wordguy Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 I don't know about the political considerations (although I don't doubt it), but the TMC's came in through 77th street. As they were being received the 4400 and 4500's went to 77th, then as more came in, the went to North Park. The 4600's went to Chicago (later Kedzie and Archer). 77th kept the 4700 and 4800's. For whatever reason, the same thing went on with the 5400s at Forest Glen, in and then out. ===Actually, the majority of the TMCs weren't delivered in numerical order. The earliest arrivals (11/90)included a small number of low 4400s, but otherwise seemed randomly distributed throughout the entire 4400-4875 range. Kedzie started receiving TMCs in early spring of '91. 4700s and 4800s continued to arrive at 77th, but lower numbers were assigned to Kedzie. Gradually, the lower-numbered TMCs at 77th then migrated to Kedzie. Finally, by late spring, NorthPark started getting their allotment with many 4400s and 4500s arriving new (again delivered out of sequence) while others in that range were then reassigned from Kedzie or 77th as higher-numbered buses continued to arrive. Some 44-4500s were reassigned twice (77th, then Kedzie) before finally settling in at NorthPark. Concerning the Flxibles, the first 100 were assigned to 103rd, the next 75 or so were delivered new to Lawndale, travelling to Chicago Ave. after Lawndale closed. Unlike the TMCs, they were delivered in numerical sequence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainman8119 Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 ===Actually, the majority of the TMCs weren't delivered in numerical order. The earliest arrivals (11/90)included a small number of low 4400s, but otherwise seemed randomly distributed throughout the entire 4400-4875 range. From the "Chicago Transit and Railfan" page: 4400-4875 (TMC-1991) - North Park, Kedzie, 77th Street Lowest numbered of this first order of lift equipped buses originally assigned to 77th Street, transferred to North Park as higher numbers arrived. In 1994, some buses temporarily traded from 77th Street to Forest Glen for some 5300 series air conditioned buses, enabling more equal distribution of air conditioned buses through system. In 1995, major redistributions of buses, including transfer of all buses from Kedzie, although Kedzie later received a few such buses again. 5300-5769 (Flxible-1991) - 103rd Street, Lawndale, Forest Glen, Archer In 1994, some buses temporarily traded from Forest Glen to 77th Street for some 4400 series non air conditioned buses, enabling more equal distribution of air conditioned buses through system. In 1994 upon closure of Lawndale and opening of Chicago Avenue, buses transferred from Lawndale to Chicago Avenue. In 2002, buses at Forest Glen traded to Kedzie for 6000 series buses. The 4400 series buses transferred to Forest Glen from 77th were lower series 4700s. I will still contend that the 5400s all started out at Forest Glen and were moved to Lawndale/Chicago as higher series buses (5500-5600) arrived. Somehow, I'll try to prove it. If I am wrong, I'll admit it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Did the West Side express routes (61, 99, 99M, 162, 164) run with articulateds?Note, these were not considered west side, as they all ran out of Archer Garage to the far southwest side. The did run with MAN articulateds, and partially resulted in the end of State Street as a transit only mall, because the atmosphere was ruined with all of the large buses packing it. The routes were eventually canceled after the Orange Line opened, although not immediately. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmadisonwi Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I managed to find some old rosters yesterday. Without going through each one in detail, they basically confirm that 77th received some old (though they weren't old back then) Flxibles in 1994 when the nine-garages-to-eight consolidation occurred (Limits & Lawndale closed, Chicago opened). 5553 to 5644 were at 77th. Then it looks like 77th got the first batch of 6000s in 1995 while they still had 5300s. When the 6000s were delivered, the 5300s went back to Forest Glen. One thing shown on these rosters not noted in this thread is that Chicago Garage had 7136-7163 from its opening in 1994 until sometime in 1996. A small handful of them then went to 103rd or North Park, but most of that batch wound up being retired. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 One thing shown on these rosters not noted in this thread is that Chicago Garage had 7136-7163 from its opening in 1994 until sometime in 1996. A small handful of them then went to 103rd or North Park, but most of that batch wound up being retired.Any idea on what routes? What we now consider as Chicago garage routes, or was it just a better place to house them than Archer? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatMan123 Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I occasionally used to see MAN artics on the 33, which has been at Chicago since 1994. Maybe the artics were for the 33. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainman8119 Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Any idea on what routes? What we now consider as Chicago garage routes, or was it just a better place to house them than Archer? Those buses were used on the Washington Express (23) route which was operating as the green line supplemental service when that line was being rebuilt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatMan123 Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Actually, we're talking about buses right BEFORE Chicago opened. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatMan123 Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Those buses were used on the Washington Express (23) route which was operating as the green line supplemental service when that line was being rebuilt. According to Jajaun, 23 was assigned to Kedzie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 According to Jajaun, 23 was assigned to Kedzie.If that was the case, it would have been only before Chicago opened. Chicago-l.org has that project starting on Jan. 9, 1994, so it might have been the case for a short while. Anyway, in 1995 (I know there are time frame haggles here), there were first articulateds on that route, but then 5400 type Flxs, indicating that the route was then operated by Chicago. Similarly MAN Americanas started showing up on route 38 (then the south side L replacement), indicating that they were coming from 69th or 74th (which would have made sense). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 If that was the case, it would have been only before Chicago opened. Chicago-l.org has that project starting on Jan. 9, 1994, so it might have been the case for a short while. Anyway, in 1995 (I know there are time frame haggles here), there were first articulateds on that route, but then 5400 type Flxs, indicating that the route was then operated by Chicago. Similarly MAN Americanas started showing up on route 38 (then the south side L replacement), indicating that they were coming from 69th or 74th (which would have made sense). Actually you're both right. I did mention that 23 was a Kedzie route. That was its original garage assignment before Chicago garage opened. I also stated in another post after Chicago opened all east west routes originally assigned to Kedzie that were north of Jackson were reassigned to Chicago. That would include 23. That would mean that there was a switch from Kedzie's MAN Americanas to Chicago's MAN artics, which by the way were originally at Archer but were no longer need with the cutbacks on the soutwest side express routes after the Orange Line opened and replaced them. I just didn't make as much a deal about these because they happened at the end of the timeframe for this thread: 1990-94. Those Flxibles seen on 99 and 164 which were the last southwest express routes from Archer were put more into use after the MAN artic transfer to Chicago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatMan123 Posted December 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Did the 42 and 45 run with artics ever? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 45 I really doubt, because it was always a weak route out of 69th. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buslover88 Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 45 I really doubt, because it was always a weak route out of 69th. I would have thought that #45 was a strong route because it went Downtown. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 I would have thought that #45 was a strong route because it went Downtown. 42 and 45 were both assigned to the now defunct 69th garage. For those of us who can remember what it was like before the Orange Line came into existance, 42 and 45 actually were strong rush service routes that operated to and from downtown. They both operated from Merchandise Mart down Clark southbound (Dearborn northbound) and Archer from downtown. 42 turned from Archer onto Halsted and terminated at 79th Street to supplement service on the 8 Halsted. The 45 continued further down Archer until Ashland and operated on Ashland to 95th Street to supplement the 9 Ashland. MAN artics never operated on these because the artics that might be seen on the other Archer and Stevenson Expway corridor were assigned to Archer garage. These routes were operated with GMCs and MAN Americanas. 45 was cut immediately on the Monday of the week the Orange Line opened along with 61, 62exp, 99M and 162 from Archer garage. 