Busjack Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 On 5/13/2024 at 12:45 PM, Busjack said: It also seems like Wirepoints thought the Gillig was a Proterra. I sent them a message on their comment form, and received an email back that the author changed the article and removed the picture of Rep. Casten with the electric bus. While he was correct that the Pace buses on order are from Proterra, I don't think he stated clearly enough that the current bus is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted May 23 Report Share Posted May 23 New Flyer release that BC Transit is buying 33 BEBs. BC Transit had previously filed an objection in the Proterra bankruptcy based, in part, in build deficiencies in the initial 10 buses. BC Transit subsequently announced "the decision has been made for Phoenix Motors not to assume the BC Transit contracts. This was approved and confirmed by the courts on March 5, meaning there is no contractual obligation between BC Transit and Phoenix. As a result, BC Transit will not receive its first 10 electric buses from Phoenix Motors." BC is also buying 33 from Nova Bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted August 22 Report Share Posted August 22 15 hours ago, The Bus Doctor said: ... Please use caution Pace. Maybe give Gillig a shot. Sounds like they have a contractional obligation. This is scattered all over the place, but the preceding post gets to the heart of the matter As I mentioned under Pace Electric Buses, Phoenix Motorcars bought the Proterra Transit business at a bankruptcy auction. The existing contracts were assigned as a matter of law, but the purchaser had the right to reject any contract that was unfavorable. Apparently there was a negotiation over this, and BC Transit got out of its contract and issued contracts to New Flyer and Nova Bus. Since Nova Bus is leaving the U.S. market, Pace and CTA can't do that, but New Flyer and Gillig are still available. As noted starting here in the 600s topic, CTA's contract was also rejected, but, unlike BC Transit, the CT Board assigned the contract to PhoenixEV, anyway. This is inexplicable because (1) it would have been assigned as a matter of law, and (2) most of the 600s are sidelined. On the Pace side, Pace didn't try to get out of the contract, and must be figuring that waiting PhoenixEV out is quicker than resoliciting from NF and Gillig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bus Doctor Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 8 hours ago, Busjack said: This is scattered all over the place, but the preceding post gets to the heart of the matter As I mentioned under Pace Electric Buses, Phoenix Motorcars bought the Proterra Transit business at a bankruptcy auction. The existing contracts were assigned as a matter of law, but the purchaser had the right to reject any contract that was unfavorable. Apparently there was a negotiation over this, and BC Transit got out of its contract and issued contracts to New Flyer and Nova Bus. Since Nova Bus is leaving the U.S. market, Pace and CTA can't do that, but New Flyer and Gillig are still available. As noted starting here in the 600s topic, CTA's contract was also rejected, but, unlike BC Transit, the CT Board assigned the contract to PhoenixEV, anyway. This is inexplicable because (1) it would have been assigned as a matter of law, and (2) most of the 600s are sidelined. On the Pace side, Pace didn't try to get out of the contract, and must be figuring that waiting PhoenixEV out is quicker than resoliciting from NF and Gillig. So the warranty is null and void as well?? Poor cta got burned by these guys all they can do is shelf the buses now. The first model 600 to 606 they did. I see them running until they break and it's Cest la vie!! Sometimes you just get burned but they should get some legal recourse but I!m not sure they have a case it's moot. I'm kind of surprised at Pace they have a living example of a Gillig electric. It can't suck that bad can it. They trust someone's word over what they have produced. Phoenix /Proterra has not produced. I see Pace has electric paratransits maybe they could run those in light service like in Elgin on the mainline feeders. Something to ponder anyway.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 3 hours ago, The Bus Doctor said: So the warranty is null and void as well?? Nope. As I noted after Ordinance 024-076 was posted, "Phoenix has agreed to assume Proterra’s obligations under the contract, including all service and bond obligations, the pricing of the existing contract, and the other terms and conditions." So, whatever could have been done after the contract was rejected, Phoenix agreed to a contract "including all service ... obligations." Similarly, Melissa Metzger previously said that Pace would not accept the buses unless the warranties were good. I don't expect anyone else on this forum to have my understanding of bankruptcy law, and I didn't understand all of the filings, but as a Bus Doctor, you should have known more than at least implying that there was a preexisting Phoenix Motorcars bus that looked exactly like a Proterra except for the name badge and that the transit authorities would accept buses without warranties, and then make wild conclusions based on those erroneous premises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bus Doctor Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 21 hours ago, Busjack said: Nope. As I noted after Ordinance 024-076 was posted, "Phoenix has agreed to assume Proterra’s obligations under the contract, including all service and bond