Green Line Shuttle

[artthouwill]

This week, the Green Line has a midday shuttle in effect on the Ashland/63 Branch. All trains are through routed from Harlem to Cottage Grove with a shuttle train operating between Garfield and Ashland/63. They are doing midday work that has the Ashland branch with single track service.

I have always advocated shuttle service on the south end during nonpeak hours with shuttle trains operating between Garfield and Cottage Grove with all through trains going to 63rd/Ashland. This way you don't have long gaps on the branches which cause low ridership which causes long gaps and so on.

[RJL6000]

This week, the Green Line has a midday shuttle in effect on the Ashland/63 Branch. All trains are through routed from Harlem to Cottage Grove with a shuttle train operating between Garfield and Ashland/63. They are doing midday work that has the Ashland branch with single track service.

I have always advocated shuttle service on the south end during nonpeak hours with shuttle trains operating between Garfield and Cottage Grove with all through trains going to 63rd/Ashland. This way you don't have long gaps on the branches which cause low ridership which causes long gaps and so on.

I have a completely different idea for the entire south portion of the Green Line: Reduce (though not eliminate) the number of through trains into the South Side during off-peak hours. My idea is to have every other train departing from Harlem/Lake short-turn around the Loop. I am, however, undecided as to whether the short-turns should use the Inner Loop (the routing now in use by Pink Line trains) or the Outer Loop (currently, no revenue trains turn southbound onto Wells from eastbound Lake although the Lake Line did so prior to 1969--and at the time, all trains traveled counterclockwise around the Loop, with the Lake trains assigned to the Inner Loop).

But then again, this idea might not work because the first stop southbound after the Loop, Roosevelt, is a heavily-patronaged transfer point between the Green, Red and Orange Lines. Orange Line trains cannot fully pick up the slack left behind by reduced Green Line service.

My alternative for the line would be a short-turn at Roosevelt. After all, there is a nonrevenue center track just to the south of the station which could be used for such short-turns.

As for your plan for a "Green Line Shuttle", it had been tried before--way back in the late 1980s or early 1990s, during the waning years of the old North-South Route. As an experiment (which might have lasted several months to a couple of years), on Sundays all through trains from downtown and the North Side went to the Englewood branch to Ashland-63, while shuttle service was provided on the former Jackson Park branch between the now-abandoned 58th Street station and the now-demolished University station.

[artthouwill]

I have a completely different idea for the entire south portion of the Green Line: Reduce (though not eliminate) the number of through trains into the South Side during off-peak hours. My idea is to have every other train departing from Harlem/Lake short-turn around the Loop. I am, however, undecided as to whether the short-turns should use the Inner Loop (the routing now in use by Pink Line trains) or the Outer Loop (currently, no revenue trains turn southbound onto Wells from eastbound Lake although the Lake Line did so prior to 1969--and at the time, all trains traveled counterclockwise around the Loop, with the Lake trains assigned to the Inner Loop).

I disagree. There is enough ridership along the SSM between downtown and Garfield to justify the current headways, though not nearly as heavy as the Lake branch anymore. The branch service is horrid. During peak periods you are looking at 16 minute headways on each branch, 20 minute headways during most off peak hours and late night and early evening Sundays 30 minute headways. Why put up with that when the 63rd bus can get you to the Red Line and the ride downtown would be faster. Besides, I still believe the area along the SSM is primed for regentrification not unlike what happened along the Brown Line. At least with my suggestion, 10 minute headways on the branches would be more appealing than 20, even with a two car shuttle consist along one of teh branches with a short wait at Garfield.

[RJL6000]

I disagree. There is enough ridership along the SSM between downtown and Garfield to justify the current headways, though not nearly as heavy as the Lake branch anymore. The branch service is horrid. During peak periods you are looking at 16 minute headways on each branch, 20 minute headways during most off peak hours and late night and early evening Sundays 30 minute headways. Why put up with that when the 63rd bus can get you to the Red Line and the ride downtown would be faster. Besides, I still believe the area along the SSM is primed for regentrification not unlike what happened along the Brown Line. At least with my suggestion, 10 minute headways on the branches would be more appealing than 20, even with a two car shuttle consist along one of teh branches with a short wait at Garfield.

You are right to disagree with me with regards to my first suggestion. The second paragraph of my (re-)edited post implies that such a plan would likely be unfeasible.

Also, read the last paragraph of my (re-)edited post. It indicates that such a plan of yours had been tried once before--even though it was on an experimental basis, and it applied only to Sunday service.

