Doomsday and LSD express routes ridership

[trainman8119]

Last I heard over the weekend was that there was a chance of something happening in the House, but the Senate was still a long shot. The belief is that a simple majority is needed to get something done. Don't assume this is a done deal. How many times can you cry wolf, and maybe someone will wake up and see that the CTA has (allegedly) spend the last bailout monies on begging for more instead of putting it to operational use...so again, how dire is this !!!!!!! You can cry about the pols not doing their thing, but mismanagement again reigns supreme, and why should someone from anyplace other than the 6 county area vote for any transit plan without taking care of themselves in the meantime. No, this is not a slam dunk and I would say that it is 55-45% that you will see a doomsday date arrive. Whether or not CTA management has the cahoonies to go through with it remains to be seen. And don't discount some sort of Daley rescue, even on a small scale, should the State remain stalemated.

[qwantae]

Because I think they're big, graceless, soulless, cumbersome, wretched, bug-eyed pieces of junk. They look like aborted fetuses. They have absolutely no character and are pretty much simply transit appliances. They're difficult to maneuver around inside and out. They're not "beta test" buses like the NABIs, so they'll probably last their designated 12 years, but they'll continue to bore bus fans and riders alike throughout their tenure. Of course, your average bus rider won't care, and maybe that's the point.

They don't offer any distinct advantage over any other low floor bus, and they particularly denigrate the image of what a low-floor RTS could've been.

I would love to see an RTS Low Floor and CTA To order them to replace 6000s.

[Busjack]

I would love to see an RTS Low Floor and CTA To order them to replace 6000s.

What's more important--a nonexistent bus from a bankrupt company, or the alleged destruction of the Black Community? Either you have no sense of priorities, or we can't take your prior post seriously.

[Buslover88]

Well, I think the cuts will likely happen because it just seems like it will.

[Danielsmusic]

What's more important--a nonexistent bus from a bankrupt company, or the alleged destruction of the Black Community? Either you have no sense of priorities, or we can't take your prior post seriously.

Okay, that's a little extreme. You don't need to go ragging on people like that. While I am baffled by the posts as well, you don't have to say something so....well, mean.

[Busjack]

Okay, that's a little extreme. You don't need to go ragging on people like that. While I am baffled by the posts as well, you don't have to say something so....well, mean.

Like qwantae's original racism charge wasn't mean and totally unjustified.

[jajuan]

Like qwantae's original racism charge wasn't mean and totally unjustified.

It may have been unjustified in your opinion, but I think it is a stretch to say that it was mean. Looking at how some of the cuts play themselves out on the west and south sides I can understand why he feels the way he does. So I'm not going to stand back and say that his point of view is totally unjustified. I may not totally agree, but I am respectful about it though. And no I'm not saying that things have to be sugarcoated and seen through rose colored eyes, but we should still be respectful about how we debate other people's positions. Sorry to say but you are an attack dog on a rampage with how you go about disagreeing with folks. It's beyond hostile at times.

While we're on the subject about playing 'the race card', just because we are in the year 2008 and things are better than they used to be when the civil rights movement came about, that does not mean racism has completely disappeared like you and some others like to believe. By even making the statement that someone is playing the race card is offensive because it gives the impression that anyone who may experience a racist action is not to be taken seriously because it can just be blown off and brushed to the side. There is no way that a mere 40 years is going to just magically erase 400 years of institutionalized injustice against a whole group of people. Everyone wants to ignore the problems that still exist and think everything is just peachy. But sorry it does not work that way. Whether you want to believe it or not, there are still people who are in positions of power who still want to limit or hold back whole sections of our society based on race and skin color. Just because you don't hold such beliefs does not mean that there still aren't those who do. That's how they work in today's society, by banking on the fact that there are people such as yourself who want to fool themselves into thinking that racism is a thing of the past when sadly it is not.

[Busjack]

While we're on the subject about playing 'the race card', just because we are in the year 2008 and things are better than they used to be when the civil rights movement came about, that does not racism has completely disappeared like you and some others like to believe. By even making the statement that someone is playing the race card is offensive because it gives the impression that anyone who may experience a racist action is not to be taken seriously because it can just be blown off and brushed to the side. There is no way that a mere 40 years is going to just magically erase 400 years of institutionalized injustice against a whole group of people. Everyone wants to ignore the problems that still exist and think everything is just peachy. But sorry it does not work that way. Whether you want to believe it or not, there are still people who are positions of power who still want to limit or hold back whole sections of our society based on race and skin color. Just because you don't hold such beliefs does not mean that there still aren't those who do. That's how they work in today's society, by banking on the fact that there are people such as yourself who want to fool themselves into thinking that racism is a thing of the past when sadly it is not.

This requires several responses.

