Bustracker's buses

[busfan4022]

Wrong, you will be suprised at how much attention 77th will get with its bustracker because it has the highest ridership routes in the system, and you will be suprised at how much the southside will use the system.

Yes, but with high ridership routes Bustracker is generally not needed. Only because there are more frequent buses on the route anyway. So it will be basically something to say "OHHHH" and "AHHHH" to, while standing at the bus stop (Unless it is OWL hours, and lowridership routes. Which is really the only time you need bustracker). I know for a fact if bustracker will be put on 79th it wont last long, doing nothing but causing CTA more money.

[Busjack]

It depends whether the main purpose of Bus Tracker is the web portal, or as indicated in the News Brief mentioned on the home page, to finally deal with bus bunching. Trainman and I previously agreed that if the purpose is just the web portal, it is a waste of money to find out that three buses will be coming in 20 minutes. However, if it is actually used to put the buses on a regular headway, it is most needed on routes like 79. The web portal is just an extra, although you probably underestimate the web savvy of people on 79th, where most of our county politicians live, and isn't a decimated area like parts of Grand Boulevard and Englewood.

[nextstopchicago]

Yes, but with high ridership routes Bustracker is generally not needed. Only because there are more frequent buses on the route anyway. So it will be basically something to say "OHHHH" and "AHHHH" to, while standing at the bus stop (Unless it is OWL hours, and lowridership routes. Which is really the only time you need bustracker). I know for a fact if bustracker will be put on 79th it wont last long, doing nothing but causing CTA more money.

This is completely wrong for a couple reasons. One is that once bustracker is installed, there is very little cost to keep it installed, so it will almost certainly remain installed forever.

But more important, there is huge need even on heavy ridership routes. I ride a fairly heavy ridership route, but when I'm pressed for time, I frequently decline and drive, because the bus isn't reliable enough. It will usually come in 10 minutes, almost always come in 20, and only once in 50 times will it take half an hour. But that once is a killer.

With bustracker, if I'm pressed, I can glance at it, see that my bus is coming, and take the bus, rather than having to drive 50 times because of the rare chance that it'll be so late that I'll miss my meeting.

Bustracker will be a habit for half the city in 5 years, and it will expand bus use significantly.

[busfan4022]

But more important, there is huge need even on heavy ridership routes. I ride a fairly heavy ridership route, but when I'm pressed for time, I frequently decline and drive, because the bus isn't reliable enough. It will usually come in 10 minutes, almost always come in 20, and only once in 50 times will it take half an hour. But that once is a killer.

Ultimately, looking as Bustracker won't make the bus come any faster. I do believe that there are still schedules you can look at to decide when you should be at the bus stop, and so should the bus.

[nextstopchicago]

Ultimately, looking as Bustracker won't make the bus come any faster. I do believe that there are still schedules you can look at to decide when you should be at the bus stop, and so should the bus.

Umm, have you ever ridden a CTA bus?

I mean, your comment is just hilarious. A schedule that tells me when the bus should come????

What good does it do me to know when the bus should come? The whole point is that the bus frequently DOESN'T come when it should.

And for any trip where I need to be there on time, I can't risk the possibility that it may not come when it should. So I drive for most time-sensitive trips. Even though most of the time, the bus would get me there on time. The few times that it's drastically off schedule are a big enough risk that I have to go with the safe option.

Bus tracker takes away the gamble. The bus is on time most of the time, and I know it's on time, so I take it. The few times the bus is drastically off schedule, I know ahead of time, and I get in the car. Voila -- CTA gets me for an additional 50 to 100 trips a year.

One day, you may need to use CTA to get somewhere, and then you'll understand what I mean.

[busfan4022]

Umm, have you ever ridden a CTA bus?

No, never in my life.

A schedule that tells me when the bus should come????

What good does it do me to know when the bus should come? The whole point is that the bus frequently DOESN'T come when it should.

And Bustracker is a hundred percent guarantee for the bus to come on time, even during rush hour periods with bad weather?

And for any trip where I need to be there on time, I can't risk the possibility that it may not come when it should.

You do realize that you can leave earlier right? Which you should anyway, because what may happen if the bus breaks down and another wont show for a half an hour?

...Yeah.

