I -294 service plan?

[rotjohns]

According to Wronski, 655 and 899 have just bit it (effective Mar. 5) and 755 is being cut back. I guess the story about "these were separate grants" didn't wash, in that they were given only 3 months to develop ridership, but didn't.

I hope that Keeshin didn't have too much invested in them. Update: 855 gets another trip out of this (Passenger Notice), so modify my prior sentence accordingly.

Not a surprise. Based on earlier comments stating ridership was averaging about 3-6 riders per trip just wasn't gonna cut it. 899 at times didn't even have riders at all. People in the SW burbs are just used to taking the "L" or Metra to Rosemont, and that's if they go all the way out there at all. It does look like the response in Plainfield to downtown has been great though, enough for a need to add a morning/afternoon trip.

[west towns]

According to Wronski, 655 and 899 have just bit it (effective Mar. 5) and 755 is being cut back. I guess the story about "these were separate grants" didn't wash, in that they were given only 3 months to develop ridership, but didn't.

I hope that Keeshin didn't have too much invested in them. Update: 855 gets another trip out of this (Passenger Notice), so modify my prior sentence accordingly.

[west towns]

Pace must have a bad luck cloud over its head first with the budget cuts, the RTA and now this

[Busjack]

Pace must have a bad luck cloud over its head first with the budget cuts, the RTA and now this

Not necessarily. You should remember that I had doubts about the expressway plan, and especially about the HOV one.

For that matter, for what are they going to use the 11 OTRs? I know that some of them are supposed to go on the 655/755/855 contract, but with 2 freed up by killing 355 to downtown, and 655 dead, there seems to be a potential surplus

Finally, with cutbacks in the Rosemont area, one might have the feeling that there were not really the jobs in Elk Grove to which people in Harvey and Blue Island wanted to ride the bus.

[rotjohns]

Not necessarily. You should remember that I had doubts about the expressway plan, and especially about the HOV one.

For that matter, for what are they going to use the 11 OTRs? I know that some of them are supposed to go on the 655/755/855 contract, but with 2 freed up by killing 355 to downtown, and 655 dead, there seems to be a potential surplus

Finally, with cutbacks in the Rosemont area, one might have the feeling that there were not really the jobs in Elk Grove to which people in Harvey and Blue Island wanted to ride the bus.

And don't forget, later this year United Airlines is supposed to move downtown. Which is gonna affect one of the Rosemont routes 223. Look for that route to undergo changes.

[trainman8119]

Funny, earlier in the post, I gave em 6 months. They really wasted the money this time...just 2, wow !!!!

[Busjack]

Funny, earlier in the post, I gave em 6 months. They really wasted the money this time...just 2, wow !!!!

Well, actually 3. The question, though, is whether they actually saved any money, gave some of a federal grant back, were able to apply the money to something else, or, as you imply, blew a year grant in 3 months. I guess we'll never know.

Update: The Pace press release, apparently on which the Daily Herald article cited below relies, says "We are working with RTA in hopes of being able to redirect some of the remaining funds in order to defray any possible unexpected fixed route or paratransit funding shortfalls during this year...."

[Busjack]

Here is possibly another unanswerable. According to the Daily Herald, "Routes 655, 889 and 755 only brought in 64 average daily riders combined." If there were enough to keep 3 runs each way on 755 (half of the service), how many riders were actually on 655 and 889?

[PACE 834]

Here is possibly another unanswerable. According to the Daily Herald, "Routes 655, 889 and 755 only brought in 64 average daily riders combined." If there were enough to keep 3 runs each way on 755 (half of the service), how many riders were actually on 655 and 889?

I don't have figures on the 889 or 755,but the 655 had 5 regular riders,3 riding to NWTC(Schaumburg)and 2 riding to The Westin in Itasca. :(

[jajuan]

Funny, earlier in the post, I gave em 6 months. They really wasted the money this time...just 2, wow !!!!

Investing in finding ways to draw in ridership isn't a waste of money. So a couple of the routes didn't work out. At least, they were smart enough to end an experiment that wasn't working than put more money into it when it became clear it wasn't working. Like it or not, finding ways to enhance ridership costs money, and sometimes experiments in how to improve service is needed if a transit agency expects to survive and move forward. Population demographics don't stand still so transit can't afford to stand still either. Yes money is tight these days, but we can't become so cynical that we want to sit and do nothing because it will cost money. Interesting how projects are a waste of money when it's found the experiment doesn't work for the situation involved, but is a stroke of genious when the experiment does work.

