New Bus Route Proposals- (with a funding solution)

[Busjack]

Secondly, I only said that this was irritating because the CTA never tests out new service without very high demands and funding. I thought it would be a good idea to just test something like this for two months or so, and then see whether or not ridership will increase to the overall total of the entire #155 route.

That isn't true. There was the North Suburbs-Rogers Park restructuring in 2003 (see Press Release). Among other things that happened during the time was the various messing with the 96 Lunt route (into the SE Skokie Industrial Park, then finally down McCormick to Devon). If I remember correctly, that remained an "experiment" for two years. Apparently, too, that experiment hasn't generated much ridership, because nearly all of the routes involved are on the doomsday list (but, as I previously argued, that may have been for political reasons).

One must consider that the west side restructuring a year ago is still in "experiment" status.

Finally, considering the demographics of Devon east and west of Kedzie, there is no way that west of Devon could ever "increase to the overall total of the entire #155 route." I used to live there, and am familiar with the area, so I know.

It is one thing to have an opinion with little to back it other than irritation, but far worse to misrepresent the facts.

[BusExpert32]

That isn't true. There was the North Suburbs-Rogers Park restructuring in 2003 (see Press Release). Among other things that happened during the time was the various messing with the 96 Lunt route (into the SE Skokie Industrial Park, then finally down McCormick to Devon). If I remember correctly, that remained an "experiment" for two years. Apparently, too, that experiment hasn't generated much ridership, because nearly all of the routes involved are on the doomsday list (but, as I previously argued, that may have been for political reasons).

One must consider that the west side restructuring a year ago is still in "experiment" status.

Finally, considering the demographics of Devon east and west of Kedzie, there is no way that west of Devon could ever "increase to the overall total of the entire #155 route." I used to live there, and am familiar with the area, so I know.

It is one thing to have an opinion with little to back it other than irritation, but far worse to misrepresent the facts.

Well fine then, the CTA has been reconstructing many areas of service such as Evanston service, the North and South Lake Shore express service, and the west side restructuring over the past few years, but all I'm saying is that they should test out the west portion of Devon. It's not that big of a change, and it won't cost that much even if it's disasterous. It's only an extension, and if the CTA has pulled off riskier things, then why not this?

[Busjack]

... all I'm saying is that they should test out the west portion of Devon. It's not that big of a change, and it won't cost that much even if it's disasterous [sic]. It's only an extension, and if the CTA has pulled off riskier things, then why not this?

Very simple. Even in the announcement of that experiment, CTA justified it by noting that it should "provide better links between employment generators, ... meet customer demands and improve efficiency." You are proposing the experiment ... you tell us how it meets those goals. So far you have defied us on doing that. Name the missed traffic generator. At least with the 11 restructuring, CTA said it was the Target shopping center on Howard, even though 11 doesn't go into it.

Even if you are assuming a funding solution, neither the RTA (in its apparently disregarded Moving Beyond Congestion report) nor you should assume that there is infinite tax money available. I believe that trainman and I agree that even a "funding solution" should be coupled with making needed reforms, including rationalizing service with demand. CTA seems to understand that to some extent (although not to the extent I would like). You fail completely in grasping that concept.

That is why not this, until you meet your burden.

[BusExpert32]

Very simple. Even in the announcement of that experiment, CTA justified it by noting that it should "provide better links between employment generators, ... meet customer demands and improve efficiency." You are proposing the experiment ... you tell us how it meets those goals. So far you have defied us on doing that. Name the missed traffic generator. At least with the 11 restructuring, CTA said it was the Target shopping center on Howard, even though 11 doesn't go into it.

The #155 extension would provide more effecient service by providing a no transfer connection to the Lake Shore area on all of Devon instead of going through a series of transfers to get there, and I'm a customer and you can say that I'm demanding this extension- I'm sure that there's many people who would need this extension more than I do, but they just aren't the type that would go public with the demand such as the neighborhood around the Kedzie Brown Line tried doing so. My proposal for an extension is not just an out of the blue type of an idea because it does meet those goals. The west portion of Devon also is a two-lane street, a main street that acts as a boundary for the city of Chicago and Lincolnwood, and it passes through a couple of residential neighborhoods that would love to have a bus run right on Devon- walking to Peterson and Caldwell isn't such a great idea with the winter conditions, and most customers just can't walk the distance and make it in time.

[Busjack]

Most of the above are untested assertions. Where is the traffic generator?

And how is this any different that when both CTA and Nortran withdrew service? The residential area was there then.

[BusExpert32]

Most of the above are untested assertions. Where is the traffic generator?

Well, thanks for asking. Some traffic generators could be the Edgebrook Metra Station, the couple of schools in the area, the couple of churches in the area, and the major amount of shopping locations at Milwaukee/Devon.