So I drive for most time-sensitive trips. Even though most of the time, the bus would get me there on time. The few times that it's drastically off schedule are a big enough risk that I have to go with the safe option.

Bustracker takes away the gamble. The bus is on time most of the time, and I know it's on time, so I take it. The few times the bus is drastically off schedule, I know ahead of time, and I get in the car. Voila -- CTA gets me for an additional 50 to 100 trips a year.

This works for you, but you fail to understand that not everyone who rides the bus has a car. So when people have time sensetive like you do, they are forced to wait for the bus (If possible taxi is unavailable).

One day, you may need to use CTA to get somewhere, and then you'll understand what I mean.

lolSchool is like

far

so the bus is my only option. ]:

[Buslover88]

busfan4022, do you realize that people would BENEFIT from Bustracker? I sure would and so would my mother. We have to sit at a bus stop for a long time everytime we ride #76 and i've become annoyed with it (the buses are late).

With Bustracker, everyone (except maybe you) would be helped out by it. I don't know what you're problem with Bustracker is. Do you WANT people to be always late? Schedules don't help. At least with Bustracker, you'll know when a bus is coming...

[busfan4022]

I never siad it didn't benefit people. I believe it can only benefit people at certain times. Yes, you can see when the bus is coming, and that doesn't say it will always be there on time. If you really want to know when the bus should be there, read the schedule, expect delays, and live with it.

[Buslover88]

I never siad it didn't benefit people. I believe it can only benefit people at certain times. Yes, you can see when the bus is coming, and that doesn't say it will always be there on time. If you really want to know when the bus should be there, read the schedule, expect delays, and live with it.

That's the thing, it just tells you if a bus is coming and where the bus is. Why would I want to live with delays? I, for one, am sick of delays, aren't you? Certain places you go to won't allow for delays, so therefore it's really important to know where a bus is. The schedules don't tell you nothing except what the bus route is and the maps, as far as i'm concerned. Sorry if you disagree.

[busfan4022]

I don't see how schedules can work for PACE, but not CTA.

The logic~

[Busjack]

I don't see how schedules can work for PACE, but not CTA.

The logic~

Which you completely lack in this thread. Maybe we can list 5 flaws.

1. If you looked at the Bus Tracker site, it has both a map and a prediction tool. If you are using the computer at Madison and Ashland, and you see that the next bus to the west is at Madison and Central, you know that it is not coming for a while, and the computer estimates its ETA. It is real time, not a printed schedule.
   
   
2. CTA has printed schedules for all routes, but some say "every 7 to 10 minutes." We know, due to bus bunching, that that might mean 3 buses arrive together in 25 minutes.
   
   
3. Pace has had IBS for about 5 years, and uses it to tweak its printed schedules. CTA can't do that until it has the equivalent system (Bus Tracker) installed.
   
   
4. Because of the above, Pace can more closely keep its schedules. But not even it can do so if it is snowing or the bus is stopped by a train. At least Web Watch gives you the real time information. For instance, it now says that the 8:53 at Glenview will be there at 9:04. Conversely (you are a logician, so you know what that means), Pace said that while its street supervisors indicated that Pace buses ran on time over 90% on time, the IBS indicated that when intermediate time points were reported, it was only 72%. Apparently this was because the buses were running early, as, since then, I have been on Pace buses that were at my stop a few minutes later than expected, but still sat 3 or 4 minutes at the next time point, showing that there was slack in the schedule.
   
   
5. In much of Pace territory, where routes are on 1 hour headways, the main value of a printed Pace schedule is to tell you that if the bus is scheduled for :43 after the hour, and you are at the stop at :12 after, you will have a long wait, unless the prior bus is really late. On heavier routes, such as 270, Pace is not immune from bus bunching. At rush hour, I waited 20 minutes at Jefferson Park for a 270 in cold weather, when two arrived together, even though the rush hour schedule is every 10 minutes.
   

Since you admit that you don't ride the bus, why do you make assumptions about people who do? And how is your full fare transit card reselling operation going?

