Weird destination signs

[strictures]

Whoever programmed the destinations signs for the Novas running on the 155 Devon needs to learn how to spell & pick the correct font.  The font is squeezed horizontally & is difficult to read & then Devon is misspelled as "DEVOH".  I saw three of them this after noon like that.

[Sam92]

11 hours ago, strictures said:

Whoever programmed the destinations signs for the Novas running on the 155 Devon needs to learn how to spell & pick the correct font.  The font is squeezed horizontally & is difficult to read & then Devon is misspelled as "DEVOH".  I saw three of them this after noon like that.

It might be an 'N' but the font is squeezing it into an H. They need to get rid of this "better visibility left sign" crap. Some signs ironically are harder to read cause like you said the font is smaller (#6 came to mind. Mich/Wacker was easier to make out than the small Wacker/Columbus sign). 

[strictures]

35 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

It might be an 'N' but the font is squeezing it into an H. They need to get rid of this "better visibility left sign" crap. Some signs ironically are harder to read cause like you said the font is smaller (#6 came to mind. Mich/Wacker was easier to make out than the small Wacker/Columbus sign). 

No, the font is the same height, but it's now a narrow font, such as the difference between Arial & Arial Narrow.  I'm baffled as to who chose the narrow font. I have a feeling it's a new hire who doesn't know how to properly program the signs.

[monsieurmétro]

Until reading your comments above, I didn't actually notice how the font skews the "N" in "DEVON". Lo and behold, I looked through my camera roll and found this image which clearly shows how the "N" looks more like an "N" if you look closely but is definitely hard to tell. What I don't understand at all about this situation is the fact that there is still about half of the display available that they could use to make the letters take up the standard width. The use of a narrow font in this case is very much a solution looking for a problem given that the narrow font just frees up space that they didn't bother using anyway.

On 1/24/2025 at 5:25 AM, Sam92 said:

Some signs ironically are harder to read cause like you said the font is smaller (#6 came to mind. Mich/Wacker was easier to make out than the small Wacker/Columbus sign).

Readability is definitely important. There is no use making a nice sign if people need binoculars while directly in front of the bus in order to read the signs. However, readability is absolutely not an excuse for signs which are plainly incorrect, use creative and wacky abbreviations that are difficult to decipher, are missing important words whose absence completely changes their meaning, oversimplify the situation, or otherwise introduce major ambiguity.

Examples of the first group (signs that are plainly wrong):

• 147s to Congress Plaza - signs advertise them as "147 to Ida B Wells/Michigan" which is actually the 2nd stop on the northbound route
• [no longer applicable but one that comes to mind] 9 to Clark/Belle Plaine - signs advertised them as "9 to Irving Park" which is not really that close to Clark/Belle Plaine
• General issue of buses that spend a decent amount of time on a route advertising themselves as going to the terminus in the opposite direction to the one they're actually going such as 9 stating to 95th instead of Ravenswood Station, or the 4 Stating 115th instead of Columbus and Randolph.

Second Group:

• "Mich" in the previously mentioned "Mich/Wacker"
• "ILL" in "ILL CENTER" for the 4 (previously) and the 20 (unsure if still used)
• "COTTAGE/60th" that the 2 at least used to use
• "ASH/CLARK" stated in the past for the northbound 50 buses

Third Group:

• The major situation where missing words are a problem is omitting "to" which really blurs the line between which part of the sign text refers to the route name and which part refers to the bus destination

Fourth Group:

• The 36 and the 151 often advertise themselves as going to "DEVON/CLARK" when many/most of them go to the Clark/Arthur Terminal.
• The 152 does a similar thing on its eastern end (most buses continue to Lake Shore/Waveland but all of the eastbound buses going beyond Clark advertise themselves as going "TO LAKE SHORE"

The above examples are in my opinion, definitely things that should be avoided when writing the signs. However, it is possible that these examples are incorrect as far as whether CTA actually uses/has used these examples.

