CTA roll sign...

[Wolfman]

Would our forum historians like to prognosticate specifically when this roller curtain became effective?

KEDZIE - Circa 1973/74.

It was originally a Kedzie sign, and the Lawndale readings were spliced in. Notice the routes that follow 17 Westchester. It's a Lawndale splice. About that time, the 148 Monroe Parking and 149 Michigan - State - Wacker readings were removed (Dec 1974) and the new "Stateliner" and "Streeterville" readings were added (formerly Ohio - Union Station). Later added (1975) were the new 120, 121, and 125 readings.

The KIMBALL - HOMAN readings were screened by CTA and began use in Feb 1970. It was added much later than the original signs were screened, and done in that tiny Dennison "stencil" as were the newer signs for Forest Glen and 69th from 1970. The route combined the old 82 Kimball and the 82A Kedzie - Homan.

.............................................................................................................

I think Lawndale closed down in 1974 or 75 to become a Maintenance Training Center. It was called TABEC.

Lawndale later reopened as an operating facility after the Old Kedzie garage explosion.

[Wolfman]

Speaking of necroposts...

before 1972, the route numbers generally were not on the side signs (the only exceptions that I remember being 2A Hyde Park Express and 5A Jeffery Express).

Some did. Some did not.

CTA started putting route numbers on side signs as early as 1961. Maybe 1963.

You have a good eye! The garages I could tell got numbered side signs early was 52nd Street, North Avenue, Lawndale, and Kedzie. 77th had some rare ones made that oddly were put in the 500s and 600s they ran.

In 1965, with the orders for the 3000 series New Look Flxibles. These buses came with brand new Transign roler curtains installed. 3000 - 3244 were hand crank. 3300s on had electric powered head signs. It became standard for CTA side signs to have route numbers on the side signs for the most part.

[Wolfman]

Does anyone have any pics of 103rd Garage Routes Roll Sign?

I might.

I'll look.

[Wolfman]

ADDISON-WOLCOTT was probably only on the FG buses. Maybe the NP buses didnt have them.

Keeler.

NP nor FG ever had short turn signs for Wolcott.

[Wolfman]

I respectfully offer that that roller curtain is from the late 1960s.

When CTA opened the West-Northwest extension to Jefferson Park in 1970, every bus assigned to Forest Glen got new roller curtains, including the few Mack buses still on the roster. (One time, riding with my dad to the Ravenswood data processing center of the Chicago & North Western Railroad, we caught a Mack bus on #81 Lawrence, and it had the newer {than that sign} roller curtains, with both the white on black, and the black on yellow side route signs.)

Nice try.

Actually, the signs you speak of (Forest Glen) were screened and patched together in very late 1969 in anticipation of the Milwaukee Line extensions to Jefferson Park. CTA made those. Yellow signs were supposed to designate rail feeders, but this became expensive and redundant, and CTA dropped that idea (for side signs) by 1972.

Jerry's North Park sign is DEFINITELY a 1973 Transign from the 74/7500s. So, chronologically, it's newer.

[Guest]

Im looking for a North ave Garage roll sign. Ill pay generous for it.

[MRCTA]

Heres an old CTA roll sign that I picked up over the weekend. I still havent looked through the whole sign but it looks North Park bus routings. I had never thought a "150" route existed. This looks about late 60s or early 1970s.

Where'd you get that CTA roll sign from? Looks interesting!

[Wolfman]

ADDISON-WOLCOTT.

I distinctly remember Addison short turning there when I was growing up.

I always thought that was discontinued at the same time the downtown service was cut.

HA! I did some digging around tonight in my rollsigns. I have a destination sign from a KEELER 500/600/1400.

Yes, it has the WOLCOTT reading on it.

