CTA Bus Rapid Transit (take two)

[jajuan]

No one has committed to it, not wanting it per se.

On the airlines' part it would boil down to the same thing to a certain degree.

[Busjack]

Sun-Times has an article to the effect that Emanuel says cool your jets on the Ashland BRT, basically saying it is only in the discussion stage at this point.

Maybe to Streetsblog's chagrin (as reflected on the home page links), Emanuel had to say something to the community groups that were against banning nearly all left turns.

Anyway, he pointed out that downtown comes first, and as the article didn't say, CDOT actually has grants to do the Union Station-Washington corridor.

The consultants sure got to spend their planning grant on the Western Corridor, though.

[mkohut]

Sun-Times has an article to the effect that Emanuel says cool your jets on the Ashland BRT, basically saying it is only in the discussion stage at this point.

Maybe to Streetsblog's chagrin (as reflected on the home page links), Emanuel had to say something to the community groups that were against banning nearly all left turns.

Anyway, he pointed out that downtown comes first, and as the article didn't say, CDOT actually has grants to do the Union Station-Washington corridor.

The consultants sure got to spend their planning grant on the Western Corridor, though.

Whats a project without a consultant becoming richer.

I have read Streetsbldgs a couple of times.I think the guy name was John Greenfield and all he does is pushing The project with stuff like the Alderman of the 47 Ward favors it.You rarely see anything negative about it on there.

[jajuan]

Whats a project without a consultant becoming richer.

I have read Streetsbldgs a couple of times.I think the guy name was John Greenfield and all he does is pushing The project with stuff like the Alderman of the 47 Ward favors it.You rarely see anything negative about it on there.

Which is why I haven't read any of Streetblog's articles on Ashland BRT much lately. It's a bit too one sided on that project and seems to be in fantasy land on how they're looking at that particular project. There are some very legitimate concerns with this project, top among them being the required ban on left turns from Irving Park to 95th to keep the proposal in the center-lane form, how it'll affect the businesses on or near Ashland in the no left turn area, where the heck the extra traffic avoiding Ashland is supposed to go (only logical choice being Western) and the accompanying impact of that displaced traffic, and most importantly how it gets paid for. Streetblog just either glosses over those concerns or dismisses them out of hand by blindly quoting the effects of BRT from other cities. The big flaw each time though is the BRT lines they use in their counter arguments are mostly right-lane forms of BRT not center- or left-lane as Ashland BRT is supposed to be in CTA and CDOT's current proposal. What center-lane BRT lines they quote are operating on bus lanes or busways built into the center of a stretch of expressways in those specific cities. I don't think they've had yet to point to a BRT line operating on an arterial street that wasn't operated in a right positioned bus lane.

[Busjack]

....Streetblog just either glosses over those concerns or dismisses them out of hand by blindly quoting the effects of BRT from other cities. The big flaw each time though is the BRT lines they use in their counter arguments are mostly right-lane forms of BRT not center- or left-lane as Ashland BRT is supposed to be in CTA and CDOT's current proposal. What center-lane BRT lines they quote are operating on bus lanes or busways built into the center of a stretch of expressways in those specific cities. I don't think they've had yet to point to a BRT line operating on an arterial street that wasn't operated in a right positioned bus lane.

I think we all figured out Streetblog's bias and quit clicking.

I also pointed out earlier that if it ever got to the point where an application for funding could be made, if the Transportation Act stays the same, it has to meet the requirement of 49 U.S.C. 5302 and 5309 that it be separated from traffic and otherwise resemble LRT, except for using buses. The more talk about left turns over the busway, the less separated it is.

The project won't compete well for federal funding if the communities come out en masse in opposition at the scoping and environmental review hearings.

But when you point out BRT on a curb bus lane, that also brings up Emanuel's concern that the city will have to pay off the parking meter concessionaire for lost parking spots, although supposedly that concern was more present on Western than Ashland.

[mkohut]

While i think we all agree about Streetblog's bias.I did notice in Kevin news shows they are going to have a rally where John Greenfield is expecting thousands to show up.

What he fails to know is there a limit to the amount of people that can be there due to fire safety.But,also trying to buy support by free food.

If he is using the free food to get people to attend.He would be eating his own words since he isn't supporting local business besides the bar.Which is his argument for BRT..