[artthouwill]

I don't remember that experiment. Could it have been during the time that the Jackson Pk line was shortened due to the Dorchester bridge being out and no turn around was on the branch thus "B" trains were turned back at 61st anyway? I know eventually they built a crossing east of the University station so that trains could at least cover most of the JAckson Pk branch. Besides with the heavy frequency on the Howard line I don't know how successful that would have been, and I'm sure someone could've easily brought up a racial aspect (though certainly that would not have been accurate).

I remember when Brown line trains turned back at Belmont on Sundays all day.

[RJL6000]

I remember when Brown line trains turned back at Belmont on Sundays all day.

Yes, I was riding the Ravenswood occasionally even back then (the 1980s and 1990s). In fact, for nearly half a century Ravenswood/Brown Line trains did not reach the Loop on Sundays--and the practice of terminating Ravenswood/Brown Line trains at Belmont all day on Sundays dated back to 1961. From 1952 (when the Sunday routing on the Rave was first shortened) to 1961, Ravenswood trains went as far south as Armitage (although that period was well before I was born). The current practice of running Brown Line trains to the Loop until midnight daily (including Sundays) and leaving only very late night and early Sunday morning runs ending at Belmont only dates back to October of 2000. Today, with the expanded Yellow Line (Skokie Swift) hours becoming permanent earlier this year, all of the current CTA rapid transit lines except the express portion of the Purple Line now operate seven days a week.

[jacksone44]

I disagree. There is enough ridership along the SSM between downtown and Garfield to justify the current headways, though not nearly as heavy as the Lake branch anymore. The branch service is horrid. During peak periods you are looking at 16 minute headways on each branch, 20 minute headways during most off peak hours and late night and early evening Sundays 30 minute headways. Why put up with that when the 63rd bus can get you to the Red Line and the ride downtown would be faster. Besides, I still believe the area along the SSM is primed for regentrification not unlike what happened along the Brown Line. At least with my suggestion, 10 minute headways on the branches would be more appealing than 20, even with a two car shuttle consist along one of teh branches with a short wait at Garfield.

It would be interesting to see the Cottage Grove branch extended further east to maybe Stony Island or the 63rd/Ashland Branch extended maybe to Evergreen Plaza? That could draw a lot of needed ridership on the green line.

[Busjack]

It would be interesting to see the Cottage Grove branch extended further east to maybe Stony Island or the 63rd/Ashland Branch extended maybe to Evergreen Plaza? That could draw a lot of needed ridership on the green line.

Will not happen. The reverend of the Apostolic Church of God‎* at 63rd and Dorchester also heads The Woodlawn Organization, which is the main development group in Woodlawn, and successfully lobbied to have it demolished. TWO or someone affiliated with them then built townhouses on 63rd east of Woodlawn Ave. I believe the city even kept its promise to repave 63rd. There was also a Tribune article a couple of years after that saying that the people west of Cottage Grove would have preferred that the L were torn down there too, because east of there, the problem with people hanging out at liquor stores and hiding in the darkness under the L had been solved, but not there.

Supposedly, there were plans to extend it west on 63rd Place, but you can probably imagine the neighborhood response to that.

I say that since 5750 discovered the carhouse at 63rd and Wabash, bring back the Blue Goose streetcars on 63rd, which is about as likely as extending the L.

_____________

*I call it the Church of No-L, a very popular Christmas song in Chicago.

[BusHunter]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear of the termination of service on the east 63rd branch all together. I think I read or heard something in the last month that they would be closing 61st yard soon, if it hasn't happened already. (not sure on that) Also King drive only boards inbound, so the outbound commuter only has the one station Cottage Grove to use on the branch. With all the cuts on the line since the 80's all indications are that in time the branch will probably be cut as well. Unfortunately that's what happens when you cut service with the loss in ridership.

[Busjack]

I think I read or heard something in the last month that they would be closing 61st yard soon, if it hasn't happened already. (not sure on that)

Chicago-L.org says that it hasn't been used for car storage since the Green Line was reopened, and I seem to recall someone posting that if a run starts at Cottage Grove, they have to take a train from the Englewood yard and back it across the junction at 59th.

The only thing that would keep the East 63rd Branch open is if there was some FTA service life requirement remaining on the King Dr. and Cottage Grove station rehabs, but I remember that the FTA did waive something to tear down the L east of there, and Chicago-L.org indicated that that also involved [then] recent work at Dorchester.