42 was kept as a mostly peak operation only route because it was felt at the time that there were still a lot of riders along the Halsted leg of the route who still needed and desired the route. With the retirement of the GMC and 74th replacing 69th garage, the route soon became operated by TMCs and Flxible 6000s though the route was never officially designated accessible. Probably had to do with the fact that the 8 Halsted had become accessible and once 42 buses reached 79th during PM rush hours most became northbound 8 Halsted buses. But with the increasing popularity of the Orange Line and other changes like the 8 Halsted rerouting to directly the bus terminal at the Halsted/Orange Line station, the 42's ridership dropped dramatically and it was thus eliminated in the mid 1990s, leaving the 8 Halsted to go it alone. 's 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatMan123 Posted December 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 1 (Indiana/Hyde Park) GMC New Look Flyer Completely TMC (1991 onward) 2 (Hyde Park Express) GMC New Look Flyer TMC 3 (King Drive) Flyer Completely TMC (1991 onward) 4 (Cottage Grove) GMC New Look 5 (South Shore Night Bus) - 1992 onward Flxible 6 (Jeffery Express) MAN articulated Americana 7 (Harrison) GMC New Look (until 1991, again for a few months in 1994) Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 8 (Halsted) GMC New Look Flyer Americana 9 (Ashland) GMC New Look Flyer Americana 11 (Lincoln) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 10 (Museum of Science and Industry) GMC New Look Americana Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 11 (Lincoln) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 12 (Roosevelt) GMC New Look (until 1991, again for a few months in 1994) Americana TMC 14 (South Lake Shore Express) Americana MAN articulated 16 (Lake) Flxible New Look Completely TMC narrow (1991 onward) 17 (Westchester) Americana TMC 18 (16th/18th) GMC New Look Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 20 (Madison) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 21 (Cermak) GMC New Look Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 22 (Clark) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 23 (Washington Express) - 1991 onward Americana 24 (Wentworth) GMC New Look Flyer Completely TMC (1991 onward) 25 (West Cermak) GMC New Look Flxible 27 (South Deering) Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 28 (Stony Island) Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 29 (State) GMC New Look Flyer Completely TMC (1991 onward) 30 (South Chicago) Americana Flxible 31 (31st) GMC New Look Flxible 31A (West 31st) - until 1993 GMC New Look Flxible 32 (West 31st) - 1993 onward Flxible 33 (Magnificent Mile Express) Americana TMC 34 (South Michigan) Americana Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 35 (35th) GMC New Look Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 36 (Broadway) GMC New Look Americana TMC 37 (Sedgwick/Ogden) GMC Flyer Flxible 38 (Michigan Express) - 1994 onward Americana 39 (Pershing) GMC New Look Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 41 (Elston/Clybourn) GMC New Look Flyer Flxible 42 (Halsted/Downtown) - until 1994 GMC New Look Americana 43 (43rd) GMC New Look Flxible 44 (Wallace/Racine) GMC New Look Americana 45 (Ashland/Archer) - until 1993 GMC New Look Americana 47 (47th) GMC New Look Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 48 (South Damen) GMC New Look Americana 49 (Western) GMC New Look Americana TMC 49A (South Western) TMC 49B (North Western) TMC 50 (Damen) GMC New Look Americana Flxible TMC 51 (51st) GMC New Look Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 52 (Kedzie/California) GMC New Look Americana Completely RTS (1991 onward) 52A (South Kedzie) GMC New Look Americana 53 (Pulaski) GMC New Look Flxible 53A (South Pulaski) GMC New Look Flxible 54 (Cicero) GMC New Look Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 54A (North Cicero) GMC New Look Flyer Flxible 54B (South Cicero) GMC New Look Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 55 (Garfield) GMC New Look Americana 55A (55th/Austin) - 1994 onward TMC 55N (55th/Narragansett) - 1994 onward TMC 56 (Milwaukee) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 56A (North Milwaukee) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 57 (Laramie) GMC New Look (until 1991) Americana TMC 59 (59th/61st) Americana TMC 60 (Blue Island/26th) GMC New Look Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 61 (Archer/Franklin Express) - until 1994 GMC New Look Americana 62 (Archer) GMC New Look Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 62X (Archer Express) - until 1994 GMC New Look MAN articulated 62H (Archer/Harlem) - 1993 onward Completely Flxible 63 (63rd) GMC New Look Americana 63W (West 63rd) GMC New Look Americana 64 (Foster/Canfield) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 65 (Grand) GMC New Look (until 1991, again for a few months in 1994) Americana TMC 66 (Chicago) Americana (Red, White and Blue) Completely TMC (1991 onward) 67 (67th/69th/71st) GMC New Look Americana 68 (Northwest Highway) GMC New Look Flyer Flxible 69 (Cumberland/East River) GMC New Look Flyer Flxible 70 (Division) Americana TMC 71 (71st) GMC New Look Flyer Americana TMC 72 (North Avenue) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 73 (Armitage) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 74 (Fullerton) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 75 (74th/75th) GMC New Look Americana 76 (Diversey) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 77 (Belmont) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 78 (Montrose) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 79 (79th) GMC New Look Flyer Completely TMC (1991 onward) 80 (Irving Park) GMC New Look Flyer Flxible 81 (Lawrence) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 81W (West Lawrence) GMC New Look Flyer Flxible 82 (Kimball/Homan) GMC New Look Americana Flxible TMC 83 (83rd) Americana Flxible 84 (Peterson) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 85 (Central) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 85A (North Central) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 86 (Narragansett) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 87 (87th) GMC New Look Flyer TMC 88 (Higgins) GMC Flyer Flxible 89 (North Kedzie) - until late 1991 GMC New Look Americana 90 (Harlem) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 90N (North Harlem) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 91 (Austin) GMC Flyer Flxible 92 (Foster) GMC New Look Flyer Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 93 (California) GMC New Look Americana TMC 94 (South California) GMC New Look Flxible 95E (93rd/95th) Americana Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 95 (West 95th) GMC New Look Flyer Completely TMC (1991 onward) 96 (Lunt) GMC New Look Americana TMC 97 (Skokie) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 99 (Stevenson Express) GMC New Look MAN articulated Flxible 99M (Midway Express) - until 1994 GMC New Look MAN articulated Flxible 100 (Jeffery Manor Express) Americana Flxible 103 (West 103rd) Americana Flxible 106 (East 103rd) Americana Completely Flxible (1991 onward) 108 (Halsted/95th) Americana Flxible 110 (Marquette) GMC New Look Americana 111 (Pullman/111th/115th) Americana Flxible 112 (Vincennes/11th) Americana Flxible 119 (Michigan/119th) Americana Flxible 120 (North Western/Wacker Express) GMC New Look MAN articulated Flyer Americana Flxible TMC 121 (Union/Wacker Express) GMC New Look MAN articulated Flyer Americana Flxible TMC 122 (Illinois Center/North Western Express) GMC New Look MAN articulated Flyer Americana Flxible TMC 123 (Illinois Center/Union Express) GMC New Look MAN articulated Flyer Americana Flxible TMC 125 (Water Tower Express) GMC New Look Americana TMC 126 (Jackson) — accessible only on weekends GMC New Look (until 1991) Americana TMC 127 (NW/Madison) GMC New Look Flyer Americana Flxible TMC 129 (NW/Franklin) GMC New Look Flxible 131 (Washington) GMC New Look TMC 135 (Wilson/LaSalle Express) GMC New Look (1994 onward) Flyer (until 1994) Americana (1994 onward) 136 (Sheridan/LaSalle Express) GMC New Look MAN articulated Americana 145 (Wilson/Michigan Express) GMC New Look (1994 onward) Flyer (until 1994) Americana (1994 onward) 146 (Marine/Michigan Express) GMC New Look Americana 147 (Outer Drive Express) MAN articulated Americana 151 (Sheridan) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 152 (Addison) GMC New Look Flyer Flxible 155 (Devon) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 156 (LaSalle) Flyer 157 (Streeterville) Flyer 162 (Pulaski/Stevenson Express) GMC New Look MAN articulated Flxible 164 (Narragansett Express) GMC New Look MAN articulated Flxible 165 (West 65th) - 1993 onward Flxible 201 (Central/Ridge) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 202 (Main/Emerson) GMC New Look Americana TMC 203 (Ridge/Grant) GMC New Look Americana Completely TMC (1991 onward) 204 (Dodge) GMC New Look Americana TMC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatMan123 Posted December 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 CORRECTION: 23 (Washington Express) - 1994 onward MAN articulated 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatMan123 Posted December 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Back then, what routes were OWL? Today, we have: 4 N5 9 20 22 34 49 53 55 60 62 63 66 77 79 81 151 201 I think 24 was, but I'm not sure. Really, I'm trying to figure