This is different from prior service on Devon because Devon today isn't the Devon from years ago, and that is why I am proposing a test like this, so that the assertions can be proven or denied.

[Busjack]

This is different from prior service on Devon because Devon today isn't the Devon from years ago, and that is why I am proposing a test like this, so that the assertions can be proven or denied.

As I noted, I used to live on Devon, prior to the cuts, and the area you mention doesn't look that different to me. Tell me what new schools and shopping centers have been built.

I'll sort of agree that Devon between California and Damen is much more densely populated than when I lived around there. But that is outside the area you are describing.

Also, as noted in the various restructuring plans, the data have to be collected before the experiment--no transit authority here runs the experiment first to try to get the data. For instance, for the west side one, CTA did customer surveys on who was going to the Medical Center, etc.

[BusExpert32]

As I noted, I used to live on Devon, prior to the cuts, and the area you mention doesn't look that different to me. Tell me what new schools and shopping centers have been built.

I'll sort of agree that Devon between California and Damen is much more densely populated than when I lived around there. But that is outside the area you are describing.

Also, as noted in the various restructuring plans, the data have to be collected before the experiment--no transit authority here runs the experiment first to try to get the data. For instance, for the west side one, CTA did customer surveys on who was going to the Medical Center, etc.

In that case, I guess the #155 will never be extended west of Kedzie. I don't think there will ever be enough people to complete a survey or a petition such as the one for the Medical Center.

I was reffering to the great amount of restaurants, fast-food places, banks, grocery stores, and other family-owned stores right at Devon/Nagle/Milwaukee where I constantly go. There is one church that I know of (Queen of All Saints) at Devon and Kilpatrick, and there are a couple of schools in the Edgebrook neighborhood- Elementary and Junior High.

[BusExpert32]

I have a couple of more proposals.

99 McCormick- The main purpose of this bus would be to provide CTA service at Linden Purple Line, to provide more service to the Lincolnwood Towncenter, and to supplement the #201 for service on Central between Green Bay Rd. and Sheridan to provide more service for the Northwestern University and Ryan Field.

The routing would be: McCormick(N)- Green Bay(NW)- Central(E)- Sheridan (N)- Central[in Wilmette](W)- 4th St(S)- Linden Purple Line terminal- 3rd St(N)- Central[in Wilmette](E)- Sheridan(S)- Central(W)- Green Bay(SE)- McCormick(S)- terminate at Lincolnwood Towncenter- McCormick(N).

Some traffic generators would be: the Lincolnwood Town Center, Central Metra Station, Central Purple Line, Linden Purple Line, Ryan Field, and other Northwestern University destinations. McCormick is a wide street that has no bus service that could act as the main artery of this route between the two terminating points.

202 East Touhy- The CTA already runs service during rush hour on Touhy between Howard Red Line and the Lincolnwood Towncenter, but they run it with a Pace route number which isn't just right in my opinion. I think that there should be #202 similar to the #56A during rush hour only on Touhy. Running seperate service just needs a route number in my opinion.

[jajuan]

202 East Touhy- The CTA already runs service during rush hour on Touhy between Howard Red Line and the Lincolnwood Towncenter, but they run it with a Pace route number which isn't just right in my opinion. I think that there should be #202 similar to the #56A during rush hour only on Touhy. Running seperate service just needs a route number in my opinion.

How is this any different from Pace using the same 204 Dodge number and and route name for Saturday service on that route when it still existed before the North Side/Evanston/Skokie Corridor study route changes? Sure it can be argued that Pace's lower numbered routes are 2xx, but 204 was a 'CTA' number. There weren't many complaints or much confusion then. I think people were more concerned with still having adequate Saturday service along Dodge whether it was Pace or CTA and regardless of if both agencies operated buses on the same route using the same number. Now that service is operated by the current 93 California/Dodge.

[BusExpert32]

How is this any different from Pace using the same 204 Dodge number and and route name for Saturday service on that route when it still existed before the North Side/Evanston/Skokie Corridor study route changes? Sure it can be argued that Pace's lower numbered routes are 2xx, but 204 was a 'CTA' number. There weren't many complaints or much confusion then. I think people were more concerned with still having adequate Saturday service along Dodge whether it was Pace or CTA and regardless of if both agencies operated buses on the same route using the same number. Now that service is operated by the current 93 California/Dodge.

Pace also uses #205 and #206 as route numbers for some type of shuttle routes near Woodfield Mall, but it's far away from the city of Chicago, so no one cares. The #204 was an exception, but we can see that Pace cut all of its service on Dodge, and the CTA extended the #93, and discontinued #204 in its entirety. I really don't know what type of problem the CTA has with just creating a new rush hour route along east Touhy, instead of using the #290 as the route number- which confuses many who ride the #290 daily. Creating a new route and putting it on the official CTA bus/rail map would clear up all of this #290 confusion.

