the south. Odds are that the converse is true--the rail stops closed because they didn't have the patronage, although obviously the web didn't exist for CTA to post ridership reports on it in those days. But it is very unlikely that CTA would close successful stops--that would not make any economic sense and certainly would have resulted in political protest.

[Chi-town Kid]

There is Chinatown-Cermak on the Red Line, and 23rd and 27th on the Metra Electric. The lack of rail stops may (but probably doesn't) explain X3, but bus lines such as the 1 Indiana-Hyde Park are there because they always were, in some form, and were even denser when there was competition and more population (i.e. the Indiana streetcar, 6 Michigan-Garfield bus, as well as the L stopping every couple of blocks). Lake Michigan also narrows the corridor for access from the south. Odds are that the converse is true--the rail stops closed because they didn't have the patronage, although obviously the web didn't exist for CTA to post ridership reports on it in those days. But it is very unlikely that CTA would close successful stops--that would not make any economic sense and certainly would have resulted in political protest.

Yes, when the CTA closed the stops they were unsuccessful THEN. But I think a lot of them could be successful NOW. The density in these areas is increasing, and thus I think the CTA implemented the X3 and X4 to partially cover this demand until new stops are built (though the X3 and X4 will survive long after they build the new stops as they serve other areas as well).

Another intriguing question is with new housing about to built along the State Street corridor south of 35th, would it be plausible for the CTA to put more stops along the Red Line. I actually don't think it would work, and it should not be a priority, but what do other people think?

[Busjack]

Won't go on the Red Line (they aren't going to realign the tracks to make room for platforms now that the tracks have been rebuilt), and there are enough stops on that portion of the Green Line. It also depends on your perspective when THEN was (I'm comparing now with the 1970s, when, for instance, you couldn't see the L from Washington Park, because there were apartment buildings around it; a lot of Woodlawn apartment buildings were burned, forcing the people out).

It seems like you don't concur in the view that Rapid Transit should be rapid. The northside Red Line is already slower than the 147 bus.

[Chi-town Kid]

The Red Line has stops a less than a quarter mile apart. All of the plans I suggested and not necessarily advocated all have stations a half mile apart. Most of the time, this is a good distance.

[MetroShadow]

Yes, when the CTA closed the stops they were unsuccessful THEN. But I think a lot of them could be successful NOW. The density in these areas is increasing, and thus I think the CTA implemented the X3 and X4 to partially cover this demand until new stops are built (though the X3 and X4 will survive long after they build the new stops as they serve other areas as well).

Another intriguing question is with new housing about to built along the State Street corridor south of 35th, would it be plausible for the CTA to put more stops along the Red Line. I actually don't think it would work, and it should not be a priority, but what do other people think?

The X3 and X4 were not designed as a stop-gap until new stations were placed. the X3 or 3L was made in 92/93 to serve as a faster commute along King Drive (whereas you couldn't catch a 6 or 14 back then), and that you wouldn't want to walk to the Green Line either (regardless of rehabilitation). The X4 was placed as a compliment for the X3 during the Lake Shore Realignment in 2003. Since you had a lot of service rearranged so that 2, 6, 14, and 26 (also: x28) were (re)designed, you still needed something in-between King and Stony Island. you're still a half-mile off of the Green Line, and at least another mile off the Metra.

If anything, the 3L/X3 and X4 are probably a good, although questionable in terms of speediness, way to get to downtown if you're trying to get there from the southside.

and as for a the dan ryan itself...I'm more worried, time and time again, that we should deal with extending it south. No need to put stations at 43rd, 59th, etc. the stations are fine just the way they are, and its preferred with the spacing since it is a faster way to get from 95th to downtown. If you want to add stops along the ryan, make those people take the 24 and the 29 to get them there.

[trainman8119]

In my younger days, I had sent a letter to the CTA wondering

why certain routes were cut or shortened (in the wake of the

expansion to Jefferson Park from Logan Square in 1970), primarily why routes like Addison and Diversey would be shortened from their

old trips downtown and a route like Milwaukee was still a full

blown route downtown. Their answer, simply......"the public

demand...".

I guess that you can look at this as a way of saying that bus routes supplement the L. The L should be a more express form of transportation. Use the bus for the short stuff. This was

so much more true in the days of the skip stop service, which

today is greatly missed (especially on the north end of the Howard

branch).

[MetroShadow]

I would give to see a revival of the skip-stop right now on the Howard...Sure, the sheridan stop would be an "A" train during rush hours, but will that yield (the concept of skip-stop) less crowded trains?

[trainman8119]

Sure, the sheridan stop would be an "A" train during rush hours, but will that yield (the concept of skip-stop) less crowded trains?

I don't know about less crowded trains, but you have to admit that skip stop would provide a much more streamlined and efficient service.