obligations, the pricing of the existing contract, and the other terms and conditions." So, whatever could have been done after the contract was rejected, Phoenix agreed to a contract "including all service ... obligations." Similarly, Melissa Metzger previously said that Pace would not accept the buses unless the warranties were good. I don't expect anyone else on this forum to have my understanding of bankruptcy law, and I didn't understand all of the filings, but as a Bus Doctor, you should have known more than at least implying that there was a preexisting Phoenix Motorcars bus that looked exactly like a Proterra except for the name badge and that the transit authorities would accept buses without warranties, and then make wild conclusions based on those erroneous premises. Well what I nention is an unforseen circumstance. No way did the customer know that Proterra would go out of business. Alot of regular Joe's would have to go through major legal hurdles to get the same results. But it makes sense to play nice. They are teeing off with agencies with up to million plus dollar budgets, with federal pull that can have an even greater pull. They may have lost the cta. Pace if they want to play ball with them is their call. Maybe instead of seeing the likenesses they need to see what has changed. But starting out a company in the negative with all these defective proterras is not my idea of a fine corporation. I won't be buying their stock... and what you say about my quote doesn't make sense but that's the friendly art of debate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 1 hour ago, The Bus Doctor said: and what you say about my quote doesn't make sense but that's the friendly art of debate... What I said was to the point, while what you said about "What was the Phoenix design before? 20 years in the business has to produce something." and "So the warranty is null and void as well?? Poor cta got burned by these guys all they can do is shelf [should be 'shelve"] the buses now. The first model 600 to 606 they did. I see them running until they break and it's Cest la vie!! Sometimes you just get burned ..." is, as I noted factually incorrect, and your conclusion to just junk the buses now, when they are returning to service is hysteria, unless something like cracks in the shell show up. And it is abundantly clear that you don't have the legal training to make the comment "...but they should get some legal recourse but I!m not sure they have a case it's moot," as I'm sure you don't know the legal definition of moot. On your point in your last post, one of the points made by objectors in the bankruptcy case was that Phoenix Motorcars didn't have the capability to perform the assigned contracts. On that basis, BC Transit and apparently Miami-Dade pulled out. CTA reaffirmed its contract. Time will tell if PhoenixEV can perform. And if CTA does get burned, it won't be the first time. Think NABI, but CTA got legal recourse for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Mac Posted October 5 Report Share Posted October 5 On 8/10/2023 at 2:16 AM, rvwnsd said: Given Proterra has only sold 1,300 buses to 130 agencies, this makes sense. Now that both NFI and Gillig sell electric buses there's no reason for transit systems to buy from an inexperienced bus builder like Proterra. I wonder if ENC will try to buy Proterra, given they do not currently make electric buses. PS: I know Nova also sells electric buses, but their pulling out of the US market makes them moot in the US. CTA should’ve purchased them Nova electric buses when they had the chance or at least CNG buses from nova. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted October 5 Report Share Posted October 5 12 hours ago, Al Mac said: CTA should’ve purchased them Nova electric buses when they had the chance or at least CNG buses from nova. Nova would not have assembled them. I bet that's why CTA never issued the contract and exercised the Proterra options, instead, and explicitly assigned them to PhoenixEV. This isn't "When you wish upon a star" on The Wonderful World of Disney. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewFlyerMCI Posted October 5 Report Share Posted October 5 19 hours ago, Al Mac said: CTA should’ve purchased them Nova electric buses when they had the chance or at least CNG buses from nova. Unless there are developments i've missed (in which case, please let me know), CTA has been waiting for ~3 years for just 6 LFSe+ buses from Nova. CNG buses for a system that doesn't use CNG is also a non-starter. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Mac Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 5 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said: Unless there are developments i've missed (in which case, please let me know), CTA has been waiting for ~3 years for just 6 LFSe+ buses from Nova. CNG buses for a system that doesn't use CNG is also a non-starter. Really now? Why haven’t they received them? It’s 2024 and Nova is going away. They probably would’ve went to C/kedzie garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artthouwill Posted October 6 Report Share Posted October 6 8 hours ago, Al Mac said: Really now? Why haven’t they received them? It’s 2024 and Nova is going away. They probably would’ve went to C/kedzie garage. The original plan was for the 6 electric Novas to go to 103rd garage. They were also supposed to get charging equipment for that garage. Needless to say none of this has come to fruition. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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