[artthouwill]

Chicago-L.org says that it hasn't been used for car storage since the Green Line was reopened, and I seem to recall someone posting that if a run starts at Cottage Grove, they have to take a train from the Englewood yard and back it across the junction at 59th.

The only thing that would keep the East 63rd Branch open is if there was some FTA service life requirement remaining on the King Dr. and Cottage Grove station rehabs, but I remember that the FTA did waive something to tear down the L east of there, and Chicago-L.org indicated that that also involved [then] recent work at Dorchester.

That's funny. I thought the CTA had to repay the federal government money for tearing down the L east of Cottage. I remember they rebuilt a structure east of University to Dorchester which was as far as the line was supposed to go. They decided not to rebuild the bridge over the IC tracks and there was even talk of connecting the proposed Dorchester station to the existing 63rd St Metra Electric station. As another poster indicated, Pastor Brazier of the Apostolic Church of God succeeded in having the L demolished east of Cottage Grove and then TWO had townhomes built along 63rd between Dorchester and Woodlawn.

I believe the FTA service life requirement is what caused the CTA to have to repay when that structure was torn down because it included the aforementioned newer structure. I don't know if any work was done on the University station during the 2 year rebuild to bring it into ADA compliance like King and Cottage. I would assume so if one were to assume the entire line was to reopen. When it did, there was still no decision on whether to keep the line extended or shortened to Cottage. It was shortened, but named East 63rd while awaiting a decision, which eventually led to them tearing down the structure east of Cottage.

Personally, I would love to see the line extended back to Jackson Park. I also know that no one east of Cottage on any street would favor a return of an elevated structure along the street. I haven't been in the area in a while and I don't recall an alley that you could rebuild a structure over. My idea would be to have the L descend east of Cottage into a subway under 63rd to Stony Island. There could be a station house to the south of Hyde Park high school (NW corner), but I would love for the west end of the station to be connected to the 63rd Street Metra station. As current, the Cottage Grove branch is a waste, so I believe it should either be extended, or done away with entirely. I believe the extension is the better idea due to its proximity to U of C and I also believe that this area is due for a regentrifying. The area between 61st and 63rd is ripe if the U of C wanted to expand.

[BusHunter]

Chicago-L.org says that it hasn't been used for car storage since the Green Line was reopened, and I seem to recall someone posting that if a run starts at Cottage Grove, they have to take a train from the Englewood yard and back it across the junction at 59th.

The only thing that would keep the East 63rd Branch open is if there was some FTA service life requirement remaining on the King Dr. and Cottage Grove station rehabs, but I remember that the FTA did waive something to tear down the L east of there, and Chicago-L.org indicated that that also involved [then] recent work at Dorchester.

They did store some #5-50's at 61st yard before they were retired along with #6719-20 in the late 90's. But I don't recall any other car storage there. With 100 cars on the green line, they have more space than equipment between the 3 yards and don't need it. What I heard wasn't about car storage but had to do with functions at the yard like shops and such. I thought I heard the last function to that yard had been moved perhaps to Skokie. So it's essentially dead space. I know they had a fire there a few years ago. I don't know what that wiped out. Unless they were speaking of the lower yard. I don't know.

[Busjack]

With 100 cars on the green line, they have more space than equipment between the 3 yards and don't need it.

Which gets me off on another tangent.

Reopening that yard would take some manpower, but there is similarly a surplus of space on the Pink Line (reports that 54th can hold 108 cars, but only 44 are needed for the Pink Line). In the meantime, the Kimball yard was not expanded. In addition to "Brownage" trains, would "Breen" or "Brink" ones make sense? Or were some critics right that the only point to the Brown Line project was to run longer trains less frequently?

Just wondering.

[artthouwill]

Which gets me off on another tangent.

Reopening that yard would take some manpower, but there is similarly a surplus of space on the Pink Line (reports that 54th can hold 108 cars, but only 44 are needed for the Pink Line). In the meantime, the Kimball yard was not expanded. In addition to "Brownage" trains, would "Breen" or "Brink" ones make sense? Or were some critics right that the only point to the Brown Line project was to run longer trains less frequently?

Just wondering.

If someone ever decides to build a United Center station on the Pink line, then the space at 54th yard could be used to add cars to run 8s on the Pink Line during UC events. Too bad the Purple Line Express doesn't have midday service, otherwise you could have Pinkple trains. But since there is also excess space at 63rd/Racine, how about Grownn trains?