Why Wolcott? It's PM feeder service out of the Ravenswood "L". As you might imagine, back in the day, there was a lot of transfer off the Ravenswood (n.k.a. Brown Line), so Motor Coach sent eastbound 52s (n.k.a. 152) to Wolcott only to turn back and be empty for the Rapid Transit riders. Some went only as far east as Western to servive Lane Tech, Riverview, and WGN westbound. Addison was a pretty heavy hitter back in the day. Figure it had Express AND Limited supplement routes as well!

[Guest]

Where'd you get that CTA roll sign from? Looks interesting!

Found it on Ebay

[STLLKW]

Anyone know where I can get one of those old destination rolls? Side or front. Prefer NP. Reply to LKW721@hotmail.com

[Piesciuk]

The destination signs were usually made out of cloth (older) or mylar (newer). The Illinois Railway Museum has sold some in the past and if you (or anyone else on this list) let me know what you are interested in, I can let you know what we currently have available. I can be reached via email at:

RPiesciuk@irm.org

Thanks,

Ray Piesciuk

[andrethebusman]

I can only say that the one 5750 displayed is of a vintage that was sold off by the CTA in 1976. I had success the first time I tried in 1976, but the second time was a flop. One would assume that they did about the same thing when the New Looks or more recently, the Old Flyers went to junk, but since those signs were used for about 13-19 years instead of the 3 years indicated for the prior set, they probably would have been all dirty and torn up by then.

Hence, it is unlikely that the CTA kept essentially junk, except to decorate its offices. I believe I saw one in some of the news footage of the union leaders going somewhere or the other. If you want to buy something like that now, it is probably eBay or some hobby shop. However, I'm not giving up my 69 Garage side roller.

________________________________________

Speaking of necroposts, I just came across PudgyM's one with the picture of, undoubtedly correct, Kedzie roller. However, that roller essentially was from a 1300 series New Look from 1972-1976. The 120s were pasted in when those routes started, 1975, according to Chicago Transit and Railfan. Similarly, 157 Ohio Union Station because 157 Streeterville, and 149 Michigan State Wacker became 149 Stateliner about that time.* In 1976, all buses would have received the all Helvetica signs. Conversely, before 1972, the route numbers generally were not on the side signs (the only exceptions that I remember being 2A Hyde Park Express and 5A Jeffery Express).

You should also note that Pudgy's has both the 120s, and the 158s which preceded them. The two would not have coexisted on a new sign after 1976.

*A link to a picture of the type of bus at issue between 1972 and 1976 on busdrawings.com was previously posted here. I apologize to whomever posted that link for my being too lazy to acknowledge it properly.

A bit of sign history:

In 1969-1970, because of Kennedy/Dan Ryan changes, Forest Glen buses all got new signs front and side. North Av got new side signs, but fronts only modified for 86, 85. Limits only got a couple of new front signs added for 151. Keeler got new sides, fronts minimally altered. North Park some new fronts, mostly altered, all new sides, Beverly all new fronts and sides, 77th some new fronts and sides, mostly altered. 69th all new fronts and sides, 52nd minimal change to fronts only, Archer no changes. Lawndale minimal changes to fronts and sides (though in a real odd twist, almost all Lawndale 3300's got VERY OLD front signs that had been in 3400-series Whites in the 1950's!).

After new Helvetica signs were put in 1976-77, most old ones were put in three large bins at South Shops, which I bought. Sold several hundred, dumped the rest in 1982 after basement flood except for a couple of dozen which I gave away when I moved to New York for a while to John LeBeau, who as far as I know still has them.

[andrethebusman]

HA! I did some digging around tonight in my rollsigns. I have a destination sign from a KEELER 500/600/1400.

Yes, it has the WOLCOTT reading on it.

Why Wolcott? It's PM feeder service out of the Ravenswood "L". As you might imagine, back in the day, there was a lot of transfer off the Ravenswood (n.k.a. Brown Line), so Motor Coach sent eastbound 52s (n.k.a. 152) to Wolcott only to turn back and be empty for the Rapid Transit riders. Some went only as far east as Western to servive Lane Tech, Riverview, and WGN westbound. Addison was a pretty heavy hitter back in the day. Figure it had Express AND Limited supplement routes as well!