[Sam92]

5 hours ago, monsieurmétro said:

Until reading your comments above, I didn't actually notice how the font skews the "N" in "DEVON". Lo and behold, I looked through my camera roll and found this image which clearly shows how the "N" looks more like an "N" if you look closely but is definitely hard to tell. What I don't understand at all about this situation is the fact that there is still about half of the display available that they could use to make the letters take up the standard width. The use of a narrow font in this case is very much a solution looking for a problem given that the narrow font just frees up space that they didn't bother using anyway.

Readability is definitely important. There is no use making a nice sign if people need binoculars while directly in front of the bus in order to read the signs. However, readability is absolutely not an excuse for signs which are plainly incorrect, use creative and wacky abbreviations that are difficult to decipher, are missing important words whose absence completely changes their meaning, oversimplify the situation, or otherwise introduce major ambiguity.

Examples of the first group (signs that are plainly wrong):

• 147s to Congress Plaza - signs advertise them as "147 to Ida B Wells/Michigan" which is actually the 2nd stop on the northbound route
• [no longer applicable but one that comes to mind] 9 to Clark/Belle Plaine - signs advertised them as "9 to Irving Park" which is not really that close to Clark/Belle Plaine
• General issue of buses that spend a decent amount of time on a route advertising themselves as going to the terminus in the opposite direction to the one they're actually going such as 9 stating to 95th instead of Ravenswood Station, or the 4 Stating 115th instead of Columbus and Randolph.

Second Group:

• "Mich" in the previously mentioned "Mich/Wacker"
• "ILL" in "ILL CENTER" for the 4 (previously) and the 20 (unsure if still used)
• "COTTAGE/60th" that the 2 at least used to use
• "ASH/CLARK" stated in the past for the northbound 50 buses

Third Group:

• The major situation where missing words are a problem is omitting "to" which really blurs the line between which part of the sign text refers to the route name and which part refers to the bus destination

Fourth Group:

• The 36 and the 151 often advertise themselves as going to "DEVON/CLARK" when many/most of them go to the Clark/Arthur Terminal.
• The 152 does a similar thing on its eastern end (most buses continue to Lake Shore/Waveland but all of the eastbound buses going beyond Clark advertise themselves as going "TO LAKE SHORE"

The above examples are in my opinion, definitely things that should be avoided when writing the signs. However, it is possible that these examples are incorrect as far as whether CTA actually uses/has used these examples.

Some of these we can SOMEWHAT justify lol. Devon/Clark vs Arthur is a case of the main street being more memorable. Harlem and Devon is a street a lot of everyone either knows of or can find vs Octavia or Nordica which are relatively minor streets that only people that live in those areas would know so we for the most part give CTA a pass on that note. 9 to Irving Park can again fall under the "not too main know where Belle Plane is" situation plus the main point of the route is serving Ashland which basically used Irving to turn around. 6 could have fully spelled out Michigan/Wacker vs Wacker and Columbus because no one's really going all the way to Columbus moreso the 6 just needs a place to turn back. 147 is accurate. ida B Wells  is the first and last stop (if you've seen Balbo those were pull ins/deadheads). The opposite destination issue is gonna happen here and there if the gps acts up but for the most part the real issue is the left aligned font. Some of the abbreviations you mentioned sound like they were around during the days when signs couldn't display much but I don't ride 50 that much but I would think that got cleared up along with all the other stuff like Dear/Kinzie and other stuff limited by the 15 character limit. 

[Busjack]

To add to @Sam92's post (yes, no one othther than @stricturesknows or cares where Arthur is, nor cares), the manufacturers say that the fonts supplied with the signs are ADA compatible. So, the complaint about supplying condensed fonts should be directed to Hanover.

Signs with the wrong direction are on the Clever Device.

Obsolete readings and the squish to the left are on CTA. CTA is not entirely consistent on the latter, since some are still full width.

Actually, CTA is way more consistent than Pace, which either includes or omits route names, leaves out vowels, uses inconsistent names for the same terminal (i.e. NWTC NORTHWST TC; DAVIS CTA/DAVIS METRA, EASTBOUND/EVANSTON), intermediate stops without "via," and wrong way readings.

 

[artthouwill]

36 minutes ago, Busjack said:

To add to @Sam92's post (yes, no one othther than @stricturesknows or cares where Arthur is, nor cares), the manufacturers say that the fonts supplied with the signs are ADA compatible. So, the complaint about supplying condensed fonts should be directed to Hanover.