1. There is a legal definition of racial (and other types of discrimination):

a. One is disparate treatment, which means that an action was taken because one is of a certain racial or sexual group or national origin, or has a handicap. That would take a showing that Carole Brown, a black person, and the rest of the CTA Board cut certain routes on a racial basis. You and qwante have no proof of that. The motivations seems to be economic, political, and the like. While exitzero and I agree that some of the cuts are stupid or political, stupidity is not intentional discrimination.

b. The other is disparate impact, meaning that while there was no intention to discriminate, the action had discriminatory effects. Now, as I have frequently demonstrated, if there was any discriminatory effect, it wasn't on the Black community. The discriminatory effect, if any, is against people who live in the periphery of the city, or near crosstown lines on half-mile streets on the North Side. Now, if the CTA Board had said that there was no money to run the local 3, 4, 9, and 15 buses, but could run the 62H, you would have had an argument, but the opposite occurred.

2. I was going to mention that times have changed since the 50s and 60s, but you seem to recognize that. I wonder if qwante does.

Thus, I don't agree with you that people can unjustifiably claim that removing an express bus from one neighborhood is racial discrimination, especially when some neighborhoods, of different racial composition, will potentially lose all service.

We are supposed to be politically correct to someone who throws a bomb such as the "destruction of the Black Community?" Who is being intemperate?

And if qwante really believes his claims, he can file a discrimination complaint with the FTA, as I mentioned. CTA claims says that it has already done the discrimination analysis required by the FTA.

[Busjack]

I also find it somewhat incredible that the rest of you are trying to defend the remarks, when the author thereof seems unable or unwilling to do so.

[Buslover88]

Will you people stop accusing the CTA of racism on the doomsday subject? Doomsday effects ALL races, not just whites, not just African Americans, but all races. The LSD express routes north of Downtown are being cut -- who does that effect? All races. I am so sick and tired of racism thrown in on every topic, it needs to stop, and if it doesn't, well, i'll just have to report it.

Also, Busjack, in your last post when you say "I also find it somewhat incredible that the rest of you are trying to defend the remarks, when the author thereof seems unable or unwilling to do so", don't include me.

BusHunter, while I agree that if they cut #76 (the route I ride most) and #152 it'll be a recipe for disater, who's to say the cuts won't happen? I think the cuts will likely happen. In conclusion, I will say these cuts are very horrific and i'm outraged by the legislators decisions as of late. Gives me another reason to not vote for Rod when I turn 18.

[Busjack]

Also, Busjack, in your last post when you say "I also find it somewhat incredible that the rest of you are trying to defend the remarks, when the author thereof seems unable or unwilling to do so", don't include me.

author thereof was qwante.

I appreciate your comments.

[qwantae]

author thereof was qwante.

I appreciate your comments.

Dont include me, I didnt mean any race at all, Im just not happy with the cuts. And I know that im not the only one.

[BusExpert32]

author thereof was qwante.

I appreciate your comments.

Busjack, you seem to be consistently disagreeing with everyone except for Buslover- even if he makes a mistake. I don't understand. But, nonetheless, who cares, and I'll get back on topic. (I'm sorry if this is mean, insulting, or offending)

Racism is a major issue in Chicago transit because of the distinct variety of race in every part of the city. Every part of the city is begging for more service, and when one area gets an expansion, everyone else blames racism because of the variety of race everywhere. Also, the cuts won't occur because if they do, the CTA won't be able to function with the major increase of passengers per vehicle, so then say good bye to mass transit in Chicago and the suburbs.

[jajuan]

This requires several responses.

1. There is a legal definition of racial (and other types of discrimination):

a. One is disparate treatment, which means that an action was taken because one is of a certain racial or sexual group or national origin, or has a handicap. That would take a showing that Carole Brown, a black person, and the rest of the CTA Board cut certain routes on a racial basis. You and qwante have no proof of that. The motivations seems to be economic, political, and the like. While exitzero and I agree that some of the cuts are stupid or political, stupidity is not intentional discrimination.

b. The other is disparate impact, meaning that while there was no intention to discriminate, the action had discriminatory effects. Now, as I have frequently demonstrated, if there was any discriminatory effect, it wasn't on the Black community. The discriminatory effect, if any, is against people who live in the periphery of the city, or near crosstown lines on half-mile streets on the North Side. Now, if the CTA Board had said that there was no money to run the local 3, 4, 9, and 15 buses, but could run the 62H, you would have had an argument, but the opposite occurred.

2. I was going to mention that times have changed since the 50s and 60s, but you seem to recognize that. I wonder if qwante does.

Thus, I don't agree with you that people can unjustifiably claim that removing an express bus from one neighborhood is racial discrimination, especially when some neighborhoods, of different racial composition, will potentially lose all service.

We are supposed to be politically correct to someone who throws a bomb such as the "destruction of the Black Community?" Who is being intemperate?