out all the OWLs.v 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusExpert32 Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Back then, what routes were OWL? Today, we have: 4 N5 9 20 22 34 49 53 55 60 62 63 66 77 79 81 151 201 I think 24 was, but I'm not sure. Really, I'm trying to figure out all the OWLs.v #24 is not an OWl service route in today's CTA, but #87 87th is (between 87th Red Line and 87th/Western overnight); you forgot to mention it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Correction 10 (Lunch Loop) Flxible Metro 27 (South Deering) Americana Flxible (1991 onward) 28 (Stony Island) Americana Flxible (1991 onward) 37 Sedwick/Ogden GMC New Look until 1994 Flxible until 1994 Flyer Americana starting 1994 TMC starting 1994 38 Michigan Express Americana TMC starting 1994 Flxible 6000s starting 1994 61 (Archer/Frankin Express) GMC New Look Flxible MAN Americana (Borrowed only) 63 (W 63rd) after 1993 Flxible TMC 94 (South California) GMC until 1991 Americana until 1994 TMC until 1994 GMC after 1994 Note: this route transferred from Kedzie to Archer permanently in 1994 131 Washington GMC until 1991 Americana TMC only (starting 1991) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Couple of other things I noticed. What was being called 83 83rd was actually a part of the 95E 93rd/95th which was Americana and then totally Flxible starting in 1991. 93 was actually called 93 N California in those days. What was listed as 31A were actually special rush hour trips of the 35 35th until the opening of the Orange Line in 1993. MAN Arctics, Americanas, GMCs and TMCs from North Park operated eastbound school trips from Lane Tech High school. Also 154 Wrigley Field Express wasn't listed. It was shared by North Park and Forest Glen so there might be Americanas, MAN Arctics, TMCs, Flxibles, Flyers and GMC New Looks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Back then, what routes were OWL? Today, we have: 4 N5 9 20 22 34 49 53 55 60 62 63 66 77 79 81 151 201 I think 24 was, but I'm not sure. Really, I'm trying to figure out all the OWLs.v You could add 8, 12, 18, 23, 27(before N5 existed), 28, 29, 38, 47, 52, 54, 67(before N5), 72, 74, 85, 88, 95E(before N5 existed),108, 111, 112 (until 1991 not sure), 119 and 155 to the list above. Also as noted in a previous post 87 was added in the 90's. It's owl service was between 91st/Commercial and 87th/Western, but that was cut back to the current operation on 87th between Western and the Red line during the cuts of 1997 and 1998. 18 and 74 lost owl service in 1991. 27, 67 and 95E had their owl service along the more popularly ridden portions replaced by the 5 in 1991 which was later to be designated N5 toward the mid nineties. The rest lost their owl service in the big service cuts of 1997 and 1998. As for that reference to 24 it's possible that it was a part of owl service up until 1991. For the person who made it a point to point out that 24 is not a part of the owl service in today's CTA, that's true but I believe the original post was referring to it as a possible part of past CTA owl service. Let's read each other's post carefully before we're so quick to point out corrections. If some were lucky if waiting for a 70 Division during the 1990s, they might run across a bus stop sign that referenced it's former owl service from the 80s that operated between Clark/Walton and California/Division. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatMan123 Posted December 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 What did the old non-electric destination signs say? This is all I have: 3 (Northbound) – King Drive l Michigan / Chicago 4 (Northbound) – Cottage Grove l Michigan Av / Illinois Cntr 29 (Southbound) – State l 95/Ryan station 68 (Northbound) – Northwest Highway l Toughy / Park Ridge 91 (Southbound) – Austin l Roosevelt 128 – Soldier Field 146 (Northbound) – Marine/Michigan Express l Berwyn station 149 (Westbound) – Stateliner l Soldier Field 154 – Express l Wrigley Field 152 (Westbound) – Addison l Cumberland 155 (Eastbound) – Devon l Sheridan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielsmusic Posted December 3, 2007 Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 If anyone has pictures of buses in this time frame on normal runs, could they please post them? Especially pictures of the 135, 145, 156, 157 as Flyers. I loved the Flyers and used to ride them on these routes a lot. Thanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielsmusic Posted December 26, 2007 Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 Wait, if the southwest side express routes ran articulateds, how would all routes be covered by Archer's 35 articulateds? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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