[rmadisonwi]

The CTA version of the 290 doesn't run during rush hours. It runs during late evenings when Pace service is sparse (well...more sparse).

[jajuan]

Pace also uses #205 and #206 as route numbers for some type of shuttle routes near Woodfield Mall, but it's far away from the city of Chicago, so no one cares. The #204 was an exception, but we can see that Pace cut all of its service on Dodge, and the CTA extended the #93, and discontinued #204 in its entirety. I really don't know what type of problem the CTA has with just creating a new rush hour route along east Touhy, instead of using the #290 as the route number- which confuses many who ride the #290 daily. Creating a new route and putting it on the official CTA bus/rail map would clear up all of this #290 confusion.

As noted in the post preceding mine CTA runs 290 trips in the late evening from runs off other routes that served downtown Evanston and need to pull in for the evening. I'm failing to see how this is confusing. The CTA runs operate the same routing as Pace only difference is the trips end at McCormick. It's so simple Pace service runs all the way to Cumberland Blue and CTA service doesn't. It's noted in the Pace 290 schedules that this is the case. All folks have to do is read the destination signs or listen too the bus announcement system.

[Busjack]

I have a couple of more proposals.

99 McCormick- The main purpose of this bus would be to provide CTA service at Linden Purple Line, to provide more service to the Lincolnwood Towncenter, and to supplement the #201 for service on Central between Green Bay Rd. and Sheridan to provide more service for the Northwestern University and Ryan Field.

Why should CTA run more service in the suburbs when the 96 that connects to your proposed route is failing? No part of this proposed route is in Chicago. Why should CTA be competing with itself and Pace 213? Not even Pace found any demand for anything like this when it did the North Shore restructuring survey, although there was some call to extend 250 toward Northwestern, but nothing came of that. Also, the potential ridership is low--there is a canal on the east side of McCormick!

202 East Touhy- The CTA already runs service during rush hour on Touhy between Howard Red Line and the Lincolnwood Towncenter, but they run it with a Pace route number which isn't just right in my opinion. I think that there should be #202 similar to the #56A during rush hour only on Touhy. Running seperate service just needs a route number in my opinion.

What difference does it make if the number is 202, 96 (as it was when Lunt and Touhy were connected) 89 (a frequently doomed number) or 159 or 22,763 (oh the latter may not fit on the sign)? And again, after CTA abandoned the route to Pace, why should it now compete with Pace? However, I have argued that Pace should not be running the 290 locals only between Howard and McCormick, and if CTA wants to run that supplemental service, it should.

Like I said previously, since you seem to know where the funds are to fund this, let us know first. It doesn't seem to make sense to even be talking about extending routes like this when there isn't enough money to keep any local service in Evanston, nearly any service on the Northwest side, etc. I remember a couple of years ago when another member just proposed putting L lines wherever. He doesn't do that now. But maybe you can tell us about where you live, and we could propose a L line on the street in front of your house, blocking your view, but giving you personalized express service.

[Danielsmusic]

Like I said previously, since you seem to know where the funds are to fund this, let us know first. It doesn't seem to make sense to even be talking about extending routes like this when there isn't enough money to keep any local service in Evanston, nearly any service on the Northwest side, etc. I remember a couple of years ago when another member just proposed putting L lines wherever. He doesn't do that now. But maybe you can tell us about where you live, and we could propose a L line on the street in front of your house, blocking your view, but giving you personalized express service.

Unnecessarily harsh, but a little funny.

[Busjack]

Unnecessarily harsh, but a little funny.

Glad you saw some humor. What inspired it was another forum, where a "transit expert" from Buffalo Grove suggested that the Red Line extension should be an L over S. Michigan Ave.

[BusExpert32]

Why should CTA run more service in the suburbs when the 96 that connects to your proposed route is failing? No part of this proposed route is in Chicago. Why should CTA be competing with itself and Pace 213? Not even Pace found any demand for anything like this when it did the North Shore restructuring survey. Also, the potential ridership is low--there is a canal on the east side of McCormick!

What difference does it make if the number is 202, 96 (as it was when Lunt and Touhy were connected) 89 (a frequently doomed number) or 159 or 22,763 (oh the latter may not fit on the sign)? And again, after CTA abandoned the route to Pace, why should it now compete with Pace? However, I have argued that Pace should not be running the 290 locals only between Howard and McCormick, and if CTA wants to run that supplemental service, it should.

Like I said previously, since you seem to know where the funds are to fund this, let us know first. It doesn't seem to make sense to even be talking about extending routes like this when there isn't enough money to keep any local service in Evanston, nearly any service on the Northwest side, etc. I remember a couple of years ago when another member just proposed putting L lines wherever. He doesn't do that now. But maybe you can tell us about where you live, and we could propose a L line on the street in front of your house, blocking your view, but giving you personalized express service.