[trainman8119]

I have refrained from putting my 2 cents in on this, but I think my time has come. As someone who works in the industry, and has for the past 12 or 13 years, I think part of the problem with all of this is that the public has too much information. As has often been mentioned here, a printed schedule is only as good as the conditions that a bus or train will encounter. Bustracker is a wonderful toy, that is it. If you are fortunate to be sitting at a computer and have time to download all of this stuff to see where a bus is, you are in the minority. What it is good for is for the geeks who like watching bus numbers on a map and feel that they are playing dispatcher (no personal attacks intended here). If I were in my younger days, I would be having a blast with this. In my day, I sat at the corner of Diversey and Cicero and watched buses by the dozens pass during the rush hour. Pretty much the same concept. Also, if you are using this "tool" as a means to determine if you are going to take the bus today, you are a fool too. If you are saying, hey, I can catch the bus in two minutes here, I'll take it, what are you going to do later when the snow hits, the building burns or the car crashes, causing mega delays, and you don't have that computer access???? If you are taking the bus, you are committed to taking the bus. Don't tell me that you will take the bus based on the computer projection of the next bus being on time is your ultimate decision maker. You will be the one complaining the loudest later on when you are stuck waiting later on. Many of the businessmen who foolishly sit on the Dan Ryan or Eisenhower daily will tell you that they don't take the train because they can't rely on the fact that trains run only on an hourly schedule. It has nothing to do with the on-time performance...it is the schedule itself that will keep these people off the train. Also, the little grandma who relies on the bus to go to and from the store or the student that is dependent on the bus to get to and from school is going to ride that bus, whether or not it runs on time or 20 minutes late. Yes, there should be an on-time commitment, but again, if you are committed to riding this stuff, you are stuck on time or not.

My point here, is that although this appears to be something that is beneficial, it is for only a select few and I question the money put out for these things. They are nothing but gimmicks, and in the end, only show the inefficiencies of the system. These things should be used as tools for supervisors and management to enhance the system, not for the public to look at this stuff and question why there are 3 buses sitting at Madison and Cicero...when they may be a very good reason for it.

[Buslover88]

What it is good for is for the geeks who like watching bus numbers on a map and feel that they are playing dispatcher (no personal attacks intended here).

So you're calling me a geek? So what if I (and i'm sure there's others) like to watch bus numbers?

Bustracker is a wonderful toy, that is it.

It's not a toy, in case you didn't notice that. Why does everything good that CTA buys look like a toy to you?

the public has too much information.

Yeah, i'd like to see that day come too...

if you are using this "tool" as a means to determine if you are going to take the bus today, you are a fool too

Why would anyone do that? Bustracker is to determine where a bus is, not to determine if you're riding a bus.

what are you going to do later when the snow hits, the building burns or the car crashes, causing mega delays, and you don't have that computer access???? If you are taking the bus, you are committed to taking the bus.

Of course there's nothing we can do about that. That's everyday life.

Don't tell me that you will take the bus based on the computer projection of the next bus being on time is your ultimate decision maker.

Again, i'll say that Bustracker is to determine where a bus is, not to determine if you're riding a bus on a certain day.

You will be the one complaining the loudest later on when you are stuck waiting later on.

I don't have any complaints about Bustracker yet. Do you see any #20 Madison costumers complaining? I don't. Could you give me a link to a news story or whatever regarding complaints about #20's costumers? It would be helpful.

Also, the little grandma who relies on the bus to go to and from the store or the student that is dependent on the bus to get to and from school is going to ride that bus, whether or not it runs on time or 20 minutes late. Yes, there should be an on-time commitment, but again, if you are committed to riding this stuff, you are stuck on time or not.

I agree with almost everything here. I have friends from school who have to ride buses home, but what my protest is that "the little grandma" and the student don't have a computer near them at the time to see Bustracker and might not have internet access on their cell phone.

They are nothing but gimmicks, and in the end, only show the inefficiencies of the system. These things should be used as tools for supervisors and management to enhance the system, not for the public to look at this stuff and question why there are 3 buses sitting at Madison and Cicero...when they may be a very good reason for it.

Why can't the public look at it? We should have the right to look where a bus is. Are you and the CTA afraid that the public will find out something that you and the CTA don't want us to find out? The supervisors are using it, but the public has an ability to look at Bustracker. 3 buses sitting at Madison and Cicero is a sign of major bus bunching and you should know that. For the last time, i'm going to say Bustracker is only to determine where a bus is, not to determine if you're riding a bus on a certain day.