In the days of 8500's Addison had following signs:

Addison-Cumberland

Addison-Harlem

Addison-Austin

Addison-Central

Addison-Cicero

Addison-Pulaski

Addison-St. Louis

Addison-Western

Addison-Wolcott

Addison-Lake Shore

Michigan-Walton

Michigan-Wacker

Michigan-Randolph

Downtown

via Stockton Addison-Cumberland

via Stockton Addison-Harlem

via Stockton Addison-Austin

via Stockton Downtown

Limited Addison-Cumberland

Limited Addison-Harlem

Limited Addison-Austin

Limited Michigan-Adams

Limited Michigan-Van Buren

Limited Downtown

Express Michigan-Adams

Express Michigan-Van Buren

Express Downtown

Some of there were very rarely if ever used. Cicero was EB pullin via Cicero-Diversey. Michigan-Van Buren was AM pullin via Van Buren-Aberdeen-Adams-Campbell-Jackson-Pulaski-Wrightwood-Keeler (had 126 Jackson-Pulaski and 53 Pulaski-Diversey signs for this!) Wolcott was via Wolcott-Patterson-Lincoln-Addison loop

[Busjack]

...69th all new fronts and sides, ..

If they did, they did a crummy job, at least on 55 55-Garfield. There was stuff like 55 Cicero with the type centered, instead of 55 to the left, and, at least in the early days, some 6 signs for Cicero (I don't remember if they were 6 Cicero-Archer, but probably were) The 55 Museum signs sure looked unchanged..

[Piesciuk]

We have all the readings for over 75 different CTA rollsigns out on IRM's CTA History site - http://irm-cta.org/

We hope to have more in the very near future.

[Busjack]

We have all the readings for over 75 different CTA rollsigns out on IRM's CTA History site - http://irm-cta.org/

We hope to have more in the very near future.

The circa 1960s for 69th would be after the Dan Ryan opening (hence 1969) in that it has readings for 55 Cicero, 55 55-St Louis, and does not have readings for 6 Garfield or Garfield Express. The notes about cloth and mylar indicate that Andre was incorrect about 69th getting all new signs.

However, from my memory, it is lacking readings for 55 55-Morgan (the original 55 west terminal, which remained a terminal for short turns, especially in late evening), and 45 Ashland-71, which would be for barn trips from downtown. It also doesn't have a reading for 55 MUSEUM, which was always the east terminal for either 55 55 Street or 55 Garfield-55.

[strictures]

In the days of 8500's Addison had following signs:

Addison-Cumberland

Addison-Harlem

Addison-Austin

Addison-Central

Addison-Cicero

Addison-Pulaski

Addison-St. Louis

Addison-Western

Addison-Wolcott

Addison-Lake Shore

Michigan-Walton

Michigan-Wacker

Michigan-Randolph

Downtown

via Stockton Addison-Cumberland

via Stockton Addison-Harlem

via Stockton Addison-Austin

via Stockton Downtown

Limited Addison-Cumberland

Limited Addison-Harlem

Limited Addison-Austin

Limited Michigan-Adams

Limited Michigan-Van Buren

Limited Downtown

Express Michigan-Adams

Express Michigan-Van Buren

Express Downtown

Some of there were very rarely if ever used. Cicero was EB pullin via Cicero-Diversey. Michigan-Van Buren was AM pullin via Van Buren-Aberdeen-Adams-Campbell-Jackson-Pulaski-Wrightwood-Keeler (had 126 Jackson-Pulaski and 53 Pulaski-Diversey signs for this!) Wolcott was via Wolcott-Patterson-Lincoln-Addison loop

You left out the Addison-Pueblo destination, when Chicago refused to use Cumberland as a street name.

[andrethebusman]

Heres an old CTA roll sign that I picked up over the weekend. I still havent looked through the whole sign but it looks North Park bus routings. I had never thought a "150" route existed. This looks about late 60s or early 1970s.