[Busjack]

...Yes money is tight these days, but we can't become so cynical that we want to sit and do nothing because it will cost money. Interesting how projects are a waste of money when it's found the experiment doesn't work for the situation involved, but is a stroke of genious when the experiment does work.

One thing I note is that the original rfp for 889 (which was not awarded on the original date of March 2009) was that the operator could provide a coach or a paratransit. One would think the latter would have been sufficient to see if there was initial growth.

However, the only thing I know of that started that way (as a van service) was the Shuttle Bug. I suppose that one could argue that not too much was wasted on this because an empty bus was not allowed to leave Alsip, and one would have to pay a driver anyway, but I still think that the start small way is the way to go, until some market gets established.

[jajuan]

One thing I note is that the original rfp for 889 (which was not awarded on the original date of March 2009) was that the operator could provide a coach or a paratransit. One would think the latter would have been sufficient to see if there was initial growth.

However, the only thing I know of that started that way (as a van service) was the Shuttle Bug. I suppose that one could argue that not too much was wasted on this because an empty bus was not allowed to leave Alsip, and one would have to pay a driver anyway, but I still think that the start small way is the way to go, until some market gets established.

Yes perhaps. You just don't want too risk going too small because you might defeat the purpose of the goal you're hoping to reach. It just shows that the issue is a lot more complicated than some of us look at it at times.

[Busjack]

I was going to add that the market survey for I-355 was advertised after 655 was instituted. So, you have to wonder how much research they did before getting the grant. One would have to compare it to the two years it took to do the South Cook restructuring

You could probably add to that how much research was done before the Compobus/HOV application, and how that would have looked after killing 889 if it had lasted that long?

[MetroShadow]

Investing in finding ways to draw in ridership isn't a waste of money. So a couple of the routes didn't work out. At least, they were smart enough to end an experiment that wasn't working than put more money into it when it became clear it wasn't working. Like it or not, finding ways to enhance ridership costs money, and sometimes experiments in how to improve service is needed if a transit agency expects to survive and move forward. Population demographics don't stand still so transit can't afford to stand still either. Yes money is tight these days, but we can't become so cynical that we want to sit and do nothing because it will cost money. Interesting how projects are a waste of money when it's found the experiment doesn't work for the situation involved, but is a stroke of genious when the experiment does work.

It's also the effect of the economy. What happened here wasn't money and time wasted, but mainly that we're still in a recession. Had the economy of the 90's moved over to the previous decade, the ridership demand would've matched. However, things like this does happen (to concur with the statement); and perhaps if things improve, the grants could be put back in play.

[trainman8119]

Part of my contention is this. If you can't afford to operate the service you currently have, why are you contemplating any type of expansion. Remember, the CTA just cut 19% of their service because they are broke. Pace reduced and combined and Metra, as usual, is whining that they are broke and are cutting everything but service. If the feds want to aid public transit, they should not be putting money into projects that can't be operational because of lack of funds...the money should just be given to operate and left there. If things perk up, then fine, but until then give it up !!!!

[rotjohns]

Part of my contention is this. If you can't afford to operate the service you currently have, why are you contemplating any type of expansion. Remember, the CTA just cut 19% of their service because they are broke. Pace reduced and combined and Metra, as usual, is whining that they are broke and are cutting everything but service. If the feds want to aid public transit, they should not be putting money into projects that can't be operational because of lack of funds...the money should just be given to operate and left there. If things perk up, then fine, but until then give it up !!!!

I agree with that. But Pace did make a really smart move by sending the 855 to Plainfield, a city that doesn't have public transportation options. Depending on location, residents either have to drive to Joliet train station, or drive to park-n-rides, then take a shuttle bus (sometimes an old Orion) to the route 59 train station, then take the train downtown. Too much hassle to me. That's been an exceptional route for years (I've rode it a couple of times, it's great) and most people want to get downtown without driving too far in their cars. So I'd be for those types of expansions, but not the ones that create new routes, especially to areas that have been slammed with layoffs like Elk Grove Village and Schaumburg. In today's times, if it ain't heading downtown, it ain't gonna work.