[trainman8119]

Nothing wrong with being a geek. I am a bus geek in the largest form. But, I'd rather be watching the actual bus, not the number on a map.

[Buslover88]

Nothing wrong with being a geek. I am a bus geek in the largest form. But, I'd rather be watching the actual bus, not the number on a map.

I'd like to watch a bus in person too, but if you're not outside and a big bus fan, then what? I'll say that Busjack is right on his above post.

[Kevin]

I see Bus Tracker as giving me the power to make informed decisions.

When I'm heading downtown, I have the option of taking at least two different bus routes to reach two different rail stations. Both methods result in approximately the same travel time. Right now, I have to make uninformed guesses as to what routing I should take. Often, due to a bus being late, the routing I pick ends up taking longer than an alternative. With Bus Tracker, if I see there are delays on one routing, I can go with an alternative route.

If every bus route option available to me (whether it be one or many) is late, I can at least use that information to help minimize my outdoor wait time.

[Busjack]

I'd like to watch a bus in person too, but if you're not outside and a big bus fan, then what? I'll say that Busjack is right on his above post.

I'm glad you agree with me, although trainman's bus geek statement seems related to the prior observation about why you were looking at 3 a.m. Again, not being personal, and there isn't much disagreement here.

As I have indicated, there are two facets to these systems, (1) if the supervisors can use them to get buses back on schedule, and (2) user information. I have contended that IBS and Bus Tracker can be valuable if it is used for (1). Huberman claims that it will be by the CTA. I wonder how much it could really help Pace, given how little it could do to correct buses running on longer headways, and pace2322 indicated that the info was being used to write up drivers, but at least it resulted in more realistic schedules.

With regard to (2), I was commenting more on busfan's inability to distinguish between a real time and printed schedule. Real time could be useful for riders for the reasons described by Kevin and nextstopchicago, especially if the information were provided at most bus stops (not just the one at Madison and Jefferson) and was easily accessible on mobile devices (assuming that bus riders have those devices). There are undoubtedly some avid computer users that will check the computer before leaving home, but I doubt that the average bus rider would. Thus, it may only have marginal utility in the application described in (2) until the described conditions exist. We also had the prior discussion whether the Pace system is using phony data, although the example I gave above indicated that maybe it no longer is.

[Buslover88]

I agree with the two above posts.

[nextstopchicago]

I never siad it didn't benefit people. I believe it can only benefit people at certain times. Yes, you can see when the bus is coming, and that doesn't say it will always be there on time. If you really want to know when the bus should be there, read the schedule, expect delays, and live with it.

No, if you really want to know, you look at the bus tracker. If you really don't want to know, as for people like busfan, you read the schedule.

What kind of idiot would say the bustracker isn't perfect, it'll be wrong 1 time in 10,000 (because a bus could break down in the 8 blocks between where you see it and your stop). And therefore, you should use the schedule, which is wrong 1 time in every 8 or 10 times you go.

And trainman, how can you be so clueless. "Time to download all this stuff." What in hell are you talking about? You have your route in your favorite and it takes 5 seconds to load. "Boom -- there's my bus!" As for having too much information, that pretty much defines you as just the kind of cynical old-timer that Huberman should get rid of. If you can't understand why it would be helpful to riders to know when the bus is coming, you're not fit to work at a mass transit agency.

Trainman, be my guest and waste your time waiting in the rain for a bus that isn't coming for half an hour. Be my guest waiting for the North Avenue which is completely scrambled, when you could walk an extra block and get to Division, where a bus will be there when you get there. Be my guest and drive to the Metra station, because you think it'd be "too much information" or you don't have "time to download all this stuff" to tell you whether the Armitage is a reliable way to get there this morning, and you can' t afford to miss your train.

Most of the rest of the city will have made a habit of bus tracker 5 years from now.

[nextstopchicago]

For the last time, i'm going to say Bustracker is only to determine where a bus is, not to determine if you're riding a bus on.

This is a pretty odd statement too. Kevin and I have both given of examples of ways we WILL use bustracker to decide whether or which bus we'll ride. Why would you said bustracker can't or shouldn't be used for that purpose?

[nextstopchicago]

For the last time, i'm going to say Bustracker is only to determine where a bus is, not to determine if you're riding a bus on.