Circa 1974 CTA had a plan to give individual route numbers to all the Lake Shore Dr expresses that evolved into the very-different 1977 renumbering:

151 Sheridan Express to 151 Sheridan Express via Wilson

151 Outer Drive Express to 151 Sheridan Express via Foster

153 Wilson-Michigan Express - no change

153 Wilson-Outer Drive Express to 154 Marine-Michigan Express

156 Wilson-LaSalle Express - no change

156 LaSalle-Sheridan Express to 150 Sheridan-LaSalle Express

Both North Park and Limits 7400's had the new signs, but they also had the old route signs, which is what was used until 1977.

[andrethebusman]

You left out the Addison-Pueblo destination, when Chicago refused to use Cumberland as a street name.

You are right - Addison was Addison-Pueblo, while West Irving Park, Foster/Lawrence and Belmont were at first Cumberland, then in 1977 to Pueblo, then a couple of years later all were changed to Cumberland

[andrethebusman]

Speaking of signs, Keeler, with only two basic routes, had a very long sign curtain as both Diversey and Addison had lots of readings, plus a couple of Sheridan (for 3 AM rush trips that went downtown to Adams/State as Addison Limiteds, deadheaded (a very rare thing in those days) north to Belmont/Broadway then went back south as 151's to Adams/Canal, then pulled in via Adams-Campbell-Jackson-Pulaski-Wrightwood-Keeler.

In 1970, a Keeler side sign had:

CHARTERED

SOLDIER FIELD

ADDISON

VIA STOCKTON

ADDISON-LIMITED

152 ADDISON

ADDISON-EXPRESS

151 SHERIDAN

OUTER DRIVE

EXPRESS

WILSON-MICHIGAN

EXPRESS (added circa February 1970, soon after installation)

153 WILSON-MICHIGAN

76 DIVERSEY

76 DIVERSEY (yellow)

DIVERSEY-WRIGHTWOOD

126 JACKSON-PULASKI

NOT IN SERVICE

Note also that originally Addison was supposed to continue operating to downtown all day after the Kennedy L opened, but at the last moment that was changed to have only minimal downtown service during rush hours. However, to compensate, 153 and Wilson-Michigan Express service was drastically increased (more than doubled) and North Park and Keeler started running on those routes, which previously had been almost exclusively Limits!

[andrethebusman]

While rooting about in the basement here at the domicile (looking for components and cables to reconnect the now 11-year-old Windows® 98 computer), I found this: A CTA bus side roller curtain.

It was probably obtained for me by my Uncle Willy, who was an operator at Kedzie garage. So I am deducing it is a Kedzie garage roll.

I will guess that this is from the late 1970s. What I found intriguing, and which may not display well on these photographs, was the mylar panels spliced [with transparent tape] into the fabric roll. "21 CERMAK" is mylar.

This is most likely CTA's first use of Helvetica font on its bus signage [the downtown routes - some which continue to this day]. Also notice the intermediate font displayed on "82 KIMBALL-HOMAN".

Would our forum historians like to prognosticate specifically when this roller curtain became effective?

This is from 1973, when all of Lawndale's routes went to Kedzie with Lawndale's closing. The sign shop copied a 3300's side sign, and spliced 20 Cermak at the top, the rest at the bottom, while removing the 1973 abandoned routes (7A, 127, 136, 148). Originally a Kedzie side from about 1969 would have had:

CHARTERED

SOLDIER FIELD

12 ROOSEVELT

52 KEDZIE-CALIFORNIA

7A HARRISON-ADAMS

7 HARRISON

85B CENTRAL LIMITED

85 CENTRAL

20 MADISON

128 WACKER-ORLEANS

127 JACKSON-INDEPENDENCE

126 JACKSON

126 JACKSON EXPRESS

131 WASHINGTON EXPRESS

136 DOUGLAS

148 MONROE PARKING

149 MICHIGAN-STATE-WACKER

157 OHIO-UNION STATION

158 WACKER-NO. WESTERN

158A WACKER EXPRESS

17 WESTCHESTER

NOT IN SERVICE

[andrethebusman]

The circa 1960s for 69th would be after the Dan Ryan opening (hence 1969) in that it has readings for 55 Cicero, 55 55-St Louis, and does not have readings for 6 Garfield or Garfield Express. The notes about cloth and mylar indicate that Andre was incorrect about 69th getting all new signs.