Signs with the wrong direction are on the Clever Device.

Obsolete readings and the squish to the left are on CTA. CTA is not entirely consistent on the latter, since some are still full width.

Actually, CTA is way more consistent than Pace, which either includes or omits route names, leaves out vowels, uses inconsistent names for the same terminal (i.e. NWTC NORTHWST TC; DAVIS CTA/DAVIS METRA, EASTBOUND/EVANSTON), intermediate stops without "via," and wrong way readings.

 

I care where Arthur is LOL!

Seriously,  although CTA may be more consistent,  they still have some quirks.  The 20 Madison goes to Millennium Park but the 56 Milwaukee goes to Michigan and Washington  ( the same place).  And what's with the signage with the 34 S Michigan going to 95/ Red Line in both directions.   The announcements inside the bus do indicate that southbound buses are going to 131st/Ellis.  What happened to the Altgeld Gardens destination signs?

As for Pace,  they were trying to implement route names that emphasizes communities rather than streets.  The 303 used to be Madison/19th,  but when combined with the 325 it became 303 Rosemont CTA and 303 Forest Park CTA.  The 208 used to be Golf Rd.  I suppose that at a place like Golf Mill where both eastbound and westbound buses stoo at the same place,  it's easier to differentiate the two, especially for seniors who might be coming from the Niles Free Bus .  It does seem extreme for one bus stop, but at least seniors don't have to ask which way the 208 is going.   The same can be true at Woodfield Mall 

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

...

The 1 got its name because the line was truncated from both Indiana and Hyde Park so that neither made sense to use 

Also when the 120 and the 121 got extended,  they became Oglivie/Streeterville and Union/ Streeterville  respectively  

Well, back to CTA...

1 could have been something like "1 Central Michigan." The (essentially) Bronzeville to 35th Mich doesn't bother me so much, as it isn't redundant.

Streeterville doesn't bother me, thinking back to when 157 was "Ohio" but barely went on Ohio St.. and the destinations are McClurg/Huron or Fairbanks/Chicago.

124 does sort of bother me, although CTA cut "Union-Ogilvie" from its name (now just Navy Pier).

To throw one more out there, I'm not sure why 26 and 71 were not also named Commercial Ave. At least they aren't the now meaningless 27 SOUTH DEERING.

To get back to a point raised by  @monsieurmétro and @Sam92, Devon is justifiable because the buses stop there. Grand-Nordica seems justified by it being 2 blocks short of Harlem. More recently, the  question is what the 82  SB sign says, as the notices said 31st-Pulaski, but the schedule brochure says 31st Komensky (where the turnaround  is).

 

[monsieurmétro]

While I personally prefer the buses to advertise their destination in a manner that is consistent with the name of the stop where they terminate, I definitely agree that using names of larger principal streets to increase recognition is absolutely important to consider. The two primary issues I have outside of that is when the advertised destination is not very close to the actual destination (such as the old northern terminal of the 9) or if there are some buses that terminate at the destination and others that don’t (such as the 151/36 and 152 examples I shared above). For the routes (old) 9 people might not understand that they could take it for certain journeys and so might consider other modes of transport due to their false belief about the bus being less convenient than it actually is. The 151/36 and 152 examples represent much more confusing situations because if someone is trying to go to Clark/Arthur or Lake Shore/Waveland, it is impossible to tell whether the bus serves there. While most buses do serve those locations beyond the stated destination, there are many buses that don’t go beyond the stated destination.

Does anyone know the dimensions and pixel resolution of the signs in use? It would be interesting to experiment with different sign text formats to best balance readability with information density.

[Sam92]

4 hours ago, Busjack said:

Well, back to CTA...

1 could have been something like "1 Central Michigan." The (essentially) Bronzeville to 35th Mich doesn't bother me so much, as it isn't redundant.

Streeterville doesn't bother me, thinking back to when 157 was "Ohio" but barely went on Ohio St.. and the destinations are McClurg/Huron or Fairbanks/Chicago.

124 does sort of bother me, although CTA cut "Union-Ogilvie" from its name (now just Navy Pier).