[jajuan]

While i think we all agree about Streetblog's bias.I did notice in Kevin news shows they are going to have a rally where John Greenfield is expecting thousands to show up.

What he fails to know is there a limit to the amount of people that can be there due to fire safety.But,also trying to buy support by free food.

If he is using the free food to get people to attend.He would be eating his own words since he isn't supporting local business besides the bar.Which is his argument for BRT..

I think the Streetblog folks will find the support for BRT on Ashland won't be as high as it needs to be, especially among the business community along and near Ashland, so long as the proposal to knock out Ashland's left lane and left turn capability from Irving Park all the way down to 95th street stands. That in itself points to a big red flag that CTA yet again did not listen to the concerns of the surrounding community for one of its proposals as much as they claim. As I've said before, there is no way I believe a majority of business owners in the affected area bought into the center lane proposals more than the other two options and the number of business owners coming out against this voicing the very concerns I said should have popped up before the proposal was revealed backs up my thought.

[Busjack]

....and the number of business owners coming out against this voicing the very concerns I said should have popped up before the proposal was revealed backs up my thought.

That seems to be a consistent pattern, but probably the only thing really attributable to CTA is its willingness to post a consultant's preliminary results.

This is a common scenario--Durbin announces a planning grant, some foundation also chips in, the consultants spend $2 million, there is a work product for that money, the protests come out, someone has to tamp it down, and nothing gets built.

Nothing different from Carole Brown putting her cold water on the Airport Express or Skokie (including its mayor) turning out against the Yellow Line station on Niles North HS property.

Note that when CTA actually intends to build something, like the 95th St. bus terminal, while there is an environmental impact statement, there is not the same level of disregarding the community. Even with Wilson, the only debate was whether to preserve the terra cotta station.

On mik's point, there wasn't an indication from where Streetsblog bought the free food. I doubt that they farmed it themselves.

[mkohut]

That seems to be a consistent pattern, but probably the only thing really attributable to CTA is its willingness to post a consultant's preliminary results.

This is a common scenario--Durbin announces a planning grant, some foundation also chips in, the consultants spend $2 million, there is a work product for that money, the protests come out, someone has to tamp it down, and nothing gets built.

Nothing different from Carole Brown putting her cold water on the Airport Express or Skokie (including its mayor) turning out against the Yellow Line station on Niles North HS property.

Note that when CTA actually intends to build something, like the 95th St. bus terminal, while there is an environmental impact statement, there is not the same level of disregarding the community. Even with Wilson, the only debate was whether to preserve the terra cotta station.

On mik's point, there wasn't an indication from where Streetsblog bought the free food. I doubt that they farmed it themselves.

John Greenfield say Active Transportation was paying for the food.

[Busjack]

John Greenfield say Active Transportation was paying for the food.

But they still had to buy it from somewhere.

However, since you bring up Active Transportation Alliance, they seem to share Streetblog's views on things--they think they are accomplishing something, and definitely have an anti-vehicle position. But, as ATA indicated on the CTA Tattler, theirs is more along the line that they think they are accomplishing something.

[mkohut]

But they still had to buy it from somewhere.

However, since you bring up Active Transportation Alliance, they seem to share Streetblog's views on things--they think they are accomplishing something, and definitely have an anti-vehicle position. But, as ATA indicated on the CTA Tattler, theirs is more along the line that they think they are accomplishing something.

Groups like that are overrated.Why they want bike lanes on main streets where there is thousands on cars,buses,and trucks is beyond me.That is why there are bike paths on the lake and forest preserve for.

I forgot the Bloomington Trail that is going to be build.

[Busjack]

Groups like that are overrated.Why they want bike lanes on main streets where there is thousands on cars,buses,and trucks is beyond me.That is why there are bike paths on the lake and forest preserve for.

The issue there, and with stuff like the city supporting Divvy Bikes, is whether something provides a viable alternative means of commuting, not just recreational use you imply by mentioning forest preserves. I don't think driving into the central city is viable with high parking garage rates and taxes, as well as congestion, but bikers are going to be run over.

I once said that I would bike to downtown if someone provided a shower, but neither was really serious.

Maybe a more relevant criticism of these people (and especially in connection with Ashland) is that product has to be delivered to the merchants by some means, and making Ashland impassible to trucks or banning them from making left turns isn't going to make prices at your local Whole Foods Market any more reasonable.