I don't know how long this would last or how popular it would be, but suppose the SSM Green and Pink were through routed together (those trains could use either all cars 54th or all cars 63rd) and the Lake and Brown lines through routed together via outer loop tracks. Browns entering the loop would leave as Lakes and Lakes entering the Loop would leave as Browns. If all of the new Pink thru train cars were stored south, the the 54th yard could holdany cars that Harlem and Kimball could not (though I think Harlem could handle it).

However I'm still holding out hope for a southward Green extension along South Chicago one day whicch would justify keeping 61st yard, demolishing east 63rd L tracks and possibly reinstituing shuttle service on Ashland/63 during off peak hours.

[artthouwill]

Another scenario would be to through route Browns and Orange in this manner. "A" Brown line trains would run route as current. "B" Brown Line trains would run current route to Mart, then enter Loop via inner tracks and continue as Orange. All oranges enter the loop via outer tracks as Brown. Orange line would lose Van Buren/Wells service.

[geneking7320]

If someone ever decides to build a United Center station on the Pink line, then the space at 54th yard could be used to add cars to run 8s on the Pink Line during UC events. Too bad the Purple Line Express doesn't have midday service, otherwise you could have Pinkple trains. But since there is also excess space at 63rd/Racine, how about Grownn trains?

I don't know how long this would last or how popular it would be, but suppose the SSM Green and Pink were through routed together (those trains could use either all cars 54th or all cars 63rd) and the Lake and Brown lines through routed together via outer loop tracks. Browns entering the loop would leave as Lakes and Lakes entering the Loop would leave as Browns. If all of the new Pink thru train cars were stored south, the the 54th yard could holdany cars that Harlem and Kimball could not (though I think Harlem could handle it).

However I'm still holding out hope for a southward Green extension along South Chicago one day whicch would justify keeping 61st yard, demolishing east 63rd L tracks and possibly reinstituing shuttle service on Ashland/63 during off peak hours.

The idea of rapid transit on the old NY Central ROW has been bounced around for a while. Can anyone scarf up a link to map with proposed stations on it?

[BusHunter]

If someone ever decides to build a United Center station on the Pink line, then the space at 54th yard could be used to add cars to run 8s on the Pink Line during UC events. Too bad the Purple Line Express doesn't have midday service, otherwise you could have Pinkple trains. But since there is also excess space at 63rd/Racine, how about Grownn trains?

I don't know how long this would last or how popular it would be, but suppose the SSM Green and Pink were through routed together (those trains could use either all cars 54th or all cars 63rd) and the Lake and Brown lines through routed together via outer loop tracks. Browns entering the loop would leave as Lakes and Lakes entering the Loop would leave as Browns. If all of the new Pink thru train cars were stored south, the the 54th yard could holdany cars that Harlem and Kimball could not (though I think Harlem could handle it).

However I'm still holding out hope for a southward Green extension along South Chicago one day whicch would justify keeping 61st yard, demolishing east 63rd L tracks and possibly reinstituing shuttle service on Ashland/63 during off peak hours.

I was thinking something off similar lines possibly routing the east 63rd branch to align with the Metra Electric to either just connect to or run with. (like the Grey line) Or you could connect with the east 63rd leg extending diagonally along with the skyway to SE chicago. They could attract the east 79th, 87th and 71st crowds that have to connect now to the red line. Or they could construct a connector similar to the blue to pink line to route the southern leg of the green line to the southern leg of the red. Maybe send one line to 95th and one to the proposed 130th station. In that case a 61st yard could help with storing cars for the red line that could use some space at the south end and they wouldn't be so far away from Howard yard in case of an emergency. As far as the Pink line only holding 44 cars in a space for over a 100, I think that's one of the things Kruezi was looking at when he proposed the brink line. The Brown line is still busy with 8 cars, in the rush almost as frequent as the six car version. The Brown is consistantly growing with more and more ridership. Eventually they are going to run out of space, due to the increasing demand and the pink would give you another 50-60 cars to work with. They could run every other train to the Pink from Brown and just keep the rest as they run now. This way they could prevent themselves from running virtually empty trains on the Pink.

[Busjack]

If someone ever decides to build a United Center station on the Pink line, then the space at 54th yard could be used to add cars to run 8s on the Pink Line during UC events. Too bad the Purple Line Express doesn't have midday service, otherwise you could have Pinkple trains. But since there is also excess space at 63rd/Racine, how about Grownn trains?

I wasn't suggesting new routes, but just that the yards be better utilized. After getting through about 25% of the preceding posts, I got too confused.

I think I did previously endorse the "parallel to the Skyway" alternative.