And if qwante really believes his claims, he can file a discrimination complaint with the FTA, as I mentioned. CTA claims says that it has already done the discrimination analysis required by the FTA.

Number one, I did not say that the cuts were racist or discriminatory. I said because of how some of the cuts play themselves out on the west and south sides, I can understand how others can think so. Big difference. Just because I can understand the position doesn't mean I agree with it. So please don't say that I'm accusing the CTA of anything in that regard. My point about racism though is that I object to the term 'playing the race card' because it does make it too easy to dismiss it when it really does happen (which if I haven't made myself clear I don't think is the case here) because we don't like to discuss it. Now that's the last I'm going to speak of that subject.

Of course the cuts are going to affect everyone. I've been saying from the beginning that the cuts are more economic and status related than anything else as well as there being some political considerations. Now could he have phrased it differently? Yes maybe he could. Is he any less entitled his opinion or belief. Certainly not. And you're right in asking him to back up why he believes it. If he's going to post it in a public forum he should be able to give some justification for it. And please let's not get into that oh I have to be politically correct nonsense. I look at that as a cover to not acknowledge that there are respectful ways to disagree with each other.

And Buslover I don't think expressing his misguided opinion is anything to report because he didn't make any person attacks against any of us nor was he in any way using hateful language to any of us.

[exitzero]

Dont include me, I didnt mean any race at all, Im just not happy with the cuts. And I know that im not the only one.

Er...okay, then.

This thread has officially jumped the shark.

My only question at this point is, if the cuts go through and the entire north side is thrown into chaos (which is what will happen - do you expect all these people to crush the Red Line?) would there be any means to add extra bus service to satisfy what will undoubtedly be insane demand on nearby routes that head downtown?

[Busjack]

My only question at this point is, if the cuts go through and the entire north side is thrown into chaos (which is what will happen - do you expect all these people to crush the Red Line?) would there be any means to add extra bus service to satisfy what will undoubtedly be insane demand on nearby routes that head downtown?

Getting back to the topic, and to be responsible, any answer to this would have to be tempered by what happens as mentioned in the Legislative Update. We still need action by the Senate and Governor. However, based on the last two gubernatorial bailouts, I don't think this would be a situation where the Gov. waits 60 days to decide how to deal with a bill. By the way, I am hedging my bets, with one response I would put on Ask Carole if the cuts happen, and another on Wikipedia if they do not. Anyway, anything can happen (except that any bill that passes won't have effective RTA reforms, but just window dressing).

The premise of the cuts is that 2400 employees and 738 buses will not be on the street. Thus, the only way there theoretically could be additional service is, if, for instance, articulateds are taken off the LSD routes and put on heavy local ones, like 22. Other than that, I can't see additional service happening, unless the stalemate went so long that the transit authorities felt that they had made their political point. Remember that the 1981 statemate lasted 2 years; according to Chicago Transit and Railfan, most suburban service, then run by the private companies under contract with the RTA, was suspended for varying periods (see the Suburban Bus Routes History page, and click on the 300s links).

The CTA and Pace budgets assume that they will not collect the fares on the canceled routes. This might be a bit of an overestimate in that some passengers will use the alternative service. But, obviously, if too many do, or the articulated buses keep breaking down, there will not be sufficient capacity. As one person said on Ask Carole a year and a half ago "get ready to walk or drive."

[Buslover88]

Busjack, you seem to be consistently disagreeing with everyone except for Buslover- even if he makes a mistake.

Well, BusExpert, i'm only expressing my opinion about this, i'm not making any mistakes.

And Buslover I don't think expressing his misguided opinion is anything to report because he didn't make any person attacks against any of us nor was he in any way using hateful language to any of us.

I'm not talking about only one person, i'm talking to anybody who's acting racist in every topic.

My only question at this point is, if the cuts go through and the entire north side is thrown into chaos (which is what will happen - do you expect all these people to crush the Red Line?) would there be any means to add extra bus service to satisfy what will undoubtedly be insane demand on nearby routes that head downtown?

Getting back to the topic, and to be responsible, any answer to this would have to be tempered by what happens as mentioned in the Legislative Update. We still need action by the Senate and Governor. However, based on the last two gubernatorial bailouts, I don't think this would be a situation where the Gov. waits 60 days to decide how to deal with a bill. By the way, I am hedging my bets, with one response I would put on Ask Carole if the cuts happen, and another on Wikipedia if they do not. Anyway, anything can happen (except that any bill that passes won't have effective RTA reforms, but just window dressing).

The premise of the cuts is that 2400 employees and 738 buses will not be on the street. Thus, the only way there theoretically could be additional service is, if, for instance, articulateds are taken off the LSD routes and put on heavy local ones, like 22. Other than that, I can't see additional service happening, unless the stalemate went so long that the transit authorities felt that they had made their political point. Remember that the 1981 statemate lasted 2 years; according to Chicago Transit and Railfan, most suburban service, then run by the private companies under contract with the RTA, was suspended for varying periods (see the Suburban Bus Routes History page, and click on the 300s links).