[MetroShadow]

Groups like that are overrated.Why they want bike lanes on main streets where there is thousands on cars,buses,and trucks is beyond me.That is why there are bike paths on the lake and forest preserve for.

I'm sure I would want to bike to the store and go seven miles out of my way, go through the forest (preserve) and through my grandma's house just to get to where I need to go?

Mixed use traffic is the new normal, especially if I don't feel like driving everywhere. "Share the road" and all of that jazz.

[mkohut]

I'm sure I would want to bike to the store and go seven miles out of my way, go through the forest (preserve) and through my grandma's house just to get to where I need to go?

Mixed use traffic is the new normal, especially if I don't feel like driving everywhere. "Share the road" and all of that jazz.

I might be more critical of it because what happen to my brother.

Out of no where a car door open and he crash into the car door on Grand Ave.Lucky,he didn't get that bad hurt just the bike got total.

[jajuan]

I know if they call themselves trying to emulate Cleveland's HealthLine, which does operate with center bus lanes, they neglected the part where Cleveland didn't do away with left turn lanes on Euclid Avenue, which the HealthLine serves. Cleveland still found a way to balance operation of those bus lanes with regular traffic still being able to make left turns off it's Euclid Avenue by proper use and timing between the bus priority signals and the regular traffic signal. Leave it to CDOT and CTA management to ignore that detail.

[Busjack]

I know if they call themselves trying to emulate Cleveland's HealthLine, which does operate with center bus lanes, they neglected the part where Cleveland didn't do away with left turn lanes on Euclid Avenue, which the HealthLine serves. Cleveland still found a way to balance operation of those bus lanes with regular traffic still being able to make left turns off it's Euclid Avenue by proper use and timing between the bus priority signals and the regular traffic signal. Leave it to CDOT and CTA management to ignore that detail.

Having taken a tour of Cleveland about 10 years ago, a big chunk of Euclid Avenue goes through depopulated territory until you get to the Cleveland Clinic/Case Western Reserve University area. There is the remaining mansion here and there from the John D. Rockefeller era, but not much else. Probably the best analogy would be if there were a need for an IIT-U of C express via Indiana and Michigan. However, the #1 bus just bit it south of 35th.

Ashland basically doesn't have those kinds of areas until maybe south of Garfield. The neighborhoods that are complaining are on the near north part of Ashland. Maybe the city could clear out some lanes near the Medical District, but not around Ukrainian Village or whatever it is up around Ashland at the Division-Milwaukee subway station.

[jajuan]

Having taken a tour of Cleveland about 10 years ago, a big chunk of Euclid Avenue goes through depopulated territory until you get to the Cleveland Clinic/Case Western Reserve University area. There is the remaining mansion here and there from the John D. Rockefeller era, but not much else. Probably the best analogy would be if there were a need for an IIT-U of C express via Indiana and Michigan. However, the #1 bus just bit it south of 35th.

Ashland basically doesn't have those kinds of areas until maybe south of Garfield. The neighborhoods that are complaining are on the near north part of Ashland. Maybe the city could clear out some lanes near the Medical District, but not around Ukrainian Village or whatever it is up around Ashland at the Division-Milwaukee subway station.

Well I wasn't speaking in terms of type of neighborhood. I was speaking more on the similarities in terms of the HealthLine operating in a center lane configuration as proposed for Ashland BRT.

[Busjack]

Well I wasn't speaking in terms of type of neighborhood. I was speaking more on the similarities in terms of the HealthLine operating in a center lane configuration as proposed for Ashland BRT.

From maps, the layout appears similar, except that the boarding platforms seem to the right of the bus, instead of left handed boarding.

Trying to synthesize the points, there would be less resistance to banning left turns if there were not any businesses to serve on the left side of the street, which would mean that it would make more sense to ban them in Cleveland* than on Ashland.

In any event, the Cleveland Health Line was built before the recent definition of BRT in the 2012 law (49 U.S.C. 5302 and 5309), calling for separation from traffic.

___

*Although those maps indicate that there has been some development along Euclid.

[jajuan]

From maps, the layout appears similar, except that the boarding platforms seem to the right of the bus, instead of left handed boarding.