To throw one more out there, I'm not sure why 26 and 71 were not also named Commercial Ave. At least they aren't the now meaningless 27 SOUTH DEERING.

To get back to a point raised by  @monsieurmétro and @Sam92, Devon is justifiable because the buses stop there. Grand-Nordica seems justified by it being 2 blocks short of Harlem. More recently, the  question is what the 82  SB sign says, as the notices said 31st-Pulaski, but the schedule brochure says 31st Komensky (where the turnaround  is).

 

71 - I agree that Commercial could've worked with it spending the most time of Commercial but there's one minor issue (see 26)

26 - Since the 6 was renamed after the area it serves maybe this is the case, if we're talking streets it does stay on South Shore the longest vs other streets. 

Personally I wouldn't disagree if they were to be named Commercial but I do know when it comes to talking about the far east side, if I were to tell them I live in South shore then they'd recognize it. However if I name streets majority don't know anything east of Stony unless they're from there

[Sam92]

25 minutes ago, monsieurmétro said:

While I personally prefer the buses to advertise their destination in a manner that is consistent with the name of the stop where they terminate, I definitely agree that using names of larger principal streets to increase recognition is absolutely important to consider. The two primary issues I have outside of that is when the advertised destination is not very close to the actual destination (such as the old northern terminal of the 9) or if there are some buses that terminate at the destination and others that don’t (such as the 151/36 and 152 examples I shared above). For the routes (old) 9 people might not understand that they could take it for certain journeys and so might consider other modes of transport due to their false belief about the bus being less convenient than it actually is. The 151/36 and 152 examples represent much more confusing situations because if someone is trying to go to Clark/Arthur or Lake Shore/Waveland, it is impossible to tell whether the bus serves there. While most buses do serve those locations beyond the stated destination, there are many buses that don’t go beyond the stated destination.

Does anyone know the dimensions and pixel resolution of the signs in use? It would be interesting to experiment with different sign text formats to best balance readability with information density.

The old 9 layover was close enough to Irving to justify the sign, the main thing people rode all the way there for was to transfer to 22 so at most Irving Pk/Clark would help highlight that connection. 

152- Since the bus is already on Addison which is a block south of Waveland no need to change that. Also notice the 8 also terminates at Waveland but uses Broadway (6400s used to use Waveland). 

151/36 - Think of it like this.... if the bus is pulling up with a sign that not too many people remember then you'd have people let the bus pass if they're not too confident in it going where they're going while they get on their phones trying to look up where Arthur is.

[monsieurmétro]

24 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

The old 9 layover was close enough to Irving to justify the sign, the main thing people rode all the way there for was to transfer to 22 so at most Irving Pk/Clark would help highlight that connection. 

152- Since the bus is already on Addison which is a block south of Waveland no need to change that. Also notice the 8 also terminates at Waveland but uses Broadway (6400s used to use Waveland). 

151/36 - Think of it like this.... if the bus is pulling up with a sign that not too many people remember then you'd have people let the bus pass if they're not too confident in it going where they're going while they get on their phones trying to look up where Arthur is.

Since the 9 destination signs just said “Irving Park” before, I take that to mean Ashland and Irving Park.

For the 151/36 it could say “to Clark/Arthur via Devon” or “to Clark/Arthur via Devon/Clark” perhaps (this is one of the reasons why I’d like to experiment with these sorts of decision in some format).

 

On another note, it annoys me that the buses don’t remove via clauses that are currently being used once the bus in question has passed the place being referred to the via clause. For example, the 3 buses advertise themselves as going to “Northwestern Memorial Hospital via Michigan and Chicago” even after they’ve passed Michigan and Chicago. This makes it seem that the bus is going to loop around a second time by Michigan and Chicago before reaching the hospital (which isn’t the case).

[Busjack]

16 hours ago, monsieurmétro said:

For the 151/36 it could say “to Clark/Arthur via Devon” or “to Clark/Arthur via Devon/Clark” perhaps (this is one of the reasons why I’d like to experiment with these sorts of decision in some format).