The CTA and Pace budgets assume that they will not collect the fares on the canceled routes. This might be a bit of an overestimate in that some passengers will use the alternative service. But, obviously, if too many do, or the articulated buses keep breaking down, there will not be sufficient capacity. As one person said on Ask Carole a year and a half ago "get ready to walk or drive."

I agree to all of this. I also think that the north side will in fact go insane if doomsday happens.

[Busjack]

I also think that the north side will in fact go insane if doomsday happens.

Nuts on Clark! (Is it still there? Channel 7 took over their space downtown.)

[Buslover88]

Nuts on Clark! (Is it still there? Channel 7 took over their space downtown.)

Nice joke .

[BusExpert32]

I've said that anything can happen and probably will.

Yes, that is a very nice phrase, but Doomsday won't happen. It's not officially a "done deal" as of now, but it will be. Also, here's another phrase: anything that will be a disaster right after it begins won't happen (Doomsday = disaster = won't happen). It seems like no one agrees with me about these so-called Doomsdays. I mean, it seems like everyone is waiting for Doomsday to come already, and everyone's satisfied with Doomsday occuring. And when one is postponed, the discussion automatically turns to the next Doomsday. But we'll just have to wait and see....

[Guest]

Well, BusExpert, i'm only expressing my opinion about this, i'm not making any mistakes.

I'm not talking about only one person, i'm talking to anybody who's acting racist in every topic.

I agree to all of this. I also think that the north side will in fact go insane if doomsday happens.

Blago is a is a sucker! He was going to give in some how. But of course he is going to make some enemies now. So he will get in good with the seniors by giving them free riding privliges. In a way its better because now the seniors wont be holding up the buses anymore when they get on, also they never have their fares ready when they board.

[jajuan]

Blago is a is a sucker! He was going to give in some how. But of course he is going to make some enemies now. So he will get in good with the seniors by giving them free riding privliges. In a way its better because now the seniors wont be holding up the buses anymore when they get on, also they never have their fares ready when they board.

That was the first thought that came to mind when I heard about it tonight after work.

[Buslover88]

Yes, that is a very nice phrase, but Doomsday won't happen. It's not officially a "done deal" as of now, but it will be. Also, here's another phrase: anything that will be a disaster right after it begins won't happen. It seems like no one agrees with me about these so-called Doomsdays.

I totally disagree with this post. First of all, how do you know Doomsday WON'T happen? Tell me that. Second, nobody agrees with you because you really don't know if Doomsday will happen or not. Also, Doomsday isn't "so-called".

I mean, it seems like everyone is waiting for Doomsday to come already, and everyone's satisfied with Doomsday occuring. And when one is postponed, the discussion automatically turns to the next Doomsday.

Nobody's satisfied with no Doomsday. If they are, don't you even say that about me because I am totally outraged about it. Also, anybody can make a topic on whatever they want, as long as it pertains to what's going on or happened in bus/raill history, but that's obvious.

[BusExpert32]

I totally disagree with this post. First of all, how do you know Doomsday WON'T happen? Tell me that. Second, nobody agrees with you because you really don't know if Doomsday will happen or not. Also, Doomsday isn't "so-called".

Nobody's satisfied with no Doomsday. If they are, don't you even say that about me because I am totally outraged about it. Also, anybody can make a topic on whatever they want, as long as it pertains to what's going on or happened in bus/raill history, but that's obvious.

How do you know that Doomsday WILL happen?- and it hasn't. Well, disputing this is no longer neccesary as Doomsday has all ready been called off yesterday. If you don't want to listen to me, well then you'll just have to see it and then believe it. And it's all ready occured; therefore, my preaching the sermon of 'no doomsday' has not gone to waste. I don't care if you agree or disagree, but when the Doomsday date arrives, there will always be a solution for funding.

[exitzero]

How do you know that Doomsday WILL happen?- and it hasn't. Well, disputing this is no longer neccesary as Doomsday has all ready been called off yesterday. If you don't want to listen to me, well then you'll just have to see it and then believe it. And it's all ready occured; therefore, my preaching the sermon of 'no doomsday' has not gone to waste. I don't care if you agree or disagree, but when the Doomsday date arrives, there will always be a solution for funding.

Erm...

Let's ask the CTA what they think about it:

http://www.transitchicago.com/

Don't see any press releases stating that Doomsday's not coming. All I see are warnings that the city is going to lose half of its bus service in a little over 8 days.

The clock's still running, folks. And it will continue to run until a funding bill is passed. This bill isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread but it is a step in the right direction.

Regardless, though, it's worthless if it isn't passed. And the CTA isn't taking any chances. So Doomsday is very much NOT called off.