This is a pretty odd statement too. Kevin and I have both given of examples of ways we WILL use bustracker to decide whether or which bus we'll ride. Why would you said bustracker can't or shouldn't be used for that purpose?

[BusExpert32]

Well, this topic has gone far. But the thing with Bustracker is that it's only on the Internet, and the elderly passengers and students really never have a place to look up bus arrival times on Bustracker. Bustracker will most definitely only fully help those people who leave home and go right to the bus stop (going on the premise that one has Internet access at home). But I for one can't really see Bustracker helping anyone expect for busfans mainly because people just have to ride buses to places with no other choice and they've been waiting countless minutes for all these years, and a change like this is not going to change their perspective on riding CTA buses.

[Buslover88]

This is a pretty odd statement too. Kevin and I have both given of examples of ways we WILL use bustracker to decide whether or which bus we'll ride. Why would you said bustracker can't or shouldn't be used for that purpose?

What I was saying in response to Trainman when he said stuff about riding a bus on a certain day and I had said Bustracker was for where a bus was.

Why would I care WHAT bus is it? I'd be thankful to know where the bus was before anything.

And trainman, how can you be so clueless. "Time to download all this stuff." What in hell are you talking about? As for having too much information, that pretty much defines you as just the kind of cynical old-timer that Huberman should get rid of.

I think Trainman was reffering to the fact the linear view of Bustracker takes a few minutes to "download". I'll also say that Trainman doesn't work for the CTA, he works for METRA, so therefore Huberman can't get rid of him.

Trainman, be my guest and waste your time waiting in the rain for a bus that isn't coming for half an hour. Be my guest waiting for the North Avenue which is completely scrambled, when you could walk an extra block and get to Division, where a bus will be there when you get there. Be my guest and drive to the Metra station, because you think it'd be "too much information" or you don't have "time to download all this stuff" to tell you whether the Armitage is a reliable way to get there this morning, and you can' t afford to miss your train.

Division is 4 blocks south of North, not "an extra block". How is driving you're car and taking the CTA simliar? That's not related at all. I'll agree that the #72 North does get pretty packed.

[trainman8119]

With bustracker, if I'm pressed, I can glance at it, see that my bus is coming, and take the bus, rather than having to drive 50 times because of the rare chance that it'll be so late that I'll miss my meeting.

Bustracker will be a habit for half the city in 5 years, and it will expand bus use significantly.

My reference was to the above statement. I wonder how many times your bus will go by while you are looking at the computer instead of being at the bus stop. Should you choose to use the bus that particular day, and later on the bus is late or whatever, you will be commited to using the bus and won't have the option of going back home to get your car and choose not to use it. That is where I stated you would be complaining the loudest.

I will stand by my gimmick claim. I don't doubt it will be the standard in 5 years, after all a ton of money is being invested. However, the average joe won't be sitting in front of his or her computer tracking their next ride, and my guess is that any bus stop notations will be about as noticed as the constant dinging of "doors closing" on the L or "ding..Grand" on the bus (of course which are ADA requirements).

One last comment, albeit a little bit far fetched, but worth throwing out there. In a time where we are inundated with claims of mass security in light of 9/11, I find it somewhat humorus that there is something being put out there where the average joe can track targets. When CTA, Pace and Metra claim security is at issue for everyting from arresting people for taking pictures to announcements that security is a top priority, maybe one should scratch their head wondering about the sincerity of such statements, yet not guard equipment in yards and allow tracking of vehicles on line.

[Buslover88]

My reference was to the above statement. I wonder how many times your bus will go by while you are looking at the computer instead of being at the bus stop.

I would think that at least one bus passes you by.

In a time where we are inundated with claims of mass security in light of 9/11, I find it somewhat humorus that there is something being put out there where the average joe can track targets. When CTA, Pace and Metra claim security is at issue for everyting from arresting people for taking pictures to announcements that security is a top priority, maybe one should scratch their head wondering about the sincerity of such statements, yet not guard equipment in yards and allow tracking of vehicles on line.

I agree with this.

Getting back on topic (and I apologize for looking at it this late, but i'm bored again), there is only one bus on #20 Madison. The bus is #6717 heading westbond, going past Union Park. My question is where is the eastbound bus(es)??