You're talkmg maybe 1/2 block, and the only using at Arthur is the operator's washroom, unless someone is crossing midblock to the police station. While there was sign confusion before whether the destination was Devon-Ash or Devon-Clark, what you propose would be WAY more confusing. There's a limit to how much can be put on a sign before it has to flip repeatadly. Also, until 1974, the headsign was 36 BROADWAY-DEVON.

As I said before, 99.1% of the riders don't know or care where Ashland-Arhur or Clark-Arthur is. And they are not going there.

[Sam92]

14 hours ago, monsieurmétro said:

Since the 9 destination signs just said “Irving Park” before, I take that to mean Ashland and Irving Park.

For the 151/36 it could say “to Clark/Arthur via Devon” or “to Clark/Arthur via Devon/Clark” perhaps (this is one of the reasons why I’d like to experiment with these sorts of decision in some format).

 

On another note, it annoys me that the buses don’t remove via clauses that are currently being used once the bus in question has passed the place being referred to the via clause. For example, the 3 buses advertise themselves as going to “Northwestern Memorial Hospital via Michigan and Chicago” even after they’ve passed Michigan and Chicago. This makes it seem that the bus is going to loop around a second time by Michigan and Chicago before reaching the hospital (which isn’t the case).

On top of @Busjack's point people that are going somewhere new are most likely using Googlemaps which would show them all the info you're asking to cram into a sign or add unnecessary flips for. The people that need to use 9 to connect with 22 pretty much already know, I don't know how you drew the conclusion you did about 3... Its straight to the point. Serves the Hospital downtown via Michigan and Chicago. Looking up directions to 6600 N Clark shows the Arthur Terminal being served and states you can ride to Arthur. 14 and 147 used to only say "express". 145 and 146 both just said "Mich Exp" and people managed just fine with just a paper map. Anybody that needs THAT much assistance probably shouldn't be travelling without a chaperone to be honest.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Sam92 said:

145 and 146 both just said "Mich Exp" and people managed just fine with just a paper map. Anybody that needs THAT much assistance probably shouldn't be travelling without a chaperone to be honest.

If you want to go into 50 or so year old history, most signs had DOWNTOWN as part of the destination, such as 4 COTTAGE DOWNTOWN or 153 WILSON DOWNTOWN. 153s out of North Park (so assumed because they were Flxibles rather than GMCs) just had 153 DOWNTOWN. Clearly Cottage Grove and Wilson were not streets in the Loop, and 4 had a short reading for 4 WABASH-HARRISON. But people survived without a reading for Garland Court (which @monsieurmétro would have demanded if he were around between about 1920 to 1973, as that was the actual terminal). Presumably, this was because otherwise they would have to splice into roll signs whenever a downtown routing changed. Similarly, around 1973 (7400 series buses), when route names became standard on headsigns, downtown was 153 MICHIGAN CONGRESS and northbound 153 MICHIGAN WILSON [over] RAVENSWOOD. Then, as you noted, it eventually became 145 and 146 MICH EXP.

Also, as you implied, today someone can use a trip planner or read the bus stop sign. The main function of the destination sign is to get on the correct bus--not to find the bus to the operator's restroom at the turnabout.

[strictures]

3 hours ago, Sam92 said:

On top of @Busjack's point people that are going somewhere new are most likely using Googlemaps which would show them all the info you're asking to cram into a sign or add unnecessary flips for. The people that need to use 9 to connect with 22 pretty much already know, I don't know how you drew the conclusion you did about 3... Its straight to the point. Serves the Hospital downtown via Michigan and Chicago. Looking up directions to 6600 N Clark shows the Arthur Terminal being served and states you can ride to Arthur. 14 and 147 used to only say "express". 145 and 146 both just said "Mich Exp" and people managed just fine with just a paper map. Anybody that needs THAT much assistance probably shouldn't be travelling without a chaperone to be honest.

originally, none of the express buses that used Lake Shore drive even had numbers.

And I remember when the 76 Diversey & the 152 Addison went all the way downtown, instead of terminating at LAD.

[Busjack]

12 minutes ago, strictures said:

& the 152 Addison went all the way downtown, instead of terminating at LAD.

That was confusing because there were both express and limited, but it made no difference if boarding SB on Michigan.