Trying to synthesize the points, there would be less resistance to banning left turns if there were not any businesses to serve on the left side of the street, which would mean that it would make more sense to ban them in Cleveland* than on Ashland.

In any event, the Cleveland Health Line was built before the recent definition of BRT in the 2012 law (49 U.S.C. 5302 and 5309), calling for separation from traffic.

___

*Although those maps indicate that there has been some development along Euclid.

Well actually I read on the following website describing the transition from the former Euclid Corridor service to the current HealthLine, http://www.rtahealthline.com/healthline-what-is.asp, that from Public Square to E. 105th, the stations are in the center of the median on Euclid. Beyond the E. 105th station, the stations are said to be curbside which would explain your seeing right side boarding platforms. The left side doors on the 21 DE60LFA BRT style artics would seem too be superfluous if none of the platforms were left side boarding. Wikipedia (I know you don't like that site as a source) has photos of Public Square under the Greater Cleveland RTA article verifying some of the stations allowing left side boarding.

[Busjack]

Well actually I read on the following website describing the transition from the former Euclid Corridor service to the current HealthLine, http://www.rtahealthline.com/healthline-what-is.asp, that from Public Square to E. 105th, the stations are in the center of the median on Euclid. Beyond the E. 105th station, the stations are said to curbside which would explain your seeing right side boarding platforms. The left side doors on the 21 DE60LFA BRT style artics would seem too be superfluous if none of the platforms were left side boarding.

They looked from the map like the platform was in the street, but right of the bus lane. See this from Google Maps.

It looks like that the platform is on the far side of the cross street, opposite where the left turn lane is on the near side of the cross street.

Like I said, I wasn't there. And maybe it is different at another intersection.

[jajuan]

They looked from the map like the platform was in the street, but right of the bus lane. See this from Google Maps.

It looks like that the platform is on the far side of the cross street, opposite where the left turn lane is on the near side of the cross street.

Like I said, I wasn't there. And maybe it is different at another intersection.

Yes at Euclid and E. 14th the platform is bidirectional with the bus lanes running on each side of the platform. Upon further looking at that website, it says Public Square to E. 14th are center positioned combined stations (bidirectional). Stations E. 19th to E 105th are center positioned still, but have two separate platforms one for each direction as what you were looking at for E. 59th. And those beyond E 105th are curbside platforms.

[Busjack]

Yes at Euclid and E. 14th the platform is bidirectional with the bus lanes running on each side of the platform. Upon further looking at that website, it says Public Square to E. 14th are center positioned combined stations (bidirectional). Stations E. 19th to E 105th are center positioned still, but have two separate platforms one for each direction as what you were looking at for E. 59th. And those beyond E 105th are curbside platforms.

The up to E 14th appears to be downtown (including the "Winfred Lauder building" of the Drew Carey show) and this map snapshot shows a bidirectional station. However, since it is in the downtown area, left turns would be restricted, anyway. I suppose that the E. 19th to E. 105th would be more analogous to allowing left turns on Ashland.

[jajuan]

The up to E 14th appears to be downtown (including the "Winfred Lauder building" of the Drew Carey show) and this map snapshot shows a bidirectional station. However, since it is in the downtown area, left turns would be restricted, anyway. I suppose that the E. 19th to E. 105th would be more analogous to allowing left turns on Ashland.

Yeah. But this still looks like they got it right in implementing center lane BRT without mucking up the rest of the traffic on the street too much; most importantly not restricting left turns from a major arterial street.

[Busjack]

Yeah. But this still looks like they got it right in implementing center lane BRT without mucking up the rest of the traffic on the street too much; most importantly not restricting left turns from a major arterial street.

That, as illustrated by the E 19th to E. 109th segment, depends on where you put the platforms. There, allowance is made for the left turn lanes by staggering the platforms. On the Ashland proposal, apparently the planters stay in the median where they were, and the platforms go where the left turn lanes used to be between the planters. Digging up the planters to put the platforms there certainly won't be consistent with Daley and Emanuel standards of urban aesthetics.

[mkohut]

While i hate giving Streestbldg and ATA the time of day.

I read the Streetbldg article for Oct 16.Between the 2 groups only 75 show up.

Which proves my point that these groups are overrated.

So much for John Greenfield wanting thousands to show up.