[jajuan]

Part of my contention is this. If you can't afford to operate the service you currently have, why are you contemplating any type of expansion. Remember, the CTA just cut 19% of their service because they are broke. Pace reduced and combined and Metra, as usual, is whining that they are broke and are cutting everything but service. If the feds want to aid public transit, they should not be putting money into projects that can't be operational because of lack of funds...the money should just be given to operate and left there. If things perk up, then fine, but until then give it up !!!!

I'm not saying expand just for the sake of expanding. Yes Pace did cut back on service that wasn't working for it anymore, but the agency still has to look forward if it's going to have prospects of still being around longterm. The premise of what I said is have the flexibility to change with the changing demographics around you, and again doing that is not free. It takes money. Now as pointed out the 855 extension was a smart move because of the lack of public transit options in Plainfield. And I'd pose it to you that they wouldn't have known if they weren't willing to make the attempt. Now we know it takes years to plan and get new transit initiatives up and running. As mentioned, the routes that didn't make it had the misfortune of getting off the ground in the midst of a recession which of course is going to have some effect if there are less jobs that people would have a need to get to. As for the CTA, since the sky has not fallen after those cuts, maybe they were 19% overbloated.

[Busjack]

...Now we know it takes years to plan and get new transit initiatives up and running. As mentioned, the routes that didn't make it had the misfortune of getting off the ground in the midst of a recession which of course is going to have some effect if there are less jobs that people would have a need to get to. As for the CTA, since the sky has not fallen after those cuts, maybe they were 19% overbloated.

Again, easier in reverse order, I'm not convinced that the CTA engaged in the sort of ridership data analysis that I previously suggested, while the Pace budget indicates that they made some effort in that regard.

As far as using grants, I sort of have the feeling that the reason we did not see CTA implement last year's list of ICE projects (i.e. 31, 83, except for the extension of 67) was for the indicated reason of how can they cut service systemwide while implementing something else.

As far as the merits of using grants when times are tight with regard to operating money, one has to wonder if the federal grants were properly prioritized, in that the BRT one had the flaws, noted at the time, of how there could be prepaid areas on somewhere like Jeffery, or parking banned in Greektown, before the grant got shot down on the parking tax condition, or the Pace-Tollway HOV plan, of which I noted several flaws before it was shot down by silent omission from the TIGER list.

I'll stick with my prior point that some customer surveying, and definitely surveying of employers is necessary to justify these trials. At least with regard to the Shuttle Bugs, there were employers willing to "pay the fares," and with regard to 714 and 696, there were college students willing to make a beef. I again wonder whether any similar research was done before instituting 655 and 889, even though one can assume that actual ridership would be less than indicated in the surveys.

[west towns]

A few points to the discussion:

1) Pace did extensive outreach and market study as part of the South Cook/Will County restructuring look on their website under the restructuring,

2) Both corridors are part of Pace and RTA strategic plans, Vision 2020 and Moving Beyond Congestion

3) What about having local circulators from the park & ride stops as part of the 'last mile' outlined in Vision 2020 plan. Was this a contributor to the lower ridership esp. on 655?

4) How do we know there was no business outreach? Pace does have a business development department.

[Busjack]

A few points to the discussion:

1) Pace did extensive outreach and market study as part of the South Cook/Will County restructuring look on their website under the restructuring,

...

4) How do we know there was no business outreach? Pace does have a business development department.

1 is accepted. However, the burden of proof on 4 is on Pace, especially since two routes spectacularly failed (at least per the numbers given by Pace and Pace 834).

Looking at the tollway proposal, Section 3 talked about such things as Sears (where the last subscription route died), UPS (where several of the routes have or will have hearings), the Shuttle Bugs, O'Hare Expansion, and business in Rosemont, and that people in the southland were most affected by the economic downturn, but doesn't say anything about whether (1) they surveyed employers, especially around Rosemont and Elk Grove Village, or (2) surveyed prospective employees in the south suburbs. Given that business outreach was announced for about two years before the 580s were implemented (and still failed), you would have thought they would have mentioned it here, to at least prove to the feds that the Tollway/Compobus plan was economically feasible.

Update: Not to mention that the "I-355 Express Bus Corridor Development Consulting Services" contract was advertised after Route 655 was instituted and its current status is "Opened, not yet Awarded." That's circumstantial evidence of something, more than likely that the survey was not taken before then.

[Busjack]

The February Minutes indicate that Pace did award the I-355 consulting contract, although not whether that was in spite of the then upcoming demise of 655.