Well, I understand that McCormick is not an appropriate street for a bus route, but it was the best street I could think of for a connection between the Lincolnwood Towncenter and Linden Purple Line. Let me rephrase my second proposal: #290 should be express during rush hour between McCormick and Howard Red Line (similar to #270), and the CTA should run a new route there during rush hour (similar to the #56A). I see no humor in your post; my proposals are well thought out and organized, but the L proposals you mentioned were outrageous compared to mine. Do I propose to put service everywhere? No.

[Busjack]

... my proposals are well thought out and organized... Do I propose to put service everywhere? No.

However, since you seem to reject the standards supported by CTA and Pace, such as identifying traffic generators, such as businesses and hospitals, doing customer research before proposing a restructuring experiment, etc., as previously mentioned, why don't you tell us what your criteria are for saying that a route is viable? I sort of now understand the concept of the 155 Superdawg Feeder, but unless the proof of ridership is more than it would save you a transfer, I still pass on it. Also, for reasons previously stated, I do not see any justification for extending CTA further into Pace territory, although I do agree with the idea that Pace should not be providing local service within Chicago on 290.

[BusExpert32]

However, since you seem to reject the standards supported by CTA and Pace, such as identifying traffic generators, such as businesses and hospitals, doing customer research before proposing a restructuring experiment, etc., as previously mentioned, why don't you tell us what your criteria are for saying that a route is viable?

I don't reject these standards. I agree with all of the traffic generators, customer research, etc. And I do mention all of my criteria for my proposals in my original posts.

I sort of now understand the concept of the 155 Superdawg Feeder,

Now that's good humor.

[MetroShadow]

I sort of now understand the concept of the 155 Superdawg Feeder

And Now I'm hungry (and will proceed to said establishment).

[Buslover88]

Why should CTA run more service in the suburbs when the 96 that connects to your proposed route is failing? No part of this proposed route is in Chicago. Why should CTA be competing with itself and Pace 213? Not even Pace found any demand for anything like this when it did the North Shore restructuring survey, although there was some call to extend 250 toward Northwestern, but nothing came of that. Also, the potential ridership is low--there is a canal on the east side of McCormick!

What difference does it make if the number is 202, 96, 89 or 159 or 22,763? And again, after CTA abandoned the route to Pace, why should it now compete with Pace? However, I have argued that Pace should not be running the 290 locals only between Howard and McCormick, and if CTA wants to run that supplemental service, it should.

Like I said previously, since you seem to know where the funds are to fund this, let us know first. It doesn't seem to make sense to even be talking about extending routes like this when there isn't enough money to keep any local service in Evanston, nearly any service on the Northwest side, etc. I remember a couple of years ago when another member just proposed putting L lines wherever. He doesn't do that now.

I agree with you on all of this, Busjack. I'll say that i'm sorry if I got you mad when I proposed putting those lines wherever (I was the member who did that for those who don't know)

But maybe you can tell us about where you live, and we could propose a L line on the street in front of your house, blocking your view, but giving you personalized express service.

I find that sort of humorous .

[BusExpert32]

I find that sort of humorous .

Well, I don't. That statement really came 'out of the blue' because I'm not proposing all of these routes just for myself, and I've never pleaded to have more effecient service on my daily commutes.

[Danielsmusic]

I agree with you on all of this, Busjack. I'll say that i'm sorry if I got you mad when I proposed putting those lines wherever (I was the member who did that for those who don't know)

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but were you the person who pretended to be a bus driver?

[Buslover88]

That statement really came 'out of the blue' because I'm not proposing all of these routes just for myself, and I've never pleaded to have more effecient service on my daily commutes.

Well, it's true when you say that you're not thinking of it for yourself.

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but were you the person who pretended to be a bus driver?

Yes. I'm very ashamed of it, too. I'm better then that now.

[Zol87]

#155 Devon expansion

There has been no demand for the #155 Devon bus to be extended from Kedzie/Devon to Milwaukee/Devon, but it's just something that's been irritating me for years. The routing would be: Devon(W)- Milwaukee(N)-terminate at Imlay CTA trurnaround- Milwaukee(S)- Devon(E)- and so forth.

I don't know if my ideas are that great, but I am ready for some good constructive criticism.

I would use the #155 West Devon. It would really serve some business areas like Devon from McCormick to Pulaski and Spokane-Caldwell. It would also improve connections between the Red and blue line areas.

Do you also think that the Devon stretch from Milwaukee to Harlem should be served by this route. What kind of service hours should this route have?

On another note, It would also provide good connections to get across Devon from the International Area to Superdawg.