However, from my memory, it is lacking readings for 55 55-Morgan (the original 55 west terminal, which remained a terminal for short turns, especially in late evening), and 45 Ashland-71, which would be for barn trips from downtown. It also doesn't have a reading for 55 MUSEUM, which was always the east terminal for either 55 55 Street or 55 Garfield-55.

The funny thing was that in 1969 some new signs were mylar, some were cloth. Forest Glen had all cloth for instance, front and side. 69th was cloth front and mylar sides if I remember.

45 sb in the morning before May 1969 used 9 signs to 71st or 95th. The only 45 SB sign was 45 ASHLAND-95 via Loomis L Station, which was for PM trips. NB, however, had three: 45 ASHLAND DOWNTOWN via Loomis L Station (for AM rush), 45 ASHLAND-DOWNTOWN for PM rush, and 45 ASHLAND via Loomis L Station for Saturday AM rush. After May 1969, you only had two - 45 ASHLAND-DOWNTOWN and a new 45 ASHLAND-95

[Busjack]

The funny thing was that in 1969 some new signs were mylar, some were cloth. Forest Glen had all cloth for instance, front and side. 69th was cloth front and mylar sides if I remember.

45 sb in the morning before May 1969 used 9 signs to 71st or 95th. The only 45 SB sign was 45 ASHLAND-95 via Loomis L Station, which was for PM trips. NB, however, had three: 45 ASHLAND DOWNTOWN via Loomis L Station (for AM rush), 45 ASHLAND-DOWNTOWN for PM rush, and 45 ASHLAND via Loomis L Station for Saturday AM rush. After May 1969, you only had two - 45 ASHLAND-DOWNTOWN and a new 45 ASHLAND-95

If you want to roll my memory, probably it used an Ashland-71 sign without any route number. But there were definitely runs to 71 from downtown.

Update: On further review, the IRM exhibit does include the generic Ashland-71 sign (twice), so I withdraw that criticism. On the other hand, it is still short readings for 55.

[Piesciuk]

If you want to roll my memory, probably it used an Ashland-71 sign without any route number. But there were definitely runs to 71 from downtown.

Update: On further review, the IRM exhibit does include the generic Ashland-71 sign (twice), so I withdraw that criticism. On the other hand, it is still short readings for 55.

The rollsign readings on the website were transcribed directly from rollsigns in the museum's collection. When we had more than one from a particular garage, we chose one of those. Every one is not necessarily exactly the same as another. Don't know who you are "criticizing".

[Busjack]

The rollsign readings on the website were transcribed directly from rollsigns in the museum's collection. When we had more than one from a particular garage, we chose one of those. Every one is not necessarily exactly the same as another. Don't know who you are "criticizing".

Because "55 Museum" was always a terminal on 55, so somehow you got a sign that is missing readings. Maybe when CTA spliced in readings for the extension resulting from the Dan Ryan restructuring they threw out too much of the old sign on that roll.

The 1969 Dan Ryan Edition map confirms that the east terminal was Museum:

I also said that even after the Dan Ryan changes, there was still a short terminal at 55-Morgan (technically Garfield-Morgan, but that's what the sign said). The continued existence of the short terminal is confirmed by this 1980 map:

I thought there was a similar problem with 45, but maybe Andre explained that. But I lived 10 stories above 55th Street at the time at issue, so I sure know